I dont want “renewal”. Here is why.

[VladlTutushkin]

Well, actually i would want “renewal” if it was any other setting the WoW and any other narrative team.

And if it wasnt the Nth time we have to do this song and dance.

I am tired, mentally done with “renewal” because it will not last a moment. Because it will never affect the game.

Is that just me or… it feels dreadful. Do you feel that too?

I am not even against “renewal” now! Yes for fucks sake, i am at the point where getting over a mutilation of my favourite race is fine with me. I can find it in me to hug it out with the Horde. (If you wash first).


But its worthless! If we have to crush our own necks for this “renewal”, swallow whatever pride we have left, spit on the ashes of the dead and move on through pain and despair then it should MEAN SOMETHING!

For example - cross faction gameplay. Not “merging” factions but having like “cross faction hubs” where people can group up for dungeons and other content.

Actual lasting, respectful peace between Horde and Alliance. No more of that “annual war crime whoopsie”.

Show of good will from the Horde and Alliance towards each other, whatever form those exchanges and interactions may take.

Such colossal act of peacemaking and change should have feasible effects on the world.

But it wont! We will not have cross faction PvE. We wont have new quests showing cooperation. We will not be allowed to activate the “peace mode” in open world and walk into each other cities.

We will have another faction war in two… maaaaybe three expansions and endless retarded “we no friends despite plot saying we are” moments before that.

If you want us to have peace then have balls to show just how peaceful we can get Blizz!

[gaymer77]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

[VladlTutushkin]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

Yep. You may notice how i specifically said that they FORCING us to take “renewal”.

If we will have war anyway, why beat us down over the head with “you MUST choose renewal”?

Basically they just humiliating players for no reason at this point.

[DatToffer]

But its worthless! If we have to crush our own necks for this “renewal”, swallow whatever pride we have left, spit on the ashes of the dead and move on through pain and despair then it should MEAN SOMETHING!

Please stop roleplaying your character outside of your roleplay sessions. You look crazy acting like you actually suffered from the mass murder of the pixel people.

[Varodoc]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

For instance, why can't the Alliance nuke Orgrimmar using the Vindicaar, leaving only ashes and charred buildings behind?

Why must it always be the Horde that gets to be in control of the plot and dictate what happens? First in MoP with Theramore and then in BfA with Teldrassil.

And btw, I'm sure that if Alliance nuked Orgrimmar you wouldn't complain... Nah not at all! You'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, it happens"... right? Right.

Or if Alleria caused the Sunwell to explode and obliterated Silvermoon, I'm sure you'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, war crimes happen"...

[VladlTutushkin]

Please stop roleplaying your character outside of your roleplay sessions. You look crazy acting like you actually suffered from the mass murder of the pixel people.

I did suffered because spending more then ten years of your life being a huge fan of a setting only for it to go down in such a hail of shit is actually painful.

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

My mother is 45 years old and she still gets mad when i joke about the death of her favourite pop-singer from when she was young.

[Varodoc]

I did suffered because spending more then ten years of your life being a huge fan of a setting only for it to go down in such a hail of shit is actually painful.

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

My mother is 45 years old and she still gets mad when i joke about the death of her favourite pop-singer from when she was young.

Actually I don't know why these people are making fun of you, it's perfectly fine to get really invested in fictional characters and races. See Star Wars fans and how hardcore they are with their investment in the franchise.

So long as you don't send death threats to people, like Sylvanas fanboys did after the Burning of Teldrassil (like it wasn't painfully obvious Sylvanas was behind it lol), then you're good. Death threats is when the line is crossed.

[AeneasBK]

Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

For instance, why can't the Alliance nuke Orgrimmar using the Vindicaar, leaving only ashes and charred buildings behind?

Why must it always be the Horde that gets to be in control of the plot and dictate what happens? First in MoP with Theramore and then in BfA with Teldrassil.

