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  1. #121
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    There's no evidence for Maraad being alive before the departure from Argus, it seems more likely he was born aboard the Genedar at some point between the diaspora and reaching Draenor.
    that, sadly, we will never know.
    And it's not just the unique model - there are features of Velen that most other Draenei don't have, features he shares with his brothers Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. As I said previously, his frame is a lot less robust than other Draenei males, and though you could chalk that up to his age it matches the appearance of Kil'jaeden and Archimode (who like Velen are a lot more proportional along the humanoid baseline). The cranial crests that he has are also more pronounced and stand up straighter than other Draenei, looking more akin to vertical scales than the swept-back versions other Draenei have, which again looks more traditionally Eredar than Draenei.
    That just seems like you are looking too much into the unique models and their differences, as we can see as the rest of the manari are just red draenei

    Archmonde looks even more like a regular draenei


    I mean you could claim the same thing for the High Elves and Night Elves, too; but they're accorded as different races in the Warcraft universe.
    the high elves are presicely recorded as the same race with just a name change, same thing for draenei, with the elvest, blizzard themsleves even confirmed confirmed many times

    Azshara as she is now does not - she's a Naga, as far from a Night Elf as the Draenei are from the demonic Eredar.
    She came came from the night elves, thats why it makes sense to count her as "evil night elf" she didnt born as naga.

    Same thing for kil'jaden and archimonde, not born manari, they were born eredar(same race species of the draenei)

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    Both of those things weren't intended, and the latter was forced against his will. Hell, the entire reason the planet got torn apart was because he wanted to find another world for the Orcs that wasn't Azeroth. A shades of grey decision.

    Honestly though, he really wasn't *that* evil. He was tricked by the Legion into turning the Orcs away from their old ways, but caught on and attempted to stop - only Gul'dan, who had been watching, was well aware of how evil the Legion was, and served willingly, ratted him out, enslaving his former master and making him little more than a pet, a servant to fetch things for him and the Shadow Council. Heck, it was here that Ner'zhul even warned the Frostwolves about drinking the chalice.

    Gul'dan is easily the top of the list as most evil orc. Heck, remember how he was having children's lives being drained by warlocks to forcibly age them to fight?
    Not really a shades of grey decision if you keep their intentions of conquest in mind, Azeroth too was to be a refuge - after its bloody conquest.
    To paint him as a desperate refugee seems dishonest.

    He had some redeeming intentions, but very little of it manifested in practice; he went from a mad fool to a sad tool.

    And let's be honest: abusing children is hardly worth mentioning against a backdrop of genocide, planetary destruction and more.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Not really a shades of grey decision if you keep their intentions of conquest in mind, Azeroth too was to be a refuge - after its bloody conquest.
    To paint him as a desperate refugee seems dishonest.
    The alternative was to let his species continue to turn on itself. It's worth also noting that Gul'dan was the one responsible for that.

    He had some redeeming intentions, but very little of it manifested in practice; he went from a mad fool to a sad tool.
    You're overlooking his origins a bit there. He genuinely believed he was helping his people, and genuinely believed the Draenei were some sort of threat, per his (previously accurate) prophetic dreams. When he realised he was being fooled, he tried to put a stop to it. He was actually a noble and brave orc, despite what he did afterwards.

    Gul'dan has only ever wanted power.

    And let's be honest: abusing children is hardly worth mentioning against a backdrop of genocide, planetary destruction and more.
    True, but we're talking about 'evil' not 'successful at killing.'

    "Painfully draining the lives of 5 year olds in front of their parents to turn them into soldiers" is pretty fucking evil.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    hmmm... we have a stellar crew:


    Human: Arthas (then Kel'thuzzad)
    Orc: Gul'dan (then Garrosh)

    Draenei: Kil'jaeden (then Archimonde)
    Thalassian Elf: Sylvanas (then Dark'han)

    Night Elf: Azshara (then Xavius)
    Worgen: none

    Forsaken: Putris
    Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem

    Dwarf: King Thaurissian
    Gnome: King Mechagon

    Goblin: Gallywix
    Panda:

    Troll: Prophet Zul

    Interesting how several horde leaders actually make the list of most evil of race. However, it's the so called pretty/good races that are typically famous for virtue that have the most evil race members. (
    Dalaran Human: Kel'Thuzad - dude was very evil. he is most evil human ever.
    Lordaeron Human: Arthas was more like dumb and stubborn guy who got himself cursed. while KT choose his road willingly and enjoyed it
    Orc: Gul'Dan. both versions. evil incarnate
    Quel'Dorei: Dar'Khan Drathir - also power hungry guys who sold his own people and country to real evil for more power
    Gnome: Mekgineer Thermaplugg - for personal gains and animosity vs Gelbin, he made Gnomes irradiate Gnomeregan, thus killing it's people and irradiating remaining ones (including himself)
    Worgen: do not seem to have anyone evil. they are mostly result of tragic circumstances
    Kul Tiran Humans: Lady Ashvane - manipulator, power hungry and ruthless bitch. betrays her own nation and any other ally to anyone for her personal gains. also she uses child labor
    Gilnean Humans: nothing much here. Lord GOdfrey, who in his blind hatred for worgen, doomed his own nation by betraying his own king + allying with forsaken and betraying them as well
    Alterac Humans : Lord Perenolde, who sold Human Allaince to Orcish horde and later allied himself to returned Horde again
    Stromgarde Humans: Prince Galen, who killed his own father for crown, and resulted kingdom to be left in ruins. later raised by forsaken and betrayed them as well
    Stormwind Human: they do not have such absolute evil guy
    Wildhammer Dwarves - none here
    Dark Iron Dwarves - Queen Modgud, who, using dagger of Black Empire, helped her husband, king Thaurissan orchestrate new war against other 2 clans
    Mechagnomes - King Mechagon
    Lightforged Draenei - none
    Void Elves - none

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjc View Post
    Dalaran Human: Kel'Thuzad - dude was very evil. he is most evil human ever.
    Lordaeron Human: Arthas was more like dumb and stubborn guy who got himself cursed. while KT choose his road willingly and enjoyed it
    Orc: Gul'Dan. both versions. evil incarnate
    Quel'Dorei: Dar'Khan Drathir - also power hungry guys who sold his own people and country to real evil for more power
    Gnome: Mekgineer Thermaplugg - for personal gains and animosity vs Gelbin, he made Gnomes irradiate Gnomeregan, thus killing it's people and irradiating remaining ones (including himself)
    Worgen: do not seem to have anyone evil. they are mostly result of tragic circumstances
    Kul Tiran Humans: Lady Ashvane - manipulator, power hungry and ruthless bitch. betrays her own nation and any other ally to anyone for her personal gains. also she uses child labor
    Gilnean Humans: nothing much here. Lord GOdfrey, who in his blind hatred for worgen, doomed his own nation by betraying his own king + allying with forsaken and betraying them as well
    Alterac Humans : Lord Perenolde, who sold Human Allaince to Orcish horde and later allied himself to returned Horde again
    Stromgarde Humans: Prince Galen, who killed his own father for crown, and resulted kingdom to be left in ruins. later raised by forsaken and betrayed them as well
    Stormwind Human: they do not have such absolute evil guy
    Wildhammer Dwarves - none here
    Dark Iron Dwarves - Queen Modgud, who, using dagger of Black Empire, helped her husband, king Thaurissan orchestrate new war against other 2 clans
    Mechagnomes - King Mechagon
    Lightforged Draenei - none
    Void Elves - none
    Jungle Trolls - Jin'Do the Hexxer
    Forest Trolls - none are absolute evil
    Sand Trolls - General Jakra'zet
    Dark Trolls - none
    Ice Trolls - High Priestes of Loas, they killed their own loas for more power vs Lich King
    Zandalari Trolls - Zul. idk what kind of Prophet he was, but he betrayed his own nation, king and wanted all to be damned under Old God powers
    Ogre - Cho'Gall
    Forsaken - any

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    The alternative was to let his species continue to turn on itself. It's worth also noting that Gul'dan was the one responsible for that.



    You're overlooking his origins a bit there. He genuinely believed he was helping his people, and genuinely believed the Draenei were some sort of threat, per his (previously accurate) prophetic dreams. When he realised he was being fooled, he tried to put a stop to it. He was actually a noble and brave orc, despite what he did afterwards.

    Gul'dan has only ever wanted power.



    True, but we're talking about 'evil' not 'successful at killing.'

    "Painfully draining the lives of 5 year olds in front of their parents to turn them into soldiers" is pretty fucking evil.
    Hmm, fair enough on Gul'dan then, though mind you the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and what Ner'zhul did was a far cry from being good, and a lot worse than what Gul'dan did.

