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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    How can you be so aggressively delusional when Blizzard took those two new factions (undead and NE), put them in the Horde and Alliance in vanilla, then brought that Horde/Alliance as a core concept once again when they decided from the start that there wouldn't be cross faction gameplay ? Every damn extension, no matter what the enemy we get a reminder that Horde and Alliance never miss a chance to throw arms at each other.

    The Horde-Alliance conflict has always been at the core of the Warcraft universe. Blizzard declared so everytime we asked them for crossfaction gameplay.

    The Language elixir was a tiny step in the right direction. The ending of BFA is another. But they'd need actual balls to complete the walk. Maybe after SL, who knows.


    You are not really understanding the problem.
    The Kaldorei (Part of the Alliance) never had a chance to launch their weapons against the Horde.

    That is why this renewal and this peace feels so empty. They did not let the Kaldorei fight.
    Tyrande is supposed to be a monster. But seeing what she does, I would like all my enemies to be like her. They will never hurt me except that I go into her house.

    (Also all the damage they come and do to the Horde and how she no longer has weapons to fight with)

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinured View Post
    MLP literally turned to shit after season 1.
    Sir get out of my house.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    You are not really understanding the problem.
    The Kaldorei (Part of the Alliance) never had a chance to launch their weapons against the Horde.

    That is why this renewal and this peace feels so empty. They did not let the Kaldorei fight.
    Tyrande is supposed to be a monster. But seeing what she does, I would like all my enemies to be like her. They will never hurt me except that I go into her house.

    (Also all the damage they come and do to the Horde and how she no longer has weapons to fight with)
    Yeah. Sorry but that was not the point of my argument here. The point was that Warcraft always had Horde vs Alliance at its core.

    Although peace would be unsatisfying in some ways (NE not having actual reparations for whatever they suffered) it would be satisfying for most the playerbase, gameplay-wise.
    Last edited by DatToffer; 2021-08-17 at 01:37 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah. Sorry but that was not the point of my argument here. The point was that Warcraft always had Horde vs Alliance at its core.
    Except for Warcraft 3 where the horde and alliance barely fight and its mostly focused on fighting the undead/legion and going on random dungeon delves.

  4. #124
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    Definition of warcraft

    - - - Updated - - -

    And there has been war between other forces that the Horde and Alliance have fought. Did you forget what was going on with Burning Crusade, Legion, Wrath, Cata, the end half of BFA, and the entirety of Shadowlands? It was/is all Horde & Alliance vs another group of people
    Yeah? That's the point. There doesn't NEED to be war between the Alliance and the Horde, because they're always at war with someone else. The WAR in WARCRAFT will be there no problem, it doesn't have to be between the playable factions.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

    For instance, why can't the Alliance nuke Orgrimmar using the Vindicaar, leaving only ashes and charred buildings behind?

    Why must it always be the Horde that gets to be in control of the plot and dictate what happens? First in MoP with Theramore and then in BfA with Teldrassil.

    And btw, I'm sure that if Alliance nuked Orgrimmar you wouldn't complain... Nah not at all! You'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, it happens"... right? Right.

    Or if Alleria caused the Sunwell to explode and obliterated Silvermoon, I'm sure you'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, war crimes happen"...
    LOL! You're not actually serious right? Nearly the entire last 2-3 expansions have been focused on just how good and awesome the alliance is. The only chance the horde had to be the good guys was washed away when they were forced to turn traitor and break their blood oath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sir get out of my house.



    Yeah. Sorry but that was not the point of my argument here. The point was that Warcraft always had Horde vs Alliance at its core.

    Although peace would be unsatisfying in some ways (NE not having actual reparations for whatever they suffered) it would be satisfying for most the playerbase, gameplay-wise.
    When is Azeroth going to get reparations for what they suffered because of the NE?

  6. #126
    The Horde and Alliance are two monoliths. If there's to be any plot at all then there need to be sub-groups, like in Game of Thrones. BfA had the right idea, it's just that there still weren't enough ways to divide the horde and alliance before piecing it back together into something interesting again.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also, what about the post itself?
    Little to really cover. I agree with a number of your points as you know but where this topic is concerned I think even accepting the game's inane framing leaves someone with a weaker position, much like how arguing about either 'honor' or 'pragmatism' in BFA was accepting the game's framing and ergo being bound to lose because of the inanity of that dichotomy. The question isn't 'revenge' or 'renewal' because neither is on offer and neither is represented.

