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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Emphasis added. It seems then you should expand your pool of friends to include ones that have different hours. Make some West Coast/East Coast friends so that during the odd times you want to do M+ there would be other reliable players online as well.

    How do you find those people? Again, just do what you currently do - M+ at random times and if the players are good, add them as friends. Maybe the next time you're online, you can just ping them to see if they want to join in your run and before you know it - you have plenty more friends to pick from instead of doing the PuG scene.
    Are you trying to describe how the game works or how you wished it worked?

    Its important to understand the difference between the two. Mythic plus doesn't really have the interest in it you believe it does. Even at the high end once you take away people selling boosts people pushing keys past 15 is a pretty small minority of high end players. Even then most only do it till they have all 20s for portal or till they no longer get a real benefit from the weekly chest. Given that raid trinkets are bis for most (all?) Classes this tier and 5 slots are claimed by domination gear with one more for the leggo and most mythic raiders dont bother with mythic plus already.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Emphasis added. It seems then you should expand your pool of friends to include ones that have different hours. Make some West Coast/East Coast friends so that during the odd times you want to do M+ there would be other reliable players online as well.

    How do you find those people? Again, just do what you currently do - M+ at random times and if the players are good, add them as friends. Maybe the next time you're online, you can just ping them to see if they want to join in your run and before you know it - you have plenty more friends to pick from instead of doing the PuG scene.
    No matter how many friends one has, over how many different time zones, there will always be times when one wants to do M+ and there are not enough friends online to fill out the group. This is just reality. Unless you're willing to schedule your M+ play (I'm not), there will always be some semblance of PUGing, and the score system should accurately reflect what other players are capable of. Sadly the system does not do this.

    Furthermore, even if your solution did work, it's unreasonable for players to make so many friends just for content in the game to not be frustrating. What about those who don't like a large friendship circle, who like to keep it small? Oh, no reliable M+ for you I guess, because of who you are. It's a bad, bad solution.

  3. #543
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Are you trying to describe how the game works or how you wished it worked?
    I'm describing my general strategy in the approach I have with M+ PuGs so that I am constantly adding reliable players that I would be happy to run any M+ with because they are good players. And by expanding the number of good players that I can do M+ with, I am never really short of players to do M+ regardless of time.

    This also has the benefit of reducing the number of bad PuG experiences as you've already played with these players previously.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    No matter how many friends one has, over how many different time zones, there will always be times when one wants to do M+ and there are not enough friends online to fill out the group. This is just reality.
    True but even minimizing the amount of random PuG members by 1 means a lower chance of running into a bad PuG situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Furthermore, even if your solution did work, it's unreasonable for players to make so many friends just for content in the game to not be frustrating.
    Well the only way around that is to remove anonymity from group finder. Realistically that's the only way you can isolate the bad players from the good.

    Then take the top nth % of the blacklisted players across a region and limit those players to only be able to play from within that group. (See Mythic Quest episode on how they dealt with that one particular group and dinner parties).

    Ultimately the best solution is to only run with players you know or can hold accountable due to some external social construct. IMO the next best solution is to crowdsource the bad/toxic players and limit their ability to interact with the rest of the wow population.
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  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    I'm describing my general strategy in the approach I have with M+ PuGs so that I am constantly adding reliable players that I would be happy to run any M+ with because they are good players. And by expanding the number of good players that I can do M+ with, I am never really short of players to do M+ regardless of time.

    This also has the benefit of reducing the number of bad PuG experiences as you've already played with these players previously.

    - - - Updated - - -



    True but even minimizing the amount of random PuG members by 1 means a lower chance of running into a bad PuG situation.



    Well the only way around that is to remove anonymity from group finder. Realistically that's the only way you can isolate the bad players from the good.

    Then take the top nth % of the blacklisted players across a region and limit those players to only be able to play from within that group. (See Mythic Quest episode on how they dealt with that one particular group and dinner parties).

    Ultimately the best solution is to only run with players you know or can hold accountable due to some external social construct. IMO the next best solution is to crowdsource the bad/toxic players and limit their ability to interact with the rest of the wow population.
    There is another solution, which I posted about earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure Blizzard wants to do it: increase difficulty significantly in keys across the board. Instead of reserving the "miss an interrupt or stun and get one-shot" from the 20-25 bracket, put it in the 10-15 bracket. This would cut down on a lot of the incompetency, because people with a 10-15 score would virtually have to understand the basics of interrupts and stuns, and the chances of any player, regardless of who they ran with, having completed all dungeons in 10-15 without having interrupts or stuns on their bar would be very few. Also, beyond smaller changes like that, I would just ramp up the tuning even more. Eg., I'd bake Tyrannical and Fortified into the tuning, instead of one or the other on a given week.

    This would have the net effect of increasing the skill of players who are in the 10-15 bracket, because the carries or low skill players wouldn't be able to do much past 10, and so when good players joined a group that has score reflective of 10-15, any wipes would be due to mistakes, and not incompetence.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    In old times before cross-realm bullshit, players found new friends after pugging dungeons, but today in anonymous gogogo environment with timers, there is no time to even talk, let alone make friends. Timers made it worse.
    You can do exactly the same now, and battle.net friend lists are even better because you can add players from the whole region and not only those that by chance rolled on your realm.

  6. #546
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    This is a case of having to do the content if you want the rewards attached to it.

    Also, you get 233 for doing solo open world content.
    What? Were the hell am I missing world content that gives me 233ilvl gear?''

    The best gear I am seeing from world quests is 203. The korthian gear, currently can only be upgraded to 226.

    Edit:
    Oh, right, the couple/few pieces that drop from Mor'geth.

    Fuck, thought I was missing something bigger.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    What? Were the hell am I missing world content that gives me 233ilvl gear?''

    The best gear I am seeing from world quests is 203. The korthian gear, currently can only be upgraded to 226.

    Edit:
    Oh, right, the couple/few pieces that drop from Mor'geth.

    Fuck, thought I was missing something bigger.
    I think you can also upgrade gear via artifact research though I've never seen a casual player do this.

  8. #548
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I think you can also upgrade gear via artifact research though I've never seen a casual player do this.
    You can. That's the Korthian gear I referred to in the post you quoted: 226 if you have rank 6 with the Archivists Codex; 233 at 75 renown.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    No. Weekly chest ruins it. It pushes players to do the best key they can every week.

    If player has better gear, player is capable of doing higher keys than his friends. Higher keys give way better rewards, so why would player not want to do higher keys? So he does a higher key, next week from chest gets better rewards than his friends. Gear difference grows higher, compounding on the issue.

    I've been on both receiving end of this shit system (had worse gear, thus not capable of doing high keys friends were doing, being dead weight isn't fun, so had to pug lower keys) and on other end (had better gear, so even after running lower keys with friends had to pug higher keys to maximise weekly chest).

    Then there is lack of content, resulting in players leaving game all the time. That means friends circle grows smaller over time. In old times before cross-realm bullshit, players found new friends after pugging dungeons, but today in anonymous gogogo environment with timers, there is no time to even talk, let alone make friends. Timers made it worse.

    M+ is anti-social piece of shit because of timers, fast paced game, weekly chest and cross-realm game play.
    the irony when its so not true.

    guilds take low level people all the timeinside dungeons liek +15.

    for example 2 weeks ago i almost timed +15 in pug which i joined just for last slot in GV for that week and we helped soem 180 itlv warlock to get his shiny 252 gear . it were 4 guildies - we lamsot timed it - missed timer by literly 15 seconds.

    just because you play with antisocial people its your problem - find guild that does stuff together.

    i regularly offer my own keys to guild as i dont care about them - since i have no problem to join pugs . and dont mind burnign my +19 and lower keys for guildies so they get their gv and some score in process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I think you can also upgrade gear via artifact research though I've never seen a casual player do this.
    because they need still 1,5 month of renown gating + insane codex farm to be able to do it

    one would have to be insane to do that when they can spend that time playing FF14

  10. #550
    The system sucks as is, but Blizzard really doesn't want to make more work for the already understaffed GMs. There isn't any kind of system they can put in that won't be abused in some way, and they don't want to spend tons of man-hours just resolving disputes over people being jerks.

    Penalize leaving groups? Now the leavers just dc (which some do anyway), go afk, or stop actually doing the dungeon and demand to be vote kicked.
    Penalize getting kicked? Enjoy having a "permanent record" being ruined by trolls and other morons. (let's kick the only person in the group that has any idea what they're doing)
    Allow keys to be resumed? Enjoy getting kicked out at the last boss for the group to bring in a friend/guildmate or even a buyer.

    Should all of that be reportable offenses? Yep. But Blizzard doesn't want to spend hours trying to sort out this kind of abuse, so they leave us with... no system at all.

    I'd like to see keys function like Greater Rifts in D3 as it takes the sting out of having your key dropped by some random asshole, but beyond that it's honestly pretty limited what they can do that can't be abused.

  11. #551
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyman2 View Post
    But Blizzard doesn't want to spend hours trying to sort out this kind of abuse, so they leave us with... no system at all.
    Well that's not true. The system is don't PuG keys that are meaningful to you. Only do keys with players whom you can trust and rely on.
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  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Well that's not true. The system is don't PuG keys that are meaningful to you. Only do keys with players whom you can trust and rely on.
    nah - system is as random as everythign is with random groups

    sometimes you get amazing group - sometimes you get shitty group with people who get carried to high score.

    the answer when you got latter is always the same - jsut leave - leave fast - as key will likely break anyway in 20-30 minutes once - only thing you will loose is lots of nerves and time.

    you cannot time high keys with bad players. at least not untill rest of group will be 252+ . and atm your avarage group doing +20s is like 245 from what i see in pugs.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    No thanks. When I'm trying to get my alts thru a 15 and they repeatedly decline me even though I'm entirely capable of timing any 15... I love nothing more than to find them on my main, queue up, smash the meters and drop group after first boss. ^_^
    while i know leavers cant be punished (and i have left keys myself so dont get me wrong here), doing this and wasting other peoples time is quite bad. there are a million reasons why you can get declined to a M+, the best is to just ignore it instead of acting like a kid and waste peoples time just beacuse you didnt get a invite. i have no problems with people leaving a key if it goes south and they want to time it, but straight out griefing like this is one of the reasons why i never pug. Besides, you can push your own keys, ask guildies and communities for help etc.

    even when i was timing +19 keys in 8.3 (BM hunter) i still got declined to +15 sometimes, its life and it happens.

  14. #554
    Getting declined for a key you sign up for is not personal though. It also doesn't mean the leader thinks you are not good enough to do it. These are just reasons we interpret in our heads which causes you to get angry or frustrated but in reality there are a multitude of reasons why you didn't get the invite. You might not be what they are looking for - which could be anything from a CR, to hero/BL, to a specific covenant for the bonus in that dungeon. Heck, if it's something like quaking week and it's a full melee group, they might just want to throw in a ranged to make things a bit easier. But the bigger reality is you have tons of people signing up for keys and as a leader you're not looking to get 20 dpsers into your key, you're looking for one.

    I get frustrated when I sign up for keys for 30 minutes with no luck as well when trying to get my alt done but I also totally understand the situation from the other side. I honestly think it's worse being on the other side because you have multiple options and if you end up with a bad or toxic player who ruins the key, you will be thinking "Why didn't I pick someone else?".

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    Getting declined for a key you sign up for is not personal though. It also doesn't mean the leader thinks you are not good enough to do it. These are just reasons we interpret in our heads which causes you to get angry or frustrated but in reality there are a multitude of reasons why you didn't get the invite. You might not be what they are looking for - which could be anything from a CR, to hero/BL, to a specific covenant for the bonus in that dungeon. Heck, if it's something like quaking week and it's a full melee group, they might just want to throw in a ranged to make things a bit easier. But the bigger reality is you have tons of people signing up for keys and as a leader you're not looking to get 20 dpsers into your key, you're looking for one.

    I get frustrated when I sign up for keys for 30 minutes with no luck as well when trying to get my alt done but I also totally understand the situation from the other side. I honestly think it's worse being on the other side because you have multiple options and if you end up with a bad or toxic player who ruins the key, you will be thinking "Why didn't I pick someone else?".
    nah - lets not pretend - 90 % of cases its because you are non-meta below 2500 score players.

    if you are meta 2500 then you get insta invites everywhere.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    nah - lets not pretend - 90 % of cases its because you are non-meta below 2500 score players.

    if you are meta 2500 then you get insta invites everywhere.
    Score and class is a different topic in itself though. If a work place are hiring a janitor with 2 years experience and you fit that bill, the company aren't evil people who deserves hate because they pick another applicant with 10 years of experience. If you have multiple applicants and one is more qualified that will always be a nod in their favor.

  17. #557
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Emphasis added. It seems then you should expand your pool of friends to include ones that have different hours.
    lol... how does that solve that you would be playing on a schedule? who the fuck wants to play on a schedule?

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i suggest trying at least 19-20 bracket

    bracket like 13-17 is absolute cesspool
    This is such a myopic view; and I don't say this because it's technically false; but because it's technically USELESS AS AN ADVICE.
    It's exactly like saying: "trying heroic Sylvanas with people that just killed it is stupid; try to do it with people on 5/10mythic+".
    Well DUH: people on level freaking 20+ on a dungeon will know it perfectly; that's useless advice for those on "13-17".

  19. #559
    Remove loot chest from dngs, remove time limit and make the dng about skill/coordination/fun , keep vault weekly loot from doing 1/3/10 dngs, this will remove player toxicity as it doesn't matter if you clear it in 5 or 50minutes, doesn't matter if someone dies, and it doesn't matter how many runs you're able to do in a day because 10 is all that matters a week.
    OR just bring back MOP Cms that were actually fun

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    Remove loot chest from dngs, remove time limit and make the dng about skill/coordination/fun , keep vault weekly loot from doing 1/3/10 dngs, this will remove player toxicity as it doesn't matter if you clear it in 5 or 50minutes, doesn't matter if someone dies, and it doesn't matter how many runs you're able to do in a day because 10 is all that matters a week.
    OR just bring back MOP Cms that were actually fun
    Or just leave M+ like they are and ADD some other activities with similar rewards and near to zero needs for a party to do them.

    I know it’s a mmorpg but it’s clear that anything above M0 dungeons that cannot be completed with guildmates or friends lead to threads like this, because it’s not my effort only, it’s my effort plus the effort of other 4 strangers and the more you reach a point in which mistakes cannot be fixed on the fly, the more failure has an high chance to occur, if you play with strangers. You can also fail with friends of course but consequences will not be that dramatic.

    This is also over amplified by queue times. When you see you are wasting half of your playtime in queue and after that you find a party that disbands at first boss for whatever reason, it’s frustrating.

    There is no way to mitigate this, so we need alternatives. This game has become all about ilvl, if you can’t raise it you will quit and unsub.

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