I dont want “renewal”. Here is why.

[VladlTutushkin]

I share some level of cynicism but I refuse to make that conclusion until it happens. As far as having watched the end cutscene now, it seems like Sylvanas will face some sort of "justice" but I'm worryingly concerned it won't involve us actually killing her because something something "whole soul now" BS. But I also don't think we'll just suddenly hold hands and work with Sylvanas like nothing happened. It seems more like she'll be a prisoner, willingly give us some information to help stop Zovaal, and after that is anyone's guess.

Its either Kerrigan scenario with her becoming a new “death goddess” or her escaping and becoming neutral.

You know, would be fun if Tyrande just stabbed Thrall when they come back to Azeroth if he tried to talk with her, stating that “you forgot about the deal already?”.

[DatToffer]

I share some level of cynicism but I refuse to make that conclusion until it happens. As far as having watched the end cutscene now, it seems like Sylvanas will face some sort of "justice" but I'm worryingly concerned it won't involve us actually killing her because something something "whole soul now" BS. But I also don't think we'll just suddenly hold hands and work with Sylvanas like nothing happened. It seems more like she'll be a prisoner, willingly give us some information to help stop Zovaal, and after that is anyone's guess.

Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande. She doesn't need it to become the Arbiter, she'll have a blue flame head, like the Brokers, lol.

My guess is also that she's gonna be a prisoner, but we won't have any choice but to listen to her and accept her quests. Pretty sure she's gonna make us fetch Nathanos and some sweet personal belongings, all the while trying to convince the different leaders to let her fight the Jailer.

I still don't understand why people thinks the "War" in Warcraft has to refer to the war between Horde and Alliance, that narrative has been forced for fuckin' ages.

Remember in woltk when the Horde and the Alliance marched together in Icecrown and the Horde general thought it was a good idea to just attack the Alliance from behind, effectively losing both troops to the Scourge ? Man what a time.

[Myradin]

I still don't understand why people thinks the "War" in Warcraft has to refer to the war between Horde and Alliance, that narrative has been forced for fuckin' ages. Azeroth and the world as a whole is generally, constantly in war with something, so why does the Horde vs Alliance War matter so much?

This is something I always found too. Every big bad we fight is effectively waging war on us and we fight it.

Even Warcraft 3, the game that lead directly into WoW, had very little HvA, and when it was, it was mostly just filler since an RTS needs enemies to fight

[Daronokk]

But it wont! We will not have cross faction PvE. We wont have new quests showing cooperation. We will not be allowed to activate the “peace mode” in open world and walk into each other cities.

We will have another faction war in two… maaaaybe three expansions and endless retarded “we no friends despite plot saying we are” moments before that.

If you want us to have peace then have balls to show just how peaceful we can get Blizz!

Why even go for lasting peace when we can have lasting war?

I wouldn't mind content like the Battle of Dazar'alor raid with separated faction storylines continueing for years. Why can't each faction have their own content? Their own storylines? War would be meaningful instead of trying to fake a war while nothing ever really changes?

Lasting peace doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things seeing what the franchise is like at the core. It's about Orcs vs Humans / Horde vs Alliance. All the rest is just extra. It's not essential.

The current powercreep that has us fighting cosmic forces and gods is only needed because we're running out of bad guys. These unknown forces are only created for us to defeat. But we don't need such nonsense storylines if we can have lasting faction war.

We'd see heroes rise over the course of an expansion and perhaps fall an expansion or two later (Like Garrosh, Varian, Anduin's storylines advancing in time). We'd have room for new characters to play their parts. Zones could swap faction every once in a while to make the world more dynamic. It opens up a lot of opportunity, for gameplay and for story.

It would also be more down to earth as we'd be fighting eachother as opposed to gods. There would still be plenty of room for 'epic' storylines in which you for example go covert ops in a major enemy city and rescue some forces while blowing up a large part of the city and battle an enemy hero. The opposite faction could have the opposite side of that story. They could make changes to zones depending on wether you completed certain storylines, zones could be damaged, conquered, switching sides, have neutral enemies take over, you name it.