But muh Camp Taurajo :O

- - - Updated - - -

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

In the words of Jay Wilson - "Fuck that loser" Imagine coming to the Lore section of a fantasy video game to shittalk roleplayers.

[Varodoc]

But muh Camp Taurajo :O

Precisely.

It's always funny how Horde players always have the gall to say stuff like "But it's warcraft, it's the point, war crimes will happen because it's the setting, deal with it!!!! not peacecraft, warcrat!!!!", but then they still cry and moan about Camp Taurajo, which was an insignificant little camp (totally comparable to Teldrassil lol), or still go on about that incident at the Sunwell with Alleria, which resulted in a total body count of 0 people. Not counting the Void ethereals who were defeated and destroyed in 2 minutes. And let's not even talk about the Purge of Dalaran...

So would Horde players understand that the Alliance nuking Orgrimmar or Silvermoon is for the sake of the setting and the plot, and would come to terms with it, or would they start complaining that Blizzard has a bias against them? Hmm...

It's easy to say "but it's Warcraft, this needs to happen, deal with it" when your favourite is not on the receiving end of the genocide.

[VladlTutushkin]

But muh Camp Taurajo :O

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In the words of Jay Wilson - "Fuck that loser" Imagine coming to the Lore section of a fantasy video game to shittalk roleplayers.

Exactly. Star wars fan, Star track fans, Warhammer fans… Not to mention football fans or wrestling and box fans. Any fan can be angry.

Also yes, its a lore section after all.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I did suffered because spending more then ten years of your life being a huge fan of a setting only for it to go down in such a hail of shit is actually painful.

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

My mother is 45 years old and she still gets mad when i joke about the death of her favourite pop-singer from when she was young.

Yea, I totally understand you. Maybe this time we could get a peace mode. It would be actually great to visit common cities and do quests. I really hope they would implement something like that. I was always neutral and player vs enemy oriented. I bet there is many people like that who just focus on defending Azeroth. I’m not saying to completely disable player vs player but to give us a choice.

[DatToffer]

Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

For instance, why can't the Alliance nuke Orgrimmar using the Vindicaar, leaving only ashes and charred buildings behind?

Why must it always be the Horde that gets to be in control of the plot and dictate what happens? First in MoP with Theramore and then in BfA with Teldrassil.

And btw, I'm sure that if Alliance nuked Orgrimmar you wouldn't complain... Nah not at all! You'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, it happens"... right? Right.

Or if Alleria caused the Sunwell to explode and obliterated Silvermoon, I'm sure you'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, war crimes happen"...

I don't think the Horde always look cool and badass when doing those things.

Most Horde players I know and heard of in here are tired of being the war criminals. Plus the reason why Sylvanas decided to burn Teldrassil is stupid.

But it's the role we get stuck with. Just like the Alliance is stuck with the role of the forgiving heroes.

My honest opinion ? I would have loved to see the Alliance stomping the Horde at the very beginning of BFA. Put them on a leash.

Warcraft history showed us that the humans only treated the orcs badly once they were defeated. So to have a bad Alliance, you'd need them to win the war. You could start with the Alliance treating the Horde as war criminals, then gradually treating them as worthless monsters because, well the Horde is basically the DnD monsters made playable.

But for that to happen, you'd need the Horde to become the victim and the Alliance to become the oppressors, and I don't think it's something the playerbase would want to see.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't think the Horde always look cool and badass when doing those things.

Most Horde players I know and heard of in here are tired of being the war criminals. Plus the reason why Sylvanas decided to burn Teldrassil is stupid.

But it's the role we get stuck with. Just like the Alliance is stuck with the role of the forgiving heroes.

My honest opinion ? I would have loved to see the Alliance stomping the Horde at the very beginning of BFA. Put them on a leash.

Warcraft history showed us that the humans only treated the orcs badly once they were defeated. So to have a bad Alliance, you'd need them to win the war. You could start with the Alliance treating the Horde as war criminals, then gradually treating them as worthless monsters because, well the Horde is basically the DnD monsters made playable.

