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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I think ultimately it just boils down to what kind of person you are. If I can tell the run isn't going the smoothest, I won't throw a fit or flame people because I'm a fairly relaxed/chilled out person and honestly, if the worst scenario I'm facing is a depleted key where I spend 10 minutes more than I need, that's a bullet I'm willing to take for the sake of staying for the group, making sure people get their key done. For the most part I'm just looking to do the key and in time VS out of time isn't the biggest issue, even though doing it in time is nicer ofc.

    Then there's people who play with a "me me me" mindset who couldn't care less about the people behind the screens in the group they are at. They'll leave 5 minutes into a key or fake DC, or start throwing insults around like you're at a daycare. It's just different mindsets people have that's all. I would say it's fair if you make it clear before starting the key that "I really want this in time or not at all" and if everyone in the group signs up for that notion, then leaving if things go terrible should be fine. But I feel like most of the pug keys you see fall under the "We aim to time it but if we don't let's finish it at least" umbrella and I still see a lot of people struggling with that.
    thats all depeends how you name your key htough

    if you name it "super hiper ultra push +++++++++++++" then ofc they leave

    if yu called it "it might be not in time " then they will likely stay till end even not timed. you may get people with 500 less score - but they will indeed stay forver. just to get depleted score.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    that mainly happens in lower dungeons though . why it happens ? because a lot of people gain " resonable score" from untimed runs.

    those are people whos score shoule be in relaity 1/3rd of what they have - but because blizzard is desperate to retain players now and gives point for untimed dungeons the sores of many many people are way overinflated.

    which later resoults in stupid wipes and group disbands.

    i suggest trying at least 19-20 bracket - as people there have atm corrct attitudes , knowledge about mechanics and exacution.

    bracket like 13-17 is absolute cesspool atm due to that overinflated scores and people who belive that just because they got score out of untimed runs they are owed to be able to be carried to 10x15 dungeons a week.
    The player power rewards stop at +15. Suggesting that players try a much more difficult bracket that does not offer increased player power is not a palatable solution.

  3. #523
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports toxic community behaviour.

    There's nothing special about clearing a m15. It's a little bit of skill and little bit of gear check, that's it. There's no purpose having it after a few weeks of expansion launch.

    On my first char it's fine because I'm somewhere around the top anyway. On my alts the system only annoys me.

    There's other ways to prevent abuse than to put a lockout on everyone.
    They should just remove the timer etc so ppl would play the game for fun again.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    This is already how the system works today... If you leave or kick someone and they 4man it, you are still eligible for loot, thats why you never ever continue a run.
    I think most m+ problems about leavers could be fixed by removing this nonsense, and then adding some kind of penalty if you leave within 20 (15?) minutes of starting the instance, or before three wipes. No penalties given to the second, third, or fourth person to drop group, and no penalties for being kicked (too complicated to add a penalty system).

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    I think most m+ problems about leavers could be fixed by removing this nonsense, and then adding some kind of penalty if you leave within 20 (15?) minutes of starting the instance, or before three wipes. No penalties given to the second, third, or fourth person to drop group, and no penalties for being kicked (too complicated to add a penalty system).
    There aren't any problems, and this would be worse than what we have.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    The player power rewards stop at +15. Suggesting that players try a much more difficult bracket that does not offer increased player power is not a palatable solution.
    and so what that it stops ?

    you want to play with better players to avoid keys being destoryed ? better players are atm at 20+ already . probably having easier time then most people in +15 pugs.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and so what that it stops ?

    you want to play with better players to avoid keys being destoryed ? better players are atm at 20+ already . probably having easier time then most people in +15 pugs.
    I could care less about keys being destroyed. I would like to see score correlate more accurately with practical player skill. Personally, I think that begins with increasing the difficulty at lower keys and making mistakes (eg., missing an interrupt) much more consequential. In other words, make it so that getting carried through lower keys becomes exceedingly more difficult than it already is.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Googles View Post
    You can't blame him because you have the same insecurities as him. You guys are prime content for r/ImTheMainCharacter. Hate it to break it to you kiddos but you aren't as special as mommy told you.

    @Nachtigal
    I couldn't care less about what you have to say about me. Truth is, you're just going to see this very little part of myself and just assume you know everything about me. Toodles, googles.