Peace just doesn't seem interesting in the long term. Status quo is boring. I'd rather double down on war and change.

[Syegfryed]

Can you snark some more at the wall

pottle meet kettle

cause, what is your point rly? seems like you want people to acknowledge your claim and feel pity, cause, like i said, everyone knows the lore is garbage and they are fucking over the races, seems like you are on a crusade to tell people that night elves are getting the worse, when they aren't.

I will sum it up for you - being ignored is infinitely better then being shat on. I’d rather have nothing then a pile of crap lobbed at me.

I agree, why i agree on that? because i know the feeling, is what happening to the horde since vanilla

The problem is how you are trying to make a huge deal like this is something new, or worse for the night elves. Seems worse because you like then more, but other races get worse and they don't complain every day

Until Ashenvale status is officially confirmed we cant know who holds but Horde held it the last time we saw it. They keep dancing around the issue, not mentioning it even in Exploring Kalimdor so whatever the status of the zone is it is bad enough to hide it.

???

not even in bfa, after darkshore, Horde did hold ashenvale, they skipped past trought to get darkshore

they don't need to mention it was retaken by the alliance because they never lost in the first place

Those tauren got exiled from Thunderbluff city itself, not their whole land. Plus it was AFTER they strung up Hawthorn from a tree like a ham.

exactly, that is the end of anyone who try to get revenge or attack the enemy in a "satisfactory way", they die, they become villains or get exiled.

This was going to happen with tyrande, she was going to be vengeful but die, that is the fate of everyone of horde

But no, they prefered to stay with her because fanservice, because alliance character forgive and forget and live, horde characters get dumb and genocidal and die

now is the thing, would your ather dying in vengeance or staying alive? cause both is not possible, sorry

If we get to do what Horde did in Cata and Pandaria you are welcome to storm the Stormwind and kill… Genn. And maybe Shaw… nah, some “Second in Command” standing for Shaw.

Alliance was attacking horde since vanilla until cata that they fought back, and in cata they fought equaly.

Are you saying you are ok with Anduin attacking the night elves and then stormwind being raided and sacked by the horde?

im sure you would cause you like night elves mroe than humans, but what if it was the other way around?

Cause note how you want to sacrifice Gen and Shaw but why didn't yous aid for us to kill Malfurion or Tyrande?

Also Sylvanas becoming Light worshipper again (for example) and basically converting into “goodie two shoes” mode is not worse then dying? Well fuck! Why do you hate Baine so much then, hmmm? Or Sadfang? Yeah. Leaders better off dead then becoming something opposite of what they were.

you are just comparing absoluts when they are distant from the truth, try to be more close to reality when doing those examples so the argument don't sound so absurd.

Its funny that you brought "sadfang" into this conversation because Saurfang is a clearly example of how orcs get worse treatment than night elves in this game by a mile

Take your most praised hero, that everybody respect, make him a fool, a traitor, a weakling and a coward the entire expansion, let him be taught what is honor, a concept he hold his whole life, by a human child and murder him for not fucking reasons other than elevate the writer waifu.

Not satisfied, wanting to shat on him even more transform his soul into a trinket in the new raid.

But noooo, they decided that Tyrande should live and not make her a villain thirst for blood, THAT was straw that broke the camel's back

[username993720]

Well, actually i would want “renewal” if it was any other setting the WoW and any other narrative team.

And if it wasnt the Nth time we have to do this song and dance.

I am tired, mentally done with “renewal” because it will not last a moment. Because it will never affect the game.

Is that just me or… it feels dreadful. Do you feel that too?

I am not even against “renewal” now! Yes for fucks sake, i am at the point where getting over a mutilation of my favourite race is fine with me. I can find it in me to hug it out with the Horde. (If you wash first).


But its worthless! If we have to crush our own necks for this “renewal”, swallow whatever pride we have left, spit on the ashes of the dead and move on through pain and despair then it should MEAN SOMETHING!

For example - cross faction gameplay. Not “merging” factions but having like “cross faction hubs” where people can group up for dungeons and other content.

Actual lasting, respectful peace between Horde and Alliance. No more of that “annual war crime whoopsie”.