    Revenge implies some kind of negativity or solely personal stake as if Tyrande wasn't fighting against Sylvanas exclusively, which is the exact same thing everyone else is trying to and indeed as we try to do within the raid. Renewal is a complete meme in the sense that not only do none of her actions actually restore the community she lead in on Azeroth, the only reason that community was even able to set itself up in the first place is because they fought back and physically killed the opposition, much like any restoration first requires the expulsion of those trying to destroy you. There is no dichotomy here, Tyrande's made no choice because when she did try to kill Sylvanas Elune pulled the plug, ergo the only way for her actions to not be completely futile was to go along with what Elune required her of which was to benefit not the living night elves she is the leader of or even the dead night elves who're cooking in turbo hell, but her sister in Ardenweald to whom Tyrande owes nothing. Disregarding even her false choice nothing that has happened up to this point, including even Sylvanas's defeat has had any bearing to speak of on Tyrande's issues with the Horde at large because Sylvanas didn't torch the tree herself nor did the significant losses of her people going from continental empire to rump state start from Sylvanas. Sylvanas has only been involved in harming the night elves for about two years vs. a much longer standing conflict with the Horde over resources where repeated capitulation has been the only position taken.

    At the end of this entire malarkey, the Night Elves have not regained ground or learned anything that they weren't already practicing and that hasn't reaped total failure. The conclusions the characters come to is entirely an out of character contrivance induced upon them by the writing staff. All for the sake of pushing a message that's barking and retarded at best and actively socially harmful at worst, much like it has been when it was applied to everyone else in the Alliance in BFA. To discuss their in-story reasoning as presented is impossible because their positions are genuinely incomprehensible and do not stem from their experiences, political position or the state of their people.

    @Ivarr

    Mists had already turned the Alliance into a monolithic husk where only Genn and occasionally Moira had any independent motives and fought the Horde. BTS and BFA neutered them but wrote itself into a corner where it had to make Tyrande that kind of character but had no desire to so hence her entire tortured journey that ends with her becoming the same kind of vat-grown peacenik as everyone else. Its real focus in any case was on removing all aspects of the Horde that weren't a shambolic parody of Warcraft 3 Thrall, hence why the end result of the expansion was one where the values, goals and character of Alliance and Horde were completely interchangable. Its goal wasn't to piece them together or even to take them apart because every character in the plot who was on a given side had the exact same motive of 'honor' which is to say bland, universalist goodness completely at odds with the setting. Mists was a better view into racial and factional goals than BFA as at least there Garrosh's opposition were motivated by national interest and political disagreements that varied depending on the group instead of all being on the exact same grounds. It also contented itself with 'only' mangling the Horde's main race instead of turning all races into interchangable blobs.

    And it helps to remember that even then BFA had more distinct motives among its two poles, those being saccharine goodness and cartoonish villainy than post-BFA where every positive character from Azeroth has identical values and goals and where the only possible conflict can emerge from the outside. The people who complain about how 'warcraft doesn't ahve to mean faction war' despite that being the secondary pillar of the entire game and franchise besides fighting PvE and the only actual gameplay ground for why distinct motives even have to exist have only themselves to blame now that in the main narrative the entire Azeroth cast consists of identical drones.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-17 at 02:37 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    When is Azeroth going to get reparations for what they suffered because of the NE?
    Well... We have them as defenders of Nature now xDDD

    I love that point. NE players whining that their race didn't get reparation for the things they suffered, but forgetting that after breaking the planet, this race was gifted with immortality, immunity to disease and a sweet VIP pass for the Emerald Dream.

    Guess what was given to the tauren, furbolgs, dwarves, who had nothing to do with that disaster but actually moved their asses to help, all the while dealing with the racism and xenophobia of the kaldorei in charge ?

    Nothing.

    Oh except for that one tauren boy. He got antlers.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Well, actually i would want “renewal” if it was any other setting the WoW and any other narrative team.

    And if it wasnt the Nth time we have to do this song and dance.

    I am tired, mentally done with “renewal” because it will not last a moment. Because it will never affect the game.

    Is that just me or… it feels dreadful. Do you feel that too?

    I am not even against “renewal” now! Yes for fucks sake, i am at the point where getting over a mutilation of my favourite race is fine with me. I can find it in me to hug it out with the Horde. (If you wash first).


    But its worthless! If we have to crush our own necks for this “renewal”, swallow whatever pride we have left, spit on the ashes of the dead and move on through pain and despair then it should MEAN SOMETHING!

    For example - cross faction gameplay. Not “merging” factions but having like “cross faction hubs” where people can group up for dungeons and other content.

    Actual lasting, respectful peace between Horde and Alliance. No more of that “annual war crime whoopsie”.

    Show of good will from the Horde and Alliance towards each other, whatever form those exchanges and interactions may take.

    Such colossal act of peacemaking and change should have feasible effects on the world.

    But it wont! We will not have cross faction PvE. We wont have new quests showing cooperation. We will not be allowed to activate the “peace mode” in open world and walk into each other cities.

    We will have another faction war in two… maaaaybe three expansions and endless retarded “we no friends despite plot saying we are” moments before that.

