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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Your examples are about separating criminals, you don't say a word about people getting better after serving time (which doesn't work), something you mentioned in your first post.

    And no, games are not "microcosm of life", because anonymous people in front of a keyboard behave differently than IRL.
    EVERYTHING is real life. We're not imaginary when we play a game. We're still humans that hurt others if we want to: and if you say "that's not a big deal on the internet": say that to all the parents that had their kids abducted via the internet..

  2. #22
    I believe that people advocating for arbitrary punishments are quite young...needs more life experience

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    EVERYTHING is real life. We're not imaginary when we play a game. We're still humans that hurt others if we want to: and if you say "that's not a big deal on the internet": say that to all the parents that had their kids abducted via the internet..
    And that's not what I was talking about, go read my replay again.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I agree. There are some people that have some kind of mythic strategy in their head and if they see anyone deviating from it they start personally attacking everyone and rage quitting.
    E.g. I had someone in Kel'thuzad heroic calling everyone an idiot because they didn't stack 4 spikes on the same spot as if that's gonna make it better in most pugs.

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    Nobody is equating murder with being abusive in raiding. I'm saying that justice systems work.
    You don't allow theft just because beheading is worse.
    I was refering its funny that your complainimg about it. Not the strategy. Also if your the raid lead than do your job. Tell them how to do it or stfu and let someone better do the job.

    Sounds like you are trying to pug raids with zeo knowledge of the fights even at an lfr level.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Doodledoo View Post
    So let me get this straight real quick here... YOU are the raid leader of said toxic people, and you think blizzard should handle your job? Also, I don't think you understand what they were talking about when they were talking about ffxiv.... They FORCE you to join their discord in order to pug, which means its literally the same as being FORCED to endure in game chat. But please, can we go back to how you're the raid leader of said offender and you haven't done anything about it, and want blizzard to do it for you?
    No raid leader can solve the problem. This isn't people that ruined your next 100 pulls because obviously they are gone fast from your life (as a raid leader): these are people that start personally attacking others with abusive language and of course they do the token ninja pull of the boss at the end.
    Are you saying you like those people being around the game and keep doing that to MULTIPLE groups (they will NOT stop on your one group)?

  6. #26
    Being in a hurry to cancel and ban people over petty stuff isn't a move in the right direction.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    That is why I no longer care about raiding. I have my lovely guild, where I can clear everything. If I struggle with some bosses then I just buy a boost. Life is good. No point wasting sanity when you can just relax and spend wonderful time with your pets.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-08-14 at 08:44 PM.
    #SaveAlgalon

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    I believe that people advocating for arbitrary punishments are quite young...needs more life experience
    This isn't about PUNISHMENT. This is about making the game better. Do you REALLY want people running about the game personally attacking others in various groups because they think they are so much smarter than everyone (those people DO NOT stop on your one group after you kick them)?

  9. #29
    It seems like you were the problem, and once again, you want to penalize people that don't want you in their group.

    The case is simple ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    I was refering its funny that your complainimg about it. Not the strategy. Also if your the raid lead than do your job. Tell them how to do it or stfu and let someone better do the job.

    Sounds like you are trying to pug raids with zeo knowledge of the fights even at an lfr level.
    Oh your problem is that we're not elitist enough to not care about heroic: that's a non-argument and off topic: nobody cares that you are elitist against heroic just because your guild HAPPENED to be progressed.
    Also this isn't about ONE group: obviously the abusers will be kicked by any raid leader fast (if they don't rage-quit after the abuse which is usually what they do).
    Do you really want those abusive people running around the game doing that to MULTIPLE groups (they will NOT stop on your one group)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Being in a hurry to cancel and ban people over petty stuff isn't a move in the right direction.
    Petty? We're talking about people that personally attack others and then ninja pull before they rage-quit.
    Some of the personal attacks those people make are libel in most justice systems and punished in court.