Show of good will from the Horde and Alliance towards each other, whatever form those exchanges and interactions may take.

Such colossal act of peacemaking and change should have feasible effects on the world.

But it wont! We will not have cross faction PvE. We wont have new quests showing cooperation. We will not be allowed to activate the “peace mode” in open world and walk into each other cities.

We will have another faction war in two… maaaaybe three expansions and endless retarded “we no friends despite plot saying we are” moments before that.

If you want us to have peace then have balls to show just how peaceful we can get Blizz!

For PvE purposes i agree. Lore supports it as well. For PvP - hell no. I don't want World of Peacecraft, friendship and love.

[Nagawithlegs]

I think Blizzard really shot themselves in the foot by not enabling the neutral mode in 9.0. BFA sets it up and it would work fine in Shadowlands... but they either didn't have enough time to code it in, or they want to sell it as a box feature in 10.0.

[The Stormbringer]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

That's a bullshit excuse. You know why? Because the WAR in WARCRAFT doesn't have to be between the two playable factions. They can be "at war" with other groups. It's not a difficult concept.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't understand why people thinks the "War" in Warcraft has to refer to the war between Horde and Alliance, that narrative has been forced for fuckin' ages. Azeroth and the world as a whole is generally, constantly in war with something, so why does the Horde vs Alliance War matter so much?

Yes, this! Exactly! Why is that so hard for people to get? Geez. Hell, in WC3 we had "four factions", not including the Burning Legion and other neutral parties.

[StationaryHawk]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

Then why do I spend so much of my time fighting enemies besides the Horde or Alliance? If the faction conflict can't be done away with because "it's called WARcraft not PEACEcraft" then perhaps the writers should stop sidelining it in favour of cosmic threats.

Peace just doesn't seem interesting in the long term. Status quo is boring. I'd rather double down on war and change.

Doubling down on the faction conflict would be just as stale. World of Warcraft can't have either side emerge victorious, and the community already throws a fit when the Horde captures X settlements while the Alliance only captures Y. Nothing meaningful would ever come of it.

[mickybrighteyes]

Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

well because we just always forget when the alliance does it.

Like how we collectively forget Garrosh didn't declare the war we blame him for.

Or the alliance invading territories for their own idea of justice instead of it being conquest like Varian wanted... Yeah it gets really sad seeing it happen yet again where we have a good warmonger story derailed because they can't simply leave the vengeful angry warmongering person what they wrote them as for a solid year...

RIP elune's darkest face. You were the last chance for night elves to get taken seriously

[spalernTJ]

Remember in woltk when the Horde and the Alliance marched together in Icecrown and the Horde general thought it was a good idea to just attack the Alliance from behind, effectively losing both troops to the Scourge ? Man what a time.

That's exactly the dumb, forced narrative we see enhanced these days. Attacking your temporary allies in the back, during an assault against a greater enemy... One you cannot defeat on your own... What a brilliant strategy.

[gaymer77]

Craft is in the name too. So why isn't the game based on crafting everything?


Because it's just a name and doesn't mean what you are trying to make it mean.

Definition of warcraft

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That's a bullshit excuse. You know why? Because the WAR in WARCRAFT doesn't have to be between the two playable factions. They can be "at war" with other groups. It's not a difficult concept.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, this! Exactly! Why is that so hard for people to get? Geez. Hell, in WC3 we had "four factions", not including the Burning Legion and other neutral parties.

And there has been war between other forces that the Horde and Alliance have fought. Did you forget what was going on with Burning Crusade, Legion, Wrath, Cata, the end half of BFA, and the entirety of Shadowlands? It was/is all Horde & Alliance vs another group of people

[exochaft]

There's a couple things going on with this topic, so I'll try to be succinct.

One of the issues I see cropping up is a design flaw of the game, where we as the players have no say in how the story plays out for us. I'm not saying we get to write the literal story of the game, but there is no gray area in which we can reside. There was a slight sliver of such agency when you could choose to be for or against Sylvannas in BfA, but that quickly fizzled never to be seen again. As it stands, all of our chars are just the squires of our faction main NPCs, and we blindly follow what they do. From a narrative perspective, that's not satisfying at all, especially if we vehemently disagree with their decisions because they are silly/nonsensical. Ultimately, we are far removed from being integral in this story (as well as much of the story being outside the game now), and it just makes main NPCs doing stupid things feel that much more frustrating as we have no in-game recourse.