    If you want us to have peace then have balls to show just how peaceful we can get Blizz!
    While I can see where you are coming from, there is a difference between being at peace and being friends. I don't think, or at least I hope, that another faction war is in the cards for WoW. Not in the near future at least. But I don't think that we should be able to group up and be friends.

    People here seem to think that, since we are at peace, we can pretend that conflict never happened and now we are friends. That is not how things work at all.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Well... We have them as defenders of Nature now xDDD

    I love that point. NE players whining that their race didn't get reparation for the things they suffered, but forgetting that after breaking the planet, this race was gifted with immortality, immunity to disease and a sweet VIP pass for the Emerald Dream.

    Guess what was given to the tauren, furbolgs, dwarves, who had nothing to do with that disaster but actually moved their asses to help, all the while dealing with the racism and xenophobia of the kaldorei in charge ?

    Nothing.

    Oh except for that one tauren boy. He got antlers.
    Night elves pretty much gave up everything they were and became forest recluses to never again form an Empire capable of harming Azeroth. It was the idea, like Thrall's "repent by living in the desert" but they actually went with it. It is explored in one of the books. When Tyrande has a dream about her becoming next Queen and restoring the Empire but then thinks of how horrible that would have being. They essentially became one of the most modest races in the world in terms of "give and take" from Azeroth herself because of how much they hated what Azshara and her empire did.

  11. #131
    Seriously ? You have the biggest villain of Azeroth (Arthas) ???

    Azeroth is Trolls land ,stop acting like horde came from other planet to ours drama, but you guys (humans, dwarves, elves) genocide them from the beginning.

    And yeah Sylvanas can become "goodie" like Uther. Both of them killed with same weapon, same character. Their soul ,or whatever it is, corrupted and twisted by that. Uther said , Frostmourne made that. If Uther accepted by Kyrian for everything he done in Shadowland, Sylvanas can be redeemed too. Her soul also corrupted by the Frostmourne. We should wait for "real" Sylvanas to talk.

    Elune saved your stupid priestess's life btw. She was going to lose herself and eventually dead. Like other night warriors on Shadowland. What would she gain for killing Sylvanas ? We already lost Sylvanas, she will never be Horde again. At least Elune stopped Tyrande and she is alive.

    Lore developers isn't favor the Horde. Seriously, what kind of favoring is that ? Every expansion something happen to one of our leaders (this time the smartest one). Others licking boots of enemy faction, or betray us.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I love how there's war between Covenants but absoutely no emnity between players/characters who rep Covenants and openly team up with members of any Covenant, or PVP against players of their own Covenant as if they don't matter at all.

    War may exist between the Covenants, but as players we're seeing absolutely none of it. There's literally zero PVP content in Shadowlands built around Covenant conflict right now.
    Is there a war between the covenants?

    During the levelling, we see breakaway parts of the Maldraxxi attack the Kyrian, but the first Necrolord covenant campaign is spent dealing with the group who did that and making amends with the Kyrian.

    Half of the callings i get are "Go to this zone and do some world quests for the covenant there", doesn't seem very warlike to me...

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They essentially became one of the most modest races in the world in terms of "give and take" from Azeroth herself because of how much they hated what Azshara and her empire did.


    How modest could actually be a race who grant themselves the power of life or death though ?

    Let's not forget that everytime the furbolgs are duped to corruption or get upset by Nature imbalance, the kaldorei answer is systematically to purge the shit out of them.

    This is not modesty. This is a people who got their own vision of what Nature should be and will enforce that vision on everything they meet. Which is badass in its own way, if it wasn't disregarded so many times in favor of the happy go lucky Nature lovers trope.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by gigadrain3 View Post
    Seriously ? You have the biggest villain of Azeroth (Arthas) ???

    Azeroth is Trolls land ,stop acting like horde came from other planet to ours drama, but you guys (humans, dwarves, elves) genocide them from the beginning.

    And yeah Sylvanas can become "goodie" like Uther. Both of them killed with same weapon, same character. Their soul ,or whatever it is, corrupted and twisted by that. Uther said , Frostmourne made that. If Uther accepted by Kyrian for everything he done in Shadowland, Sylvanas can be redeemed too. Her soul also corrupted by the Frostmourne. We should wait for "real" Sylvanas to talk.

    Elune saved your stupid priestess's life btw. She was going to lose herself and eventually dead. Like other night warriors on Shadowland. What would she gain for killing Sylvanas ? We already lost Sylvanas, she will never be Horde again. At least Elune stopped Tyrande and she is alive.

    Lore developers isn't favor the Horde. Seriously, what kind of favoring is that ? Every expansion something happen to one of our leaders (this time the smartest one). Others licking boots of enemy faction, or betray us.
    I'd rather have my leaders dead if my races were not narratively dead in the water.