But for that to happen, you'd need the Horde to become the victim and the Alliance to become the oppressors, and I don't think it's something the playerbase would want to see.

Stupid or not Horde basically “scored” the biggest imaginable victory on Alliance since the time when orcs sacked Stormwind and burned it to the ground.

It was the epitome of “cool” and it was definitely “badass”.

Problem is - this plot went nowhere for Alliance. We did a 360 turn and came to exact point where we started but with far less then we started with.

[korijenkins]

Please stop roleplaying your character outside of your roleplay sessions. You look crazy acting like you actually suffered from the mass murder of the pixel people.

"Why do you care? I don't care, neither should you!"

Believe it or not, people are more or less invested in the lore than you, in OP's case more. They feel a game demanding 15/mo+ should give them a better story.

[Varodoc]

I don't think the Horde always look cool and badass when doing those things.

Most Horde players I know and heard of in here are tired of being the war criminals. Plus the reason why Sylvanas decided to burn Teldrassil is stupid.

But it's the role we get stuck with. Just like the Alliance is stuck with the role of the forgiving heroes.

My honest opinion ? I would have loved to see the Alliance stomping the Horde at the very beginning of BFA. Put them on a leash.

Warcraft history showed us that the humans only treated the orcs badly once they were defeated. So to have a bad Alliance, you'd need them to win the war. You could start with the Alliance treating the Horde as war criminals, then gradually treating them as worthless monsters because, well the Horde is basically the DnD monsters made playable.

But for that to happen, you'd need the Horde to become the victim and the Alliance to become the oppressors, and I don't think it's something the playerbase would want to see.

Theramore: Garrosh nukes it, gets away with it, keeps control and support of the Horde until he backstabs Vol'jin. Before that everyone kept following him even after Theramore. Somehow survives MoP and goes on to launch WoD. Dies in WoD and returns in Shadowlands to get a glorifying cameo that was the spotlight of 9.1.

Teldrassil: Sylvanas nukes it, smiles while doing so, gets away with it, later on is besieged, cornered, surrounded by the Alliance but somehow still escapes while giving the middle finger to the Alliance, somehow still keeps control of the Horde even after all the mess with Garrosh ON TOP of the 2 war crimes she already committed (this is just the pre-patch of BfA btw), still keeps popular support until she tries to kill the burger Baine, then when she betrays literally everyone she STILL gets away with it and doesn't die, is in the process of being redeemed while Elune tells Tyrande to stop being angry that her people got exterminated.

So Yes, the Horde committed genocide twice and got away with it twice while looking good and badass.

Meanwhile Jaina kills 20 elves in Dalaran once and the entire Alliance (in-universe), Horde, and community hates her, it's clear that the Alliance is never allowed to have balls. They can't even make incidents, Alleria does an oopsie at the Sunwell and everyone treats her like she's the second coming of Satan. Meanwhile we got the Forsaken experimenting with the living and developing dangerous toxins since Classic but no one cares.

The Alliance is literally neutered. But now that Turalyon is High King hopefully they will take a more direct approach. Which doesn't equate to committing genocide, but it does equate to not let the Horde walk on them any further. And by "walk on them" I mean "stomp them and grind them to dust".

[VladlTutushkin]

More like the epitome of false flags, and definitely shocking.

Most Horde players did not enjoy the burning of Teldrassil. Most Horde players actually enjoy Azeroth and it's wildlife and don't desire everything burned to the ground.

It was the furthest thing from "cool" and the exact opposite of everything the Horde would consider "badass." Horde badassery is beating someone down with bare fists and no armor, not burning innocents and backstabbing your own to do it.

Idk about that. Forums pretty much got overloaded with Horde’s celebratory kongas back then and people seemed to gang up on anybody who said that it wasnt best thing since sliced bread and do whole witch hunts and “no true horde” shaming.