  9. #529
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post

    if yu called it "it might be not in time " then they will likely stay till end even not timed. you may get people with 500 less score - but they will indeed stay forver. just to get depleted score.
    Only if that were true.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i was talking about horse cock again, told him to look at your sig.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    I could care less about keys being destroyed. I would like to see score correlate more accurately with practical player skill. Personally, I think that begins with increasing the difficulty at lower keys and making mistakes (eg., missing an interrupt) much more consequential. In other words, make it so that getting carried through lower keys becomes exceedingly more difficult than it already is.
    but it does corelat - you just need to learn how to read this score

    this is the problem with statistics - people expect fast simple answer instead put literaly 10 seconds into reading whole data.

    doe high score people make mistakes ? sure they do - everyone does we are not robots

    but statiticaly person who has like 2400 xp and like 150+ timed dungeons will do much much much less mistakes then person who has like 2k score and like 20 timed dungeons

    and at this point of expansion people who care about m+ are already above 100+ timed dungeons this season .

    you wanna play with those people .

    hell im a casual scrub and i already timed 80+ dungeons.

    and the part about stuff being taxing in lower dungeons. it is taxing when they are done at appropiate itlv - thing is most people vastly overgear them . and then hit wall at like 13-15 when gear progress slows down and they cannot overgear them in 1 week . they can in 2 months of gear / VP/ raid . GV farm . but not instantly . thats why they think that +15 is hard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Only if that were true.
    it is true. not everyone is a nasty person on internet.

    last week i was still missing 1 dungeon on tuesday so i joined some random +15 pug . they were honest about boosting their friend in description and i didnt mind missing timer . just wanted to complete 1 . we almsot timed it with 180 itlv lock in group .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-08-26 at 07:40 AM.

  11. #531
    I think you are mixing up abusive with selfish, they're two different things. Selfishly leaving a group mid run isn't abusive it's selfish, get it?

  12. #532
    I can tell for sure that people will always find a way to f*ck up other people regardless what kind of penalties are in place.

  13. #533
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports toxic community behaviour.
    Eh... The same could be argued for Mythic raids... Or any difficulty of content that seeks to limit participation due to required skill/knowledge checks.


    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    They should just remove the timer etc so ppl would play the game for fun again.
    Technically, M+0 is there with no time limit at all. So that already exists? Granted the rewards are lower but less difficulty = lesser rewards.
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  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    but it does corelat - you just need to learn how to read this score

    this is the problem with statistics - people expect fast simple answer instead put literaly 10 seconds into reading whole data.

    doe high score people make mistakes ? sure they do - everyone does we are not robots

    but statiticaly person who has like 2400 xp and like 150+ timed dungeons will do much much much less mistakes then person who has like 2k score and like 20 timed dungeons

    and at this point of expansion people who care about m+ are already above 100+ timed dungeons this season .

    you wanna play with those people .

    hell im a casual scrub and i already timed 80+ dungeons.

    and the part about stuff being taxing in lower dungeons. it is taxing when they are done at appropiate itlv - thing is most people vastly overgear them . and then hit wall at like 13-15 when gear progress slows down and they cannot overgear them in 1 week . they can in 2 months of gear / VP/ raid . GV farm . but not instantly . thats why they think that +15 is hard.
    Don't be so condescending. I know how to read a score. The difficulty is that score doesn't correlate to what you think it means. Yes, people make mistakes, but there is a difference between missing an interrupt and not bothering to use your interrupt skill at all. When you reach the 10-15 bracket, and if score was an accurate reflection of player skill, you wouldn't get knuckle-draggers who refuse to interrupt and stun--and that's assuming it's even on their bar.

    Further, since you're clearly misunderstanding everything I've been trying to say, I'll break it down very simply: I want score to represent what players will be expected to do at the requisite score levels. Using interrupts as an example, if a player refuses or doesn't hot key their interrupt, I want the difficulty of the dungeons to be so that that player can never complete +10s, even when every other player in the party is KSM. This way, when I join a group of people who have scores requisite to complete a +10, the only time interrupts will be missed is due to player error, and not because someone doesn't slot it.

    Oh, and for the record, when I actively play, I time a lot of dungeons. So my complaints in this thread aren't related to that, contrary to what you are implying. What I simply want is for the system to play out better, so that I (and others) can avoid the frustrations of having low-skill players in content that they have no business being in.