    Also Uther was capable of better judgement, reason and stepping back from the path of evil when he realized that Maw was behind the Forsworn actions. He was nowhere near as evil as Sylvanas even with his soul split. That shows that even fragmented soul is capable of rational thought and free thinking, so Sylvanas was not "doomed" to be evil. She just chose to follow her worst urges and succumbed to them willingly.

    And i would cheer for Tyrande's death if she took Sylvanas with her. Heroic death is the best a leader can aspire to have, becoming a symbol for countless future generations. Living in shame and acceptance of defeat however is a "death" in life, being a shade of yourself and dragging your body around while what made you "You" is gone.

    Writers are mostly favoring you. Best they throw Alliance way is "uhm... you kinda won that one time... not onscreen though, myeah."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post


    How modest could actually be a race who grant themselves the power of life or death though ?

    Let's not forget that everytime the furbolgs are duped to corruption or get upset by Nature imbalance, the kaldorei answer is systematically to purge the shit out of them.

    This is not modesty. This is a people who got their own vision of what Nature should be and will enforce that vision on everything they meet. Which is badass in its own way, if it wasn't disregarded so many times in favor of the happy go lucky Nature lovers trope.
    Fel and otherwise tainted creatures are not part of "nature", that was brought up many times. Removing things that are just vessels for corruption is not being arrogant, its protecting everything else that is untainted yet. We got quests to slay corrupted things from almost every Nature related faction and leaders, from Green dragons to dryads to Ancients to elementals and so on.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Interestingly enough you already CAN do crossfaction PvP.
    As a member of the other faction, not as yourself.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  16. #136
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    I have no idea what're you talking about. Reneweal is in my spell book, it didn't go anywhere.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Fel and otherwise tainted creatures are not part of "nature", that was brought up many times. Removing things that are just vessels for corruption is not being arrogant, its protecting everything else that is untainted yet. We got quests to slay corrupted things from almost every Nature related faction and leaders, from Green dragons to dryads to Ancients to elementals and so on.
    As I said, it's not just corruption. It's also Nature imbalance like in Darkshore. And as for the furbolg I talked about them being duped.

    The reasonable thing would be to get rid of the corruption source and to purify the beings affected. You see it in Val'sharah. A quest asks you to destroy a corrupted totem in a furbolg camp. But once you do that and they stop being hostile, well you can still kill them because uh that's just the elf way to help their allies I guess.

    People expect Elune to put out a fire that has taken a world tree, but apparently no one thinks she could be bothered to purify demonic corruption of innocent bystanders.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    As a member of the other faction, not as yourself.
    Yes, but still you can. While PvE which is faaar more "lore justified" for crossfaction or mercenary mode is for some reason faction locked.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post


    How modest could actually be a race who grant themselves the power of life or death though ?

    Let's not forget that everytime the furbolgs are duped to corruption or get upset by Nature imbalance, the kaldorei answer is systematically to purge the shit out of them.

    This is not modesty. This is a people who got their own vision of what Nature should be and will enforce that vision on everything they meet. Which is badass in its own way, if it wasn't disregarded so many times in favor of the happy go lucky Nature lovers trope.
    That's not really a race "granting themselves power over life or death," it's more one militant member of a race saying "my people tend to kill those who screw with us." It's a bold statement, sure; but it's not really tantamount to claiming power over existence. Night Elves as a rule are pretty modest and even-keeled, and Maiev is probably one of the most extreme examples the Kaldorei have produced.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    As I said, it's not just corruption. It's also Nature imbalance like in Darkshore. And as for the furbolg I talked about them being duped.

    The reasonable thing would be to get rid of the corruption source and to purify the beings affected. You see it in Val'sharah. A quest asks you to destroy a corrupted totem in a furbolg camp. But once you do that and they stop being hostile, well you can still kill them because uh that's just the elf way to help their allies I guess.

    People expect Elune to put out a fire that has taken a world tree, but apparently no one thinks she could be bothered to purify demonic corruption of innocent bystanders.
    It depends on what kind of corruption we talking about. In WoW removing physical damage is trivial, removing corruption is at times near impossible, its a common trope of many fantasy titles though. You can regrow limbs, heal ghastly wounds, save lives with a single spell but "corruption" is always the worst.

    Also nice try moving the goalposts, but you may have to try harder. Much harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's not really a race "granting themselves power over life or death," it's more one militant member of a race saying "my people tend to kill those who screw with us." It's a bold statement, sure; but it's not really tantamount to claiming power over existence. Night Elves as a rule are pretty modest and even-keeled, and Maiev is probably one of the most extreme examples the Kaldorei have produced.
    That. Also people do often forget that Maieve considered to be the most "extreme" of the night elves military, hell, she was officially exiled from kaldorei lands until Legion.

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