    And torturing kids might be evil, but next to the aforementioned it's a bit like "kicking the dog". Sure, evil.
    Still very odd to even mention it when the rest is orders of magnitude worse.
    It's a bit like trying to argue i.e. Stalin was worse than Hitler because Stalin ate meat; it's completely irrelevant to the question at that point.
    Last edited by loras; 2021-08-22 at 07:06 PM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  6. #126
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Technically Kil'jaeden and Archimonde were never Draenei - they were of the original Eredar, and only those who left Argus and avoided the corruption of the Eredar became the Draenei. I would say the evilest of the Draenei would likely be Exarch Othaar who became the demon Socrethar. The runner-up would probably be MU Maladaar, though that's tempered somewhat by the fact that he was driven insane and redeemed later by the Naaru.
    or we can see it in other view
    since Eredar IS the original race and draenei are exception, from average eredar value, most evil would be 'velen' since he is the worst for his race?

    or we talking about general good vs evil from all povs? blizz made lore muddy with how even light now is viewed as tyrannical fanatic just opposite to shadow instead of actual good force (check how naru enslave any race that oppose their will ...)
    i don't think there is anymore good vs evil in wow, just different pov, Sargeras think he is helping world by destroy the corrupted current version to start fresh actual good one, and so on
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  7. #127
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    or we can see it in other view
    since Eredar IS the original race and draenei are exception, from average eredar value, most evil would be 'velen' since he is the worst for his race?

    or we talking about general good vs evil from all povs? blizz made lore muddy with how even light now is viewed as tyrannical fanatic just opposite to shadow instead of actual good force (check how naru enslave any race that oppose their will ...)
    i don't think there is anymore good vs evil in wow, just different pov, Sargeras think he is helping world by destroy the corrupted current version to start fresh actual good one, and so on
    I think we're talking "most evil" from the Doylist/external perspective, or our perspective as it were. I would also argue that, at least thus far, we've actually only seen one evil Naaru in the form of Xe'ra - the others, at least insofar as we know, have acted kindly if not altruistically towards the mortal races they've been in contact with. A single evil example can't necessarily typify an entire species. Sargeras is an example of a sort of antiheroic antagonist, one whose goals are ostensibly noble but whose means are so horrific and monstrous that they eclipse any notion of mitigating "goodness" they might otherwise have.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    or we can see it in other view since Eredar IS the original race and draenei are exception, from average eredar value, most evil would be 'velen' since he is the worst for his race?

    or we talking about general good vs evil from all povs? blizz made lore muddy with how even light now is viewed as tyrannical fanatic just opposite to shadow instead of actual good force (check how naru enslave any race that oppose their will ...)
    i don't think there is anymore good vs evil in wow, just different pov, Sargeras think he is helping world by destroy the corrupted current version to start fresh actual good one, and so on
    Reminds me of the mistake Gary Gygax made when writing his Gord the Rogue novels. It seemed to me that he saw "lawful good" as intolerant of other alignments as seen in the condescending words and actions of a solar angel who lacked compassion, tolerance and understanding that a 2nd chance might bring a wayward soul back into the grace and light of being better.