- - - Updated - - -

Theramore: Garrosh nukes it, gets away with it, keeps control and support of the Horde until he backstabs Vol'jin. Before that everyone kept following him even after Theramore. Somehow survives MoP and goes on to launch WoD. Dies in WoD and returns in Shadowlands to get a glorifying cameo that was the spotlight of 9.1.

Teldrassil: Sylvanas nukes it, smiles while doing so, gets away with it, later on is besieged, cornered, surrounded by the Alliance but somehow still escapes while giving the middle finger to the Alliance, somehow still keeps control of the Horde even after all the mess with Garrosh ON TOP of the 2 war crimes she already committed (this is just the pre-patch of BfA btw), still keeps popular support until she tries to kill the burger Baine, then when she betrays literally everyone she STILL gets away with it and doesn't die, is in the process of being redeemed while Elune tells Tyrande to stop being angry that her people got exterminated.

So Yes, the Horde committed genocide twice and got away with it twice while looking good and badass.

Meanwhile Jaina kills 20 elves in Dalaran once and the entire Alliance (in-universe), Horde, and community hates her, it's clear that the Alliance is never allowed to have balls. They can't even make incidents, Alleria does an oopsie at the Sunwell and everyone treats her like she's the second coming of Satan. Meanwhile we got the Forsaken experimenting with the living and developing dangerous toxins since Classic but no one cares.

Best part is how arguably speaking Blight is worse then the Void because Void requires certain aptitude and basically “maaagics” while even most “dull” person can brew the blight if they have equipment and ingredients.

Its a wonder nobody stole the formula yet and waged terror-war on whole Azeroth.

Thats the thing about WMD, you dont need any special talent or power or even “sacrifices” to make the compound and put it in the barrel and then push the “launch” button.

[huth]

Stupid or not Horde basically “scored” the biggest imaginable victory on Alliance since the time when orcs sacked Stormwind and burned it to the ground.

It was the epitome of “cool” and it was definitely “badass”.

Problem is - this plot went nowhere for Alliance. We did a 360 turn and came to exact point where we started but with far less then we started with.

Which is why the game shouldn't focus on Horde vs. Alliance. It never goes anywhere and we know it. You can't create tension or drama when everybody already knows how it's going to end.

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Idk about that. Forums pretty much got overloaded with Horde’s celebratory kongas back then and people seemed to gang up on anybody who said that it wasnt best thing since sliced bread and do whole witch hunts and “no true horde” shaming.

Remember that just being on the forums already makes you part of a minority group, and being loud can make you look more important than you really are. The actual celebrants where a tiny group to drunk on victory.

[DatToffer]

I did suffered because spending more then ten years of your life being a huge fan of a setting only for it to go down in such a hail of shit is actually painful.

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

My mother is 45 years old and she still gets mad when i joke about the death of her favourite pop-singer from when she was young.

You do realize that this pop-singer was an actual person, unlike the night elves, right ? I feel the need to ask, because you really look like the line between fiction and reality is blurry to you.

Actually I don't know why these people are making fun of you, it's perfectly fine to get really invested in fictional characters and races. See Star Wars fans and how hardcore they are with their investment in the franchise.

So long as you don't send death threats to people, like Sylvanas fanboys did after the Burning of Teldrassil (like it wasn't painfully obvious Sylvanas was behind it lol), then you're good. Death threats is when the line is crossed.

Yeah, I heard of a lot of people being really invested in fictional characters. They drive actors to quit and throw people into depression. The most toxic fandoms are full of really invested people. As you say there's a line. And I don't think it's just the death threat. Death threat are psychotic. People need to stop before even approaching that and realize they're just throwing a tantrum.

Complaining and joking about the shitty writing, yeah that's fine. We're all in that trainwreck, Horde or Alliance. Acting like you're the one being stabbed and murdered, talking about faction pride as if you actually live in that fictional country. It's crazy talk.

