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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Which, again, you're making an implication for which there is no evidence - we have no idea what the Eredar might have done had they not been corrupted by Sargeras. Seems rather fanciful and more than a little bias-confirming based on the text of Chronicle, in my view.
    I am making an assumption on their goal and since they basically wanted to more or less shape the universe to their whim

    I also don't recall Velen ever being afraid that an uncorrupted Kil'jaeden or Archimonde would kill him, at least not until he knew the full import of what Sargeras intended and knew that his brothers would become demonic once they accepted the offer.
    It happens at the exact same moment he warns them the first time. It is right there in chronicle.

    The Draenei were tricked by Sargeras and forcibly converted to demons en masse, a distinction the Elves do not share in. They did avoid being corrupted en masse because of that, but they still a had large cross-section of their people who willingly accepted the Legion's (and the Old Gods') offer knowing full well the results. Neither Azshara, Xavius, Peroth'arn, or Kael'thas have the same mitigating excuse that Archimonde or Kil'jaeden would.
    They had a decent shot, but failed as Velen so nicely put it, he is culpable in the whole mess.

    The Legion as a major power is gone now, so there's no way of confirming your supposition.
    It might be gone now, but the children of argus slaughtered their way through the merry cosmos for thousands and thousands of years is still a fact, the chances of any other race catching up to their mass murdering tendencies is quite unlikely.

    Though we can continue this for hours on end and will never agree, I know the entire sourcematerial canon and non canon and have come to my conclussion you have reached yours.

    My final statement concerning the children of Argus, they are easily corruptible parasites, with a habit of spreading misery wherever they go and likely will never be able to atone for the suffering they caused across the cosmos and most damning of all a walking talking retcon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    The elves never did it on their own. They needed outside help every time, no different than the Draenei.
    That wasn't the point, the point was the vast majority of the Eredar never resisted, nor did the vast majority of the draenei going forward, their motto was running and ignoring their problem , until they couldn't run any longer they got put in the ground, by a bunch of caveman pretty hard.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post


    That wasn't the point, the point was the vast majority of the Eredar never resisted, nor did the vast majority of the draenei going forward, their motto was running and ignoring their problem , until they couldn't fight any longer they got put in the ground, by bunch of caveman pretty hard.
    Most didn't resist because they were "tricked", an excuse the Horde knows and loves to use. Then you had the actual fighters of the Draenei join the Army of Light and literally fight against the Legion for a thousand years. (Who ended up stomping the caveman so hard in another alternate timeline, the cavemen had to run away to another reality)
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2021-08-18 at 09:25 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  3. #83
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I am making an assumption on their goal and since they basically wanted to more or less shape the universe to their whim
    There is a pretty stark difference between "shaping the universe to one's whim" and bringing enlightenment and peace to the universe. We can debate the means to ends question all day and make no forward progress, but from a semantic and syntactic standpoint, the two things aren't synonymous. Your assumption is as equally possible and unknowable as any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It happens at the exact same moment he warns them the first time. It is right there in chronicle.
    According to page. 51 of Chronicle Vol. 1 it happens after Velen's Naaru-provided vision of the Eredar becoming demons, and the context makes it clear he is afraid the *demonic* Kil'jaeden and Archimonde could kill him (or worse). That is why they flee Argus to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They had a decent shot, but failed as Velen so nicely put it, he is culpable in the whole mess.
    Velen certainly feels culpable, and that's his right. But we're talking more objectively than Velen could, given the circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It might be gone now, but the children of argus slaughtered their way through the merry cosmos for thousands and thousands of years is still a fact, the chances of any other race catching up to their mass murdering tendencies is quite unlikely.

    Though we can continue this for hours on end and will never agree, I know the entire sourcematerial canon and non canon and have come to my conclussion you have reached yours.

    My final statement concerning the children of Argus, they are easily corruptible parasites, with a habit of spreading misery wherever they go and likely will never be able to atone for the suffering they caused across the cosmos.
    The forcibly converted demonic beings who were formerly the "children of Argus," sure. No one is saying the demonic Eredar weren't horrifically bad, either.

    But if you're completely set in your opinion and unwilling or unable to accept mitigating circumstances exist, then you're correct that there's no dialectic to be had. I think you've reached a bad conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but if your mind is made up then that's that.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Most didn't resist because they were "tricked", an excuse the Horde knows and loves to use. Then you had the actual fighters of the Draenei join the Army of Light and literally fight the against Legion for a thousand years. (Who ended up stomping the caveman so hard in another alternate timeline, the cavemen had to run away to another reality)
    And the majority continued to run and condemned the worlds that hosted them as the good little parasites they are at heart, never adjusting their society to an all-time war one, all the while their leader acknowledging being culpable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    T
    But if you're completely set in your opinion and unwilling or unable to accept mitigating circumstances exist, then you're correct that there's no dialectic to be had. I think you've reached a bad conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but if your mind is made up then that's that.
    Of course I won't change my opinion, I know everything there is to know about the situation and made my interpretation accordingly, you are willing to cut the squidfaced retcons some slack, I don't.