  15. #535
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Don't be so condescending. I know how to read a score. The difficulty is that score doesn't correlate to what you think it means. Yes, people make mistakes, but there is a difference between missing an interrupt and not bothering to use your interrupt skill at all. When you reach the 10-15 bracket, and if score was an accurate reflection of player skill, you wouldn't get knuckle-draggers who refuse to interrupt and stun--and that's assuming it's even on their bar.
    I don't think any system would be able to do this very well. For instance, some players let spells go off so that they can either spellsteal the benefit or consume it for resources (i.e. DH). Alternatively consider the case of using spell reflection on a damaging spell to turn casted spell back on the mob.



    IMO instead of trying to make/find systems to evaluate player ability, the better path is to keep track of good players during your PuG runs and become friends with them so that you'll always have a pool of "good" players that you can find them to do runs with.
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  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    I don't think any system would be able to do this very well. For instance, some players let spells go off so that they can either spellsteal the benefit or consume it for resources (i.e. DH). Alternatively consider the case of using spell reflection on a damaging spell to turn casted spell back on the mob.

    IMO instead of trying to make/find systems to evaluate player ability, the better path is to keep track of good players during your PuG runs and become friends with them so that you'll always have a pool of "good" players that you can find them to do runs with.
    Last time I added people to play with later when we were going to play they complained about insane lags and didn't want to play because I am on oceanic realms and they were NA. xD

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports toxic community behaviour.
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports the idea of playing with your friends.

    As everywhere else in life: if you grab 4 random people, even if they might have roughly the same desire as you, chances are high that you don't get along with one of them. Play with friends, not with strangers, and all theproblems you perceive M+ to have vanish in the wind.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    I don't think any system would be able to do this very well. For instance, some players let spells go off so that they can either spellsteal the benefit or consume it for resources (i.e. DH). Alternatively consider the case of using spell reflection on a damaging spell to turn casted spell back on the mob.



    IMO instead of trying to make/find systems to evaluate player ability, the better path is to keep track of good players during your PuG runs and become friends with them so that you'll always have a pool of "good" players that you can find them to do runs with.
    Your proposed solution has significant flaws. Mostly that it turns M+ into "scheduled content," which is problematic. Personally, I have plenty of friends, but sometimes when I want to do M+, not enough people want to do it. I shouldn't have to schedule my time to do something that is fun.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports the idea of playing with your friends.
    No. Weekly chest ruins it. It pushes players to do the best key they can every week.

    If player has better gear, player is capable of doing higher keys than his friends. Higher keys give way better rewards, so why would player not want to do higher keys? So he does a higher key, next week from chest gets better rewards than his friends. Gear difference grows higher, compounding on the issue.

    I've been on both receiving end of this shit system (had worse gear, thus not capable of doing high keys friends were doing, being dead weight isn't fun, so had to pug lower keys) and on other end (had better gear, so even after running lower keys with friends had to pug higher keys to maximise weekly chest).

    Then there is lack of content, resulting in players leaving game all the time. That means friends circle grows smaller over time. In old times before cross-realm bullshit, players found new friends after pugging dungeons, but today in anonymous gogogo environment with timers, there is no time to even talk, let alone make friends. Timers made it worse.

    M+ is anti-social piece of shit because of timers, fast paced game, weekly chest and cross-realm game play.
    "Those who can convince you to believe absurdities can convince you to commit atrocities." ~Voltaire
    I feel the above truly reflect what is happening in the US and its allies, or has been happening for some time.

  20. #540
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Your proposed solution has significant flaws. Mostly that it turns M+ into "scheduled content," which is problematic. Personally, I have plenty of friends, but sometimes when I want to do M+, not enough people want to do it. I shouldn't have to schedule my time to do something that is fun.
    Emphasis added. It seems then you should expand your pool of friends to include ones that have different hours. Make some West Coast/East Coast friends so that during the odd times you want to do M+ there would be other reliable players online as well.

    How do you find those people? Again, just do what you currently do - M+ at random times and if the players are good, add them as friends. Maybe the next time you're online, you can just ping them to see if they want to join in your run and before you know it - you have plenty more friends to pick from instead of doing the PuG scene.
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