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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    You are wrong and using insults might actually get you into trouble on the forums. I've been active since development and BioWare themselves said it more than once: 'We hear you, wow in a star wars universe.'

    It's rough start was because 'starting area' was so fun but the rest couldn't handle the numbers/performance due to the game engine they chose. PvP response of character is so slow .. Mass PvP 40 vs 40 or more is impossible. And then some maps are BioWare walled and horrible. Story is laid way too thick and voice over everything is a terrible idea. They killed the alt experience. Last but not least blatant P2win ..
    BZZZ wrong. The rough start was 100% the lack of end game. They werent prepared for the speed mmo players rush to end game and didnt have enough prepared for it. This has been discussed in length over the years so I am not sure why you are trying to argue against this fact. The story is the best aspect of the entire game and what everyone talks about. The PvP was fine in most areas the Illum pvp zone was a bit rough though. But general leveling was fine once you got off the starter planet.

    The alt experience was great with the linked "family" style approach. And it is P2Win a bit now yes but it wasn't at launch.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    BZZZ wrong. The rough start was 100% the lack of end game. They werent prepared for the speed mmo players rush to end game and didnt have enough prepared for it. This has been discussed in length over the years so I am not sure why you are trying to argue against this fact. The story is the best aspect of the entire game and what everyone talks about. The PvP was fine in most areas the Illum pvp zone was a bit rough though. But general leveling was fine once you got off the starter planet.

    The alt experience was great with the linked "family" style approach. And it is P2Win a bit now yes but it wasn't at launch.
    It's definitly not pay to win.
    Only part you can consider are the best augments, which only drop from high end pve and pvp. But, they added a way for regular players to get the mats too now, at a slower pace from tech fragmemts i believe.

    Even if you use real money to buy stuff and resell them for credits on the GTN, you cannot jump the base gear progression. No point even getting augments without doing that first and aquiring the set bonus shells and tacticals.
    Just playing the game normally or crafting you can make the purple augments. The gold ones are more expensive but only slightly better. They are meant as the long term goal since SWTOR doesn't do new tiers often. Actually we are at one per expansion atm. It's very Guild wars atm. I don't dislike it, as your effort is rewarded for a long time.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-09-27 at 11:30 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    SNIP....

    It's rough start was because 'starting area' was so fun but the rest couldn't handle the numbers/performance due to the game engine they chose. PvP response of character is so slow .. Mass PvP 40 vs 40 or more is impossible. And then some maps are BioWare walled and horrible. Story is laid way too thick and voice over everything is a terrible idea. They killed the alt experience. Last but not least blatant P2win ..
    The above in factually false for the most when it comes to what killed swtor. What killed SWTOR and pushed it to F2P faster than damn near any other game in history (save one other that I can think of) was the lack of endgame and the ability delay bug that took them far to long to fix. Yes, PVP was an issue. Ilum could not handle the promised numbers. PVP was terrible. There were bugs everywhere and the ability delay bug was one of the worst possible things a game like this could have as it killed PVP and PVE alike. Skills not working when you press the button is a sure way to drive off your players but poor endgame for PVE and PVP was the killer.

    The story, alt play and voice however were never an issue. Quite the opposite. They were some of the best things to happen for swtor and it made leveling your main and alts a solid experience and vbastly more entertaining than alts in other MMOs. It didn't kill alt play by having those things but made you want to play more of them to see the 8 class stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    BZZZ wrong. The rough start was 100% the lack of end game. They werent prepared for the speed mmo players rush to end game and didnt have enough prepared for it. This has been discussed in length over the years so I am not sure why you are trying to argue against this fact. The story is the best aspect of the entire game and what everyone talks about. The PvP was fine in most areas the Illum pvp zone was a bit rough though. But general leveling was fine once you got off the starter planet.

    The alt experience was great with the linked "family" style approach. And it is P2Win a bit now yes but it wasn't at launch.
    Vampyrr is right and biwoare pretty much said so themselves. The massive lack of endgame hurt swtor beyond anything bioware comprehended. Bioware simply failed at making endgame. They seemed to know mmorpg gamers consumed content at a massive rate given what Ohlen said and still went solely off metrics for completion time and didn't make enough end game or even a group finder. Combine that with bugs in the one operation (Eternity Vault) that at times made even that one OPS unplayable. The game failed from poor design decisions in a number of areas but heavy story, alts and voice wasn't the issue for swtor thats for sure.

    You can read biowares words here. It's an old article but it checks out.

    https://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-...-old-republic/
    Refer code: http://www.swtor.com/r/t4QfLH
    What you get: 7 free days of play plus a bundle of goodies: http://www.swtor.com/info/friends

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I think people could have toughed it out with the relative lack of content at endgame if the content that DID exist was any good to begin with.

    Most encounters were uninspired as heck, Soa was buggy and not much fun besides, Ilum was a total trainwreck, just didn't give people a reason to wait for more.
    I would agree with this, for the most part.

    If Ilum and Eternity Vault had actually been fun and not buggy messes more people would have stuck it out, because the next operation was released just a couple months later with Karaggas Palace, which was pretty good.

    But the fact still is, their release schedule and priorities were based on a completely off-base assumption that players would take months to reach level cap. If they actually assumed player were going to reach cap and begin consuming end-game content within just a couple weeks, rather than 3+ months, they would have prioritized fixing the end game stuff so it wasn't a buggy mess. By the time the assumed 3-5 month time frame they thought people would be at end game was passed, the bugs were fixed and the first patch, along with the second operation were released.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Roxinius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I would agree with this, for the most part.