  11. #31
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    I believe that people advocating for arbitrary punishments are quite young...needs more life experience
    While not agreeing with the post at the top of the thread: There's a code of conduct that everyone agrees to. A lot of stuff passes unnoticed that violates it. Blizzard clearly isn't interested in enforcing their own rules in game and have now left it up to automated algorithms to start the process. All of that could be handled differently because what is in place now really is arbitrary. It's a failure of Blizzard, only understandable because the size of the game, the number of users, the number of countries, the number of servers/realms is far too big to manage efficiently with human personnel. No doubt though that Blizzard messed this up and has been disinterested in fixing it. People don't have to lose their accounts but more and longer timeouts might help.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Raid culture won't change if you ban based off of what is said in the ingame chat. You will simply end up in a FFXIV situation where there is faux niceness in the ingame chat, but the "toxicity" still persists and simply has been moved to out of game platforms such as discord. In order to PUG you will have to join some guy's discord and that's where the chewing out will take place. In fact, given by the current state FFXIV's community is in, I'd say that banning people based off of what they say is that last thing you want to start doing, lest you start cultivating an extremely oppressive, insular echochamber. WoW's community isn't perfect but right now it's better off as is than the alternative.
    I quit ff14 after i was invited to a static and right as we were about to queue, i asked which aspect they wanted my ast in for the fight and they kicked me, lol. Its way worse than wow at the high end

  13. #33
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This isn't about PUNISHMENT. This is about making the game better.
    Don't be coy. It's insulting. More punishment to make the game better is all about punishment. It's a means to a non-provable end.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    While not agreeing with the post at the top of the thread
    What exactly is your disagreement? I want arguments, not "most people attack you so I can't support you because they'll do the same to me".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Don't be coy. It's insulting. You want more punishment to make the game better.
    Justice systems are not ONLY punishment. They are also deterrents (for example).

  15. #35
    Tossing out bans to everyone who hurts your feelings or suddenly opts or decides not to include you in something is probably not the ideal way to make WoW less abusive.

    You are not entitled to a group's good graces for whatever reason you might think you are. Not having the patience to teach you an encounter is not a bannable offense. There's a point where you need to learn to either take responsibility for yourself and watch and learn the encounter as well as you can on your own, or suck it up, brush it off, and try to find another group who might be a little more tolerant and patient, or find yourself a raiding guild that's open to players like you who are still progging.

    It would be nice if everyone online was nice and helpful and willing to hold your hand and give you a pat on the back when you need it, but that's not the way it works, and oppressing the playerbase by forcing them to hold onto players they don't want on pain of them getting banned because the person they kicked got their feelings hurt is not a good shape for the community to take. You only think it is because you're mad, and you want to punish the people you're mad at by cooking up suggestions to make them miserable regardless of whether or not it hurts the game.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Oh your problem is that we're not elitist enough to not care about heroic: that's a non-argument and off topic: nobody cares that you are elitist against heroic just because your guild HAPPENED to be progressed.
    Also this isn't about ONE group: obviously the abusers will be kicked by any raid leader fast (if they don't rage-quit after the abuse which is usually what they do).
    Do you really want those abusive people running around the game doing that to MULTIPLE groups (they will NOT stop on your one group)?

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    Petty? We're talking about people that personally attack others and then ninja pull before they rage-quit.
    Some of the personal attacks those people make are libel in most justice systems and punished in court.
    It is petty behavior. I think expecting Bliz to police all of that activity is going down a bad path that will also result in people getting banned who are either innocent or did something which doesn't deserve a ban.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    Tossing out bans to everyone who hurts your feelings
    This isn't about "hurting my feelings"; they are kicked out of my groups in 10 seconds (if I even care to do it).
    We're talking about people that use abusive language that is considered libel in most justice systems.

    Do people even realize that children may be on the other side when they abuse them that way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    It is petty behavior. I think expecting Bliz to police all of that activity is going down a bad path that will also result in people getting banned who are either innocent or did something which doesn't deserve a ban.
    So I guess you want murderers out, because justice systems do nothing right?
    Oh and if murder is too extreme: do you want thieves out?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This isn't about "hurting my feelings"; they are kicked out of my groups in 10 seconds (if I even care to do it).
    We're talking about people that use abusive language that is considered libel in most justice systems.

    Do people even realize that children may be on the other side when they abuse them that way?

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    So I guess you want murderers out, because justice systems do nothing right?
    Oh and if murder is too extreme: do you want thieves out?
    So we are now comparing toxic behavior in video games to murderers and thieves irl? Dude.. maybe take a break from the game or just find a new one or even join a guild and stop pugging.

  19. #39
    Sure. Does that rule include Blizzard employees who spend their time shittalking others on their twitter accounts?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    So we are now comparing toxic behavior in video games to murderers and thieves irl? Dude.. maybe take a break from the game or just find a new one or even join a guild and stop pugging.
    Yes we are comparing abusive language that is considered libel in most justice systems and is punished in court to murder and theft.
    Where does your lenience to illegal behavior stop?
    How many laws should be drop for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Sure. Does that rule include Blizzard employees who spend their time shittalking others on their twitter accounts?
    Yes. And they will probably do that themselves.

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