I remember during BFA when players claimed that the Horde couldn't possibly be resurrected as undead, because they'd turn into wisps. It was a pretty stupid and ignorant take, but they whined and whined until the quest got changed and you'd get some wisps popping here and there. They were called "Angry wisps" and I found it kinda funy because they could have been called "Angry forum comments" to be more accurate.

But if that's the kind of thing that comes from really invested people, then I really think we should have less invested people.

In the words of Jay Wilson - "Fuck that loser" Imagine coming to the Lore section of a fantasy video game to shittalk roleplayers.

Talking about lore doesn't require you to be in roleplay mode, it's mostly pointless even. It can be cute and funny, but not in this instance.

[Nerovar]

The problem is that Blizzard probably knows that there's a large chunk of the playerbase who care enough about the setting that they wouldn't want a transition into World of Peacecraft... but at the same time the writing has been pushing towards reconciliation ever since WC3 and it doesn't help that every Horde vs Alliance conflict since then has been basically framed as a series of "oopsies" that were initiated by either rogue individuals or outside forces.

Their writers even knowingly push this cyclical conflict while jerking themselves off about it. They don't have the balls to make decisive changes to the setting in either direction so we end up with a setting where no one can lose, no one can win and there can't be lasting peace either. Within this context, every conflict will be resolved with "we used to hate each other but we're friends now" which automatically chokes off any meaningful story development.

BfA is the definitive proof for this because it was built up to be the expansion about the faction war which started off with the most controversial/shocking event in the history of WoW and it still amounted to nothing. There was no resolution, no reparation, no retribution - just more meaningless talk and back to square one.

If they couldn't produce meaningful story development with BfA's premise that was deliberately set up to be as grim as it possibly gets with WoW then they're simply not able to do it.

[DatToffer]

Theramore: Garrosh nukes it, gets away with it, keeps control and support of the Horde until he backstabs Vol'jin. Before that everyone kept following him even after Theramore. Somehow survives MoP and goes on to launch WoD. Dies in WoD and returns in Shadowlands to get a glorifying cameo that was the spotlight of 9.1.

Teldrassil: Sylvanas nukes it, smiles while doing so, gets away with it, later on is besieged, cornered, surrounded by the Alliance but somehow still escapes while giving the middle finger to the Alliance, somehow still keeps control of the Horde even after all the mess with Garrosh ON TOP of the 2 war crimes she already committed (this is just the pre-patch of BfA btw), still keeps popular support until she tries to kill the burger Baine, then when she betrays literally everyone she STILL gets away with it and doesn't die, is in the process of being redeemed while Elune tells Tyrande to stop being angry that her people got exterminated.

So Yes, the Horde committed genocide twice and got away with it twice while looking good and badass.

Meanwhile Jaina kills 20 elves in Dalaran once and the entire Alliance (in-universe), Horde, and community hates her, it's clear that the Alliance is never allowed to have balls. They can't even make incidents, Alleria does an oopsie at the Sunwell and everyone treats her like she's the second coming of Satan. Meanwhile we got the Forsaken experimenting with the living and developing dangerous toxins since Classic but no one cares.

The Alliance is literally neutered. But now that Turalyon is High King hopefully they will take a more direct approach. Which doesn't equate to committing genocide, but it does equate to not let the Horde walk on them any further. And by "walk on them" I mean "stomp them and grind them to dust".

Yeah, as I said the Alliance is stuck with the forgiving hero role. But in order to be that hero, you need to suffer a hit. And your examples of Jaina and Alleria just mean that the communities are not ready to see things turn around.

But I also think it's a community problem. Alliance players being so vocal about Horde warcrimes, you expect their faction to be clean, because otherwise, they'd lose their right to complain. So I guess if the Alliance is on the verge of doing something bad, Horde gets equally vocal about it, plus throwing the hypocrisy card.

All in all, I think it's just a problem of people being too invested in the story. But not in all the story, otherwise they'd keep a look on every perspective and stop throwing accusations at the other side.