Another aspect with the direction of the story specifically: as I've said in another thread a while ago, Blizz writers have a severe confusion of what forgiveness really means and allows. It's a very Christian-influenced concept that forgiveness does not absolve restitution, but it's misunderstood quite often as "just forgive everything and we're good!" Basically, the Christian world view is that you may forgive someone of their crimes, but that in no way means they should not pay for their crimes to those who were subject to said crimes. Instead, we tend to get the misunderstood or bastardized versions: straight up forgiveness with no consequences for the actions that required forgiveness, or just no forgiveness is possible no matter what level of restitution being performed. The former is basically what happens in most mainstream stories (WoW included) as of late, the latter... well, you only have to look towards Twitter mobs and "woke" culture, but the origin of such mentalities predates Christianity in governments and culture (and was one of the aspects of the pre-Christian world they were trying to change, as the latter was the norm almost everywhere). If anything, one could understand how unsatisfying things would be if redemption did not come at a cost equal to weight of the crimes committed, as this is what happens all the time when powerful people and politicians get away with crimes/corruption with no penalty

Both of the above concepts combined is very frustrating with the WoW narrative, as one provides a very unsatisfying resolution that lacks restitution and the other forces you to accept it with no agency or recourse within the confines of the game.

[Nagawithlegs]

There's a couple things going on with this topic, so I'll try to be succinct.

Doesnt the argument about forgiveness fall flat when the resolution with Sylvanas hasn’t happened? “What fans think is going to happen “ isn’t an argument: Sylvanas could blow herself into pieces and be triple dead in a few patches.

I understand it about the Bad Horde in BFA not getting punished, but that’s a limitation of the game. Sylvanas Loyalists aren’t going to be forced to pay reparations or beat up IRL.

[Mehrunes]

Remember in woltk when the Horde and the Alliance marched together in Icecrown and the Horde general thought it was a good idea to just attack the Alliance from behind, effectively losing both troops to the Scourge ? Man what a time.

Except they didn't march together. The factions were already at war at the time, thanks to the Alliance declaring it and have stopped cooperating. The Horde force just stumbled upon the Alliance one and attacked it from behind.

[Skirdus]

Vengeance and renewal are not mutually exclusive concepts

[Aurrora]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

You do realize that war doesn't stop happening if the Horde and Alliance manage to realize that they work better as allies against the constant existential threats that keep showing up right? Kinda like how the game managed to still be Warcraft since vanilla despite the fact that the Night Elves aligned with the Human faction? There's still plenty of nonplayer factions to be at war with.

[Claymore]

So, uhh... I'll admit, I don't fully follow the OP.

I'll say for my own part, I would like players to be treated as "Adventurers" OUTSIDE of any NPC faction. So if I want to play my Orc Warrior and do something with my friend's Dwarf Hunter, that should be totally fine. I'm not pledged to Orgrimmar, and he's not pledged to Ironforge. That freedom would be AMAZING.

That said, I would still maintain factions in terms of "the world itself". Letting Humans and Night Elves walk around Orgrimmar would be weird. Hell, maybe there could even be "sub-factions", like "some towns are willing to accept members of the Horde, except they still do not trust Undead". Or maybe Blood Elves can travel through Stormwind (Friendly to some NPC's, Neutral with others), but not Ironforge.

I'd love to see the role-playing aspect elevated a bit further, honestly.

[DatToffer]

Except they didn't march together. The factions were already at war at the time, thanks to the Alliance declaring it and have stopped cooperating. The Horde force just stumbled upon the Alliance one and attacked it from behind.

Ha yeah, it's true it happened after the Wrathgate incident. And the lack of cooperation in Ulduar.

[Orange Joe]

Definition of warcraft

I don't see where it says Alliance and Horde must be in a constant stat of war. Just fighting the big bad PVE baddies fulfills the warcraft part then.