    If Ilum and Eternity Vault had actually been fun and not buggy messes more people would have stuck it out, because the next operation was released just a couple months later with Karaggas Palace, which was pretty good.

    But the fact still is, their release schedule and priorities were based on a completely off-base assumption that players would take months to reach level cap. If they actually assumed player were going to reach cap and begin consuming end-game content within just a couple weeks, rather than 3+ months, they would have prioritized fixing the end game stuff so it wasn't a buggy mess. By the time the assumed 3-5 month time frame they thought people would be at end game was passed, the bugs were fixed and the first patch, along with the second operation were released.
    the game would have definitely benefitted from another 6 months of polish but Ea wanted a holiday release
    Well then get your shit together.
    Get it all together. And put it in a backpack. All your shit. So it’s together. And if you gotta take it somewhere, take it somewhere, you know, take it to the shit store and sell it, or put it in a shit museum, I don’t care what you do, you just gotta get it together.
    Get your shit together

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxinius View Post
    the game would have definitely benefitted from another 6 months of polish but Ea wanted a holiday release
    I don't disagree, but it's not the lack of polish that killed the game. It was the lack of polish coupled with a distinct lack of endgame stuff because of their assumption it would take 3-5 months for most players to reach end game.

    If they had assumed it would take 3-5 WEEKS to hit end game and planned accordingly the more egregious of the two problems (lack of end game) would have been addressed, with bug fixes coming in due time. Bugs and stuff are expected, and are tolerated as long as there's something to keep people entertained while they get fixed. SWTOR didn't have that second part, except to play other classes, which is something that some people don't want to do.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Roxinius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't disagree, but it's not the lack of polish that killed the game. It was the lack of polish coupled with a distinct lack of endgame stuff because of their assumption it would take 3-5 months for most players to reach end game.

    If they had assumed it would take 3-5 WEEKS to hit end game and planned accordingly the more egregious of the two problems (lack of end game) would have been addressed, with bug fixes coming in due time. Bugs and stuff are expected, and are tolerated as long as there's something to keep people entertained while they get fixed. SWTOR didn't have that second part, except to play other classes, which is something that some people don't want to do.
    i think along with the lack of endgame the linear leveling paths made leveling alts painful
    Well then get your shit together.
    Get it all together. And put it in a backpack. All your shit. So it’s together. And if you gotta take it somewhere, take it somewhere, you know, take it to the shit store and sell it, or put it in a shit museum, I don’t care what you do, you just gotta get it together.
    Get your shit together

  8. #28
    Consular was super fun.
    Huttball kicks ass.
    I loved that game.
    Was also there from the beta.
    Think I'll reinstall again to check it out.
    Everyone else summed it all up.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxinius View Post
    i think along with the lack of endgame the linear leveling paths made leveling alts painful
    Agree, which is why the lack of endgame was the bigger culprit for why the game faltered, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    Consular was super fun.
    Huttball kicks ass.
    I loved that game.
    Was also there from the beta.
    Think I'll reinstall again to check it out.
    Everyone else summed it all up.
    It's still worth playing, it's still fun, but the amount of content they put out once a year or so can be chewed through in just a couple days, if that. I resub and play again a couple times a year because the joy of playing in the Star Wars universe with some of these classes is still there, there's just not enough content to keep me occupied for more than a week or so.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome
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    I paid to play SWTOR for 5+ years -

    What would get me back?

    Not fubaring the story every expansion. Multiple class stories is fine - until every different class lives in a different universe because different people died in their storyline than in other storylines. After Outlands, the story was a mess and - since myself and most of the people I had played with for YEARS with were also all active in RP - it was the 'nail in the coffin' for a large part of them. And has made it so most of us don't want to bother to come back.

    Nevermind the fact that none of the rest of the content in the game is up near to the same standard they created at launch - simply because they won't spend the money now on the voice acting, writing quality, etc. that they spent pre-launch.

    Update the game more regularly. I don't buy the bullshit of not having enough money - yea, they do. They just don't want to spend it where it matters - developing more content. A single planet to grind out another 5 or 10 levels in is not enough content every couple of years - and a few raids/dungeons in between don't cover it. A "new content patch" that consists of 5 rotating daily quests - is not content. This game is more than profitable - too bad they don't want to put it back into the actual game content. Problem plaguing a lot of online services these days :/.

    Don't have as MANY of the paywalls to regular play vs. monthly sub. The paywall to access your in game cash, hide helmet, emotes etc. should really be part of the 'free' base game and would encourage many of us former subbers to come back at least to visit and play on occasion if these things weren't locked behind a sub. I don't mind exp. or leveling limitations - bank or guild ship acesss etc. being limited. But the in game currency limits shouldn't be so low, (esp. if you're wanting people who use to sub and have tons of credits to want to come back) given as how the in game market is extremely built around long-term players (and the prices reflect that).

    The first two are the biggest two - never would have stopped paying 1-2 years ago and stopped playing if the above had not been the reality. And the third is why I've not bothered to 'jump back in' as a sub after the occasions when I actually had a reason/motivation to revisit the game and look at subbing again.

    Wish they'd redo it all and release a new Star Wars MMO - but clearