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  1. #581
    Hmm be enslaved by some shitter with a key he bought trying to get another lock out from it or be free...

    It is very hard for me to decide what horse to back here... just buy a boost.

  2. #582
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Blizzard should just give you a massive penalty for leaving/disconnecting keys before the timer is off. Every other online game does it too. You have to leave because your dog ran away? Too bad. Also introduce a report system to report people intentionally depleting the keys. Just like any other online game as well. Imagine dota/league without a proper report system. Yeah, that's m+ in wow for you..
    A report system can have false negatives. We already see it being abused with the silence penalty via reporting. Those kinds of systems will require more customer service reps (or GMs) to review cases that have been appealed.

    Frankly, Activision-Blizzard-King (ABK) doesn't want to spend that kind of money. Probably because the return on investment is low.


    Moreover, implementing any kind of penalty (before the timer is off) only encourages players who would have left to screw over the group until the timer is up then they leave. We've covered numerous examples before so I won't rehash them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyarlo View Post
    Screwing on 4 other players for no excusable reason is def more harmful than not.
    But at the same time, 4 players who "waste" the time of the 5th player shouldn't be punished as well? Imagine the scenario where somehow a group of 4 get a high key and they bring in this 5th player who is M+/r.io score appropriate for the key. Then that 5th player finds out that shit, these 4 players are just way over their heads in this dungeon at the high key. They don't know the route, don't know how to handle the affixes, can't even be bother to interrupt/CC when necessary. Why does the 5th player have to suffer through over an hour in a dungeon with utter fools?

    Isn't it harming the 5th player's time by forcing them to literally carry this group of 4 noobs to the end of the dungeon?
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  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    maybe its time for blizzard to introduce "looking for friends " feature then .

    but be honest - most of you dont look for friends - most of you look for people who play on exackly the same level as you do - not lower preferably higher so they can carry you

    what would solve 90 % of toxic issues would be AI playing on level equal to players rating.

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    and what all those dungeons had in common ? i mean there was only 1 "the same" person in all of them

    maybe there was a reason why they were leaving.

    thx god next 2 weeks are "push " weeks so we wont see those threads return untill october 6th
    It’s not about being carried, it’s about not being able to progress without a fixed group or without tons of time to spend applying.

    I’m simply tired having to rely on others, but again I understand that this goes against the game’s spirit so it’s 100% my problem.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Blizzard should just give you a massive penalty for leaving/disconnecting keys before the timer is off. Every other online game does it too. You have to leave because your dog ran away? Too bad. Also introduce a report system to report people intentionally depleting the keys. Just like any other online game as well. Imagine dota/league without a proper report system. Yeah, that's m+ in wow for you..
    In those "other online games " are you playing with randoms or do you pick and choose teammates like you do for m+?
    Some people think rape threats are acceptable, smh.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The same reason why you are calling a "rape threat" online from a complete stranger as harassment? Why wouldn't you shrug that off when it has 0% chance of actually happening?

  5. #585
    Bloodsail Admiral Xykotic's Avatar
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    Ya'll know the scene in Casino Royale? The one with the rope?

    Yeah, give them that.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    nah, that's a delusional assumption. The entire way M+ is designed supports the concept of "Quitting while you're ahead." This includes those that ditch after a single wipe. The concept of a death counter that acts against you is genuinely a plague, and the way high keys are "designed," many deaths can come from a single person's mistake. This mistake could very well and often does come from folks who are "pulling their weight" in terms of damage.

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    Myhtic 0 rewards badges. Mythic + at high keystones rewards currency for exclusive content. There can also be a scaling reward with badges, rewarding more for higher keys, but no loss of rewards for failing to meet a timer. Badges can be used to purchase gear that might not be optimal, but competitive, and takes a while to acquire. Raid bosses also drop badges. This allows Mythics to offer a progression route for raiders without falling victim to arbitrary benchmarks that reward toxic behavior. You will still earn badges even if you don't time a Mythic dungeon.

    The highest mythic dungeons will reward exclusive cosmetics like Challenge Modes of old.
    you are delusional if you think those groups dont exist. i have seen plenty. i refuse to waste time with people who do not put forth the effort, especially in higher keys.

  7. #587
    The eternal struggle between the selfish and those who hate how the selfish waste everyone else's time.

    All the while the selfish finding any way they can to justify their view that the game is supposed to make it fine for them to use others as NPCs, not real people.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It’s purely abusive behavior that should be banned, because 99% of the time they do it because 1 out of 5 failed so they abuse 3 out of 5 there without deserving it.
    We solved this issue by not running with pugs. We only run with guild members or people we know from other raid guild.. Works great.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    In those "other online games " are you playing with randoms or do you pick and choose teammates like you do for m+?
    What's the difference between a matchmaker based on points or randomly picking people based on points?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    A report system can have false negatives. We already see it being abused with the silence penalty via reporting. Those kinds of systems will require more customer service reps (or GMs) to review cases that have been appealed.

    Frankly, Activision-Blizzard-King (ABK) doesn't want to spend that kind of money. Probably because the return on investment is low.
    Every other online game can get a report system going, wow can too. Dota handles pretty much every report automatically. Some abuse it - sure. But for the greater good, it's still better than nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Moreover, implementing any kind of penalty (before the timer is off) only encourages players who would have left to screw over the group until the timer is up then they leave. We've covered numerous examples before so I won't rehash them.
    Again, this is why they should add a report system. This problem is solved in 100 other games "easily".

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    why? i do this all the time if i see a grp that asks for 2.5k io in a +15 or "big Dicks only" ill join with my main that has 251 ilvl and score and if isee one misake in the route cc/kicks or them doing less dps than me i tell them "thats not a big dick 2,5k io grp" and leave lol

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    and what is there to abuse a third party score? if every one can do it then no one is "abusing" it lol thats some HC raider "-" iq logic, i would love to reset my keys like i was able to on the TR Realm back in bfa when i did trails
    That's a weirdly antagonistic response. My comment was based on the presumption that the current design intention of keys going up and down was still in place. If the current design philosophy is still intended, a way to game that via DCs would be poor design.

    Whether keys should go up or down (or should be resetable) is a different issue and one I was not commenting on. Given that you failed to understand that, are you sure you're not the one with "-" iq logic?

  11. #591
    Breaking the key of the player who created the group sucks, yep. But then again, players shouldn't be held in moral captivity because of that.

    A solution would be to remove this idiotic keystone system. Just let players run dungeons they want man. Or instead of keystoning, just save the maximum + level they achieved , so if you +3'd NW on, say, +7, you can do +10s of this dungeon whenever you like. No worry about broken key then.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    why? i do this all the time if i see a grp that asks for 2.5k io in a +15 or "big Dicks only" ill join with my main that has 251 ilvl and score and if isee one misake in the route cc/kicks or them doing less dps than me i tell them "thats not a big dick 2,5k io grp" and leave lol

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    and what is there to abuse a third party score? if every one can do it then no one is "abusing" it lol thats some HC raider "-" iq logic, i would love to reset my keys like i was able to on the TR Realm back in bfa when i did trails
    that's overly toxic, this is why I never invite people over 2k rio. most of them are assholes and genuine condescending people whom blame their mistakes on others.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    What's the difference between a matchmaker based on points or randomly picking people based on points?
    The difference is the responsibility is on you to vet your teammates. When you randomly assemble via a queue, you're thrown into a game and have 0 agency on who your teammates are. There is a leaver penalty because otherwise ud just instantly leave and requeue whenever without any downsides to you or any extra work besides hitting a button. With m+, you hold the key, you vet the group. Talk to them some before you start the dungeon.

    Its not perfect, and I'm not saying I 100% agree, but I can tell u that's why there are no penalties. Its solved by making friends and grouping with them.
    Some people think rape threats are acceptable, smh.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The same reason why you are calling a "rape threat" online from a complete stranger as harassment? Why wouldn't you shrug that off when it has 0% chance of actually happening?

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Boiled-Lobster View Post
    that's overly toxic, this is why I never invite people over 2k rio. most of them are assholes and genuine condescending people whom blame their mistakes on others.
    ppl at my score rarly do mistakes one misake means keys is done on a +25 beside i thnik you missread my post cuz they DEMAND a certain I.O or class for a fucking +15 lol ma dude im playing mage if someone demands a 2.5k io mage but pulls like 2 packs at the time i leave the grp, trash palyers demand meta specs but dont know how to paly with them
    I.O BFA Season 3


  15. #595
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    What's the difference between a matchmaker based on points or randomly picking people based on points?
    It's a question of system versus player. Because M+ requires a group leader to assemble the team, then there are less automated tools because the responsibility falls on the group leader when assembling the team.

    Whereas if a system is using fairly simple logic, then more automated tools are offered to the players since players didn't have a say in the matter. This is why LFD/LFR have a vote kick system and also a queue system.

    You don't want that for M+ because the system pulling in 1 tank, 1 Healer and 3 DPS won't be concerned about obvious comps for M+. Like having certain utility (i.e. TW/Hero, Brez, etc) for the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Every other online game can get a report system going, wow can too. Dota handles pretty much every report automatically. Some abuse it - sure. But for the greater good, it's still better than nothing.
    Yes and how much staff does DotA (or LoL or any other game) use to audit/review cases for appeal? What's the cost not only in staff time but also development? It's not a matter that ABK can't replicate their systems but a question of do they want to from a financial stand point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Again, this is why they should add a report system. This problem is solved in 100 other games "easily".
    "Easily" is never that easy nor that cheap. Unless you want to sacrifice quality. And remember there's always a financial cost for ABK.

    Consider this:

    Option 1 - Don't do anything to change M+. Zero cost, might lose some players from attrition.
    Option 2 - Implement a reporting system plus staffing to review appeals and make necessary changes in game to enable this = Greater than Zero Cost. How many players would it bring back to WoW?

    Now if you could quantify to ABK that option 2 would bring in millions of players back (up to WotLK levels) then sure, they'll do it. But if it only serves to quiet a small subsection of the WoW community? Not worth ABK's time nor effort.
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  16. #596
    Why not just make keys usable again until you complete the run or you lower it manually in oribos instead of trying to find a overcomplicated solution to a problem the community invented for themselves?

    sometimes the group is just bad and you want to leave
    sometimes someone in the group is so toxic that you dont care losing your key or just leave
    sometimes someone is just trolling


    there is a really wide spectrum of why someone wants to leave the group, not everything is "he left because he is toxic"

  17. #597
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    Why not just make keys usable again until you complete the run or you lower it manually in oribos instead of trying to find a overcomplicated solution to a problem the community invented for themselves?
    That solution has the problem of causing degenerative gameplay.

    Think about it if there is no penalty for restarting then at what point do you say: "Hey let's just restart!".
    - Is it when you see that you're at 29 minutes in Halls of Atonement and you just finished up the third boss but haven't cleared the trash up to the 4th Boss?
    - Or is it when you had a group wipe at the 2nd boss?
    - Or is it when you had a poor first pull (only got 2 of the packs instead of 3 at the start of the dungeon)?

    The penalty for the key to degrade means that some minor mistakes are allowed and you can still finish the dungeon within time. Major mistakes will kill the run for sure but minor things can slide.
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  18. #598
    I dare you to quote me on this years from today.

    NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

    Here's why: An automated system intended to punish leavers would be prone to abuse and a non-automated system would require Blizzard to dedicate resources, as in hire more customer support staff, to police players. This is Blizzard we're talking about, the same company who some time ago fired most of their customer support staff because they're greedy sleazebags. Hell will sooner freeze over before they hire more people just so that people won't have to deal with leavers as much. Their priorities are profit and profit alone, your enjoyment of the game is a secondary objective at best. As long as you don't quit in large numbers it's all good.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2021-09-23 at 06:25 PM.

  19. #599
    honestly if you would waste your time with something like mythic plus, you deserve to have your time wasted even more

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by orderchaos View Post
    honestly if you would waste your time with something like mythic plus, you deserve to have your time wasted even more
    I mean you just wasted your time typing that. At least it doesn't require brain power, because you had nothing to waste.

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