    Same way the orcs deserved the internment camps and still got off too lightly

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And the majority continued to run and condemned the worlds that hosted them as the good little parasites they are at heart, never adjusting their society to an all-time war one, all the while their leader acknowledging being culpable.
    The Army of Light was their warrior society. Throwing every single able body at the Legion would be incredibly stupid when the Legion literally uses souls as fuel for their powerful spells.

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    The Draenei could have thrown everything they had against the Legion, been completely and utterly destroyed, and you would still blame the Draenei that they just fed the Legion a ton of souls and made them more powerful.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2021-08-18 at 09:37 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    The Army of Light was their warrior society. Throwing every single able body at the Legion would be incredibly stupid when the Legion literally uses souls as fuel for their powerful spells.
    The army of the light isn't the majority of their race and leading them to entire worlds to harvest isn't moronic? And yes having each and every member of your society ready to fight in a war if necessary is a no brainer in this situation, but alas the squids always lacked one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    The Draenei could have thrown everything they had against the Legion, been completely and utterly destroyed, and you would still blame the Draenei that they just fed the Legion a ton of souls and made them more powerful.
    Nope I'd have said good riddance, bloody retcons.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The army of the light isn't the majority of their race and leading them to entire worlds to harvest isn't moronic? And yes having each and every member of your society ready to fight in a war if necessary is a no brainer in this situation, but alas the squids always lacked one.
    What do you think the Legion would have been doing if they weren't chasing the Draenei and destroying worlds along the way? Playing beer pong?
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    What do you think the Legion would have been doing if they weren't chasing the Draenei and destroying worlds along the way? Playing beer pong?
    The BC Draenei are a mistake, the legion would have done as the legion always did. Creating the squiddies instead of using the original race was wrong. The Draenei magic led the legion to these world they might have gone under the radar for several thousand more years otherwise, the draenei murdered literally unlimited potential, merely by existing.

    So I am bored now and this won't most certainly go nowhere but it was fun
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2021-08-18 at 09:52 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Of course I won't change my opinion, I know everything there is to know about the situation and made my interpretation accordingly, you are willing to cut the squidfaced retcons some slack, I don't.
    A hate boner for draeni and naaru...interesting.

  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    I'd say the Dwarven proper are "evil" in a sense that they drive out local inhabitants or do ethnic cleanse just to dig and mine
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  11. #91
    Genn Greymane is pure evil.

  12. #92
    Genn Greymane literally committed a war crime in Legion.

  13. #93
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    hmmm... we have a stellar crew:


    Human: Arthas (then Kel'thuzzad)
    Orc: Gul'dan (then Garrosh)

    Draenei: Kil'jaeden (then Archimonde)
    Thalassian Elf: Sylvanas (then Dark'han)

    Night Elf: Azshara (then Xavius)
    Worgen: none

    Forsaken: Putris
    Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem

    Dwarf: King Thaurissian
    Gnome: King Mechagon

    Goblin: Gallywix
    Panda:

    Troll: Prophet Zul

    Interesting how several horde leaders actually make the list of most evil of race. However, it's the so called pretty/good races that are typically famous for virtue that have the most evil race members. (
    More on topic, I would probably put forward the following candidates:

    Human: Kel'Thuzad, Aedalas Blackmoore
    Orc: Gul'dan, Garrosh

    Draenei: Othaar/Socrethar, Thal'kiel (if you count the pre-demonic Eredar).
    High/Blood Elf: Dar'Khan Drathir, Sylvanas.

    Night Elf: Azsharas, Xavius
    Forsaken: Putress, Lord Godfrey

    Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem, Arnak Grimtotem
    Gnome: Sicco Thermaplugg, King Mechagon

    Dwarf: Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan, Modgud Thaurissan
    Darkspear Troll: Zalazane

    Worgen: Ralaar Fangfire
    Goblin: Jastor Gallywix, Trade Prince Donais

    Pandaren: The Jade Witch (pretty much by default)

    Differences I made involve the degree to which Arthas is culpable for his actions post-Frostmourne (e.g. having his soul devoured, being enslaved by the first Lich King, etc.), the notion that neither Archimonde nor Kil'jaeden actively chose evil, and the degree to which Sylvanas may not have been in full control of her actions with the reveal that part of her soul was missing. It was hard to think of any truly evil Pandaren, but the Jade Witch in the Jade Forest had a penchant for turning people into jade statues with little real justification for her actions, making her pretty much the evilest Pandaren we've seen. Their history with the Sha probably accounts for their overall low will-to-evil ratio.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-08-19 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Updated to reflect the Thaurissan genealogy.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Ren'dorei: None.
    Ye Alleria totally did not contemplate killing her own sister because a voice in her head told her to(and that before the SL shenanigans). lul

  15. #95
    Whose definition of evil are we going by?

    Human: Anduin, Jaina: Guilty of forcing human potential of everyone and everything in sight. They are more corrupting than the Old Gods.

    Night Elf: Tyrande: She's let her people stagnate and become a joke compared to their original incarnations. Any leader who allows Teldrassil to happen under their watch is about the epitome of incompetent. Or perhaps...intentionally negligent? Hm...

    Worgen: Genn: Big bad werewolf pet to Anduin. Trying to start wars when world is being invaded by demons. Bad dog.

    Gnomes: Hard to say. They have plenty of crackpot scientists doing all sorts of nefarious experiments on well...everything.

    Dwarves: Oh Magni...becoming a slave puppet for the planet led us directly into the hands of our enemies time and time again. Pretty sure he is trying to kill us by throwing us at all these "villains". Never trust a dwarf that shiny.

    Void Elves: Alleria literally looked at her people and said "yeah, no" and then tried to destroy the Sunwell while feigning ignorance. Total bitch move, definitely a void lord in disguise.

    Draenei: Yrel is what the Alliance wishes it were; a dominating force of "good" that forces its will on others convert or die style.. Anduin will get on her level someday if he can get saved by all his friends.

    Orcs: Saurfang betrayed his people and got adopted by Anduin. I'll never forget what he did to the Horde, and I'll never forgive him, either.

    Tauren: Baine is actually on a whole other level from Saurfang, his depravity and cohorting with the enemy is completely off the rails. Again, his betrayal of the Horde is simply unforgivable.

    Trolls: Actually, I'll put Zul'jin here. That rat bastard was cool af, but he decided to get himself gibbed as an npc raid boss. After all he and the Horde had been through, his betrayal stung quite a bit.

    Blood Elves: Lor'themar is the closest to a villain in my eyes, because he -almost- turned traitor and fell to the dark allure of the Alliance hivemind. Shame, Regent-Lord. Shame.

    Goblins: There are no evil goblins.

    Forsaken: Calia Menethil shouldn't be here, because let's be honest...she isn't a Forsaken, but an Alliance human with makeup pretending to be dead. But as she is being forcefully pushed into Horde leadership for some reason, she gets the spot hands down for her attempt at brainwashing the poor free willed undead. Sylvanas is a close 2nd, though.

    Pandaren: Who cares.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    Magni wasn't more evil than Thaurissian lol. Thaurissian kidnaps Moira to hold her hostage from Ironforge, Magni has him assassinated, because he still believed Moria was a prisoner and not his willing wife.

    Not to mention Magni later spent two expansion communing with Azeroth to save the her from the Legion, the Old Gods and the massive hemorrhaging of her blood across the surface. This is in comparison to Thaurissian who made a deal with Ragnaros, putting the Dark Irons into his service.
    I feel like the fact that Moira knew both well, fell in love with the person who was supposed to be her bloodsworn enemy, and hated her father, is enough evidence to show that Magni is not a great dwarf. Under his leadership, the dwarves committed genocide against tauren and defiled their ancestral lands.

    Also, Dagran Thaurissan isn't the one who caused the Dark Iron dwarves to be enslaved by Ragnaros. Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan is the one who summoned Rag, who then enslaved the Dark Irons and put Dagran to rule the dwarves as his servant.

  17. #97
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Race isn't really a function of biology, it's a division defined by phenotypic characteristics.
    In wow race and species are close related, and most of the time the same, and yes it is about biology

    Draeneis are the original Eredar, they just changed name, the demonic one, are changed eredar, they are the man'ari

    Since, Kil'jaden and archimonde, came from the original eredar(the draenei race) it does make sense to put then on the same bag, maybe op should open a aprenthisis to highlight that interaction like,[I] Eredar(Draenei)[/i)

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I feel like the fact that Moira knew both well, fell in love with the person who was supposed to be her bloodsworn enemy, and hated her father, is enough evidence to show that Magni is not a great dwarf. Under his leadership, the dwarves committed genocide against tauren and defiled their ancestral lands.

    Also, Dagran Thaurissan isn't the one who caused the Dark Iron dwarves to be enslaved by Ragnaros. Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan is the one who summoned Rag, who then enslaved the Dark Irons and put Dagran to rule the dwarves as his servant.
    Magni wasn't a great dwarf, but he has done a lot for Azeroth and the rest of the world since Legion. Dagran is the one who made the deal with ragnaros, Sorcer-Thane summoned him but didnt make the deal

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Myokony View Post
    Ye Alleria totally did not contemplate killing her own sister because a voice in her head told her to(and that before the SL shenanigans). lul
    You... you mean the sister who was allied with a Death God that wants to wipe out the universe to make one that serves only him? The sister that nearly wiped out the Nightelves for fun? The sister that murdered innocents in sick expirements for decades?

    Yeah, how ever could Alleria contemplate killing that shining beacon of truth, justice and innocence that is Sylvanas. In fact she didn't even contemplate it, it was just the Void telling her to do it, because Sylvanas was with the "Enemy of all" something that literally scared the voices into a panic. As it turns out they were completely right and killing Sylvanas at that point would have saved thousands of lifes. Sadly Alleria chose to resist the voices.

  20. #100

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