  9. #129
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    It’s maybe not the race itself but the personality, for example we have we have Gul’dan who is an orc and he is evil as hell but we have also Thrall who is a softie.
    #SaveAlgalon
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  10. #130
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think we're talking "most evil" from the Doylist/external perspective, or our perspective as it were. I would also argue that, at least thus far, we've actually only seen one evil Naaru in the form of Xe'ra - the others, at least insofar as we know, have acted kindly if not altruistically towards the mortal races they've been in contact with. A single evil example can't necessarily typify an entire species. Sargeras is an example of a sort of antiheroic antagonist, one whose goals are ostensibly noble but whose means are so horrific and monstrous that they eclipse any notion of mitigating "goodness" they might otherwise have.
    we never saw 'evil' naaru because we never opposed them, the 1st time ever a mortal opposed them they had zero problem to just enslave him, yeah it is 'only' example, but it is a 100% correct example since it is also only time we opposed it (and if not clear, naaru was clearly wrong here)
    however the problem here is way wider, in older lore we had clear evil like Gul'dan, he is evil because he is just evil, no if or but or any explanation, Blackhand was a coward power hungry who will do anything to be in position, something again blizz decided nah we need every character to be 3d, made Gul'dan victim of abuse, Blackhand actually care and think that is right and so on
    And when every 'evil' character is 3D, no one is
    right now every villain in wow has a reason to be villain that makes him good in his eyes at least, turning wow to be from grander view war of 2 opposite views not good vs evil, a human will see Sargeras evil but Sargeras (or KJ for example) will see what he is doing a necessary evil for greater good, and that sucks and make a fantasy-based game less fantasy
    We didn't need background story for Gul'dan, or make KJ regret his actions, both those actions ruined great characters imo, Gul'dan was way better back when he was actually as he claims Evil Incarnate, not an abused emo kid, heck we didn't need to make Father Benedicus evil or make the light just a force with no will and naaru enslave any opposition in his fight
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  11. #131
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    we never saw 'evil' naaru because we never opposed them, the 1st time ever a mortal opposed them they had zero problem to just enslave him, yeah it is 'only' example, but it is a 100% correct example since it is also only time we opposed it (and if not clear, naaru was clearly wrong here)
    however the problem here is way wider, in older lore we had clear evil like Gul'dan, he is evil because he is just evil, no if or but or any explanation, Blackhand was a coward power hungry who will do anything to be in position, something again blizz decided nah we need every character to be 3d, made Gul'dan victim of abuse, Blackhand actually care and think that is right and so on
    And when every 'evil' character is 3D, no one is
    right now every villain in wow has a reason to be villain that makes him good in his eyes at least, turning wow to be from grander view war of 2 opposite views not good vs evil, a human will see Sargeras evil but Sargeras (or KJ for example) will see what he is doing a necessary evil for greater good, and that sucks and make a fantasy-based game less fantasy
    We didn't need background story for Gul'dan, or make KJ regret his actions, both those actions ruined great characters imo, Gul'dan was way better back when he was actually as he claims Evil Incarnate, not an abused emo kid, heck we didn't need to make Father Benedicus evil or make the light just a force with no will and naaru enslave any opposition in his fight
    Opposition isn't really the sole criteria for what constitutes "evil" - one case in point one would be Illidan, whom we opposed in TBC and were later upbraided for in Legion as his cause was nobler than we knew. I also agree that Gul'dan's extended background was a narrative mistake, and I enjoyed Gul'dan's character more when he was cast more as an outside evil, in a sense; someone whose evil neither had nor required any explanation or cause. His character didn't need a retroactive background to make him "more complex," he was fine as he was; an outside context antagonist whose malice and cruelty were elemental as opposed to attributive. I actually prefer the extended lore for Sargeras, however; because his nature as a Titan and his marked turn toward "evil" feels like it requires a suitable explanation beyond him getting confused and depressed about the existence of demons and evil in the universe. His fear of the Void and his misguided crusade to exterminate life because of it make a lot more sense than his previous muddled motivation. I don't really care about Benedictus that much, but I think he made a better Twilight Father than Rommath would've based on the early Cata Alpha material.

    That being said, Xe'ra's misguided actions toward Illidan can't really taint all Naaru as evil or extremist - that would be an extremely prejudicial stance on our part. No other Naaru has exhibited the same kind of hostility, indeed, they've all been helpful and beneficent towards us (those stationed on Outland specifically). While it is certainly possible the Naaru as a whole have an agenda that runs counter to "good" in the general sense, it's not in evidence in any fundamental sense. Which, for now at least, leaves Xe'ra as the outlier when it comes to evil or hostile Naaru.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #132
    One of the biggest mistakes Blizzard made in crafting Legion was pissing all over the Naaru...

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Panda:
    Less sarcastic answer than last time, going with the Shado-Pan. They're not evil, but man their methods are something else.

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...a/red-blossoms
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  14. #134
    garrosh? he just pulled out an umbric/alleria ante litteram. or you just reduce being against the "protagonists" as being evil?
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  15. #135
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Reminds me of the mistake Gary Gygax made when writing his Gord the Rogue novels. It seemed to me that he saw "lawful good" as intolerant of other alignments as seen in the condescending words and actions of a solar angel who lacked compassion, tolerance and understanding that a 2nd chance might bring a wayward soul back into the grace and light of being better.
    Mistake sounds a little harsh. Personally I always saw the Lawful Good alignment as the authoritarian, bureacratic, by-the-book alignment, always upholding the code of their respected figure of authority even if that authority themselves is a neutral/chaotic being. Paladins can be Lawful Good, the Light itself can be Chaotic Good or an unaligned force of the cosmos.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Night Elf: Azshara (then Xavius)
    with recent lore revelations? maybe Malfurion....You know... burning off countless souls to kamehameha an army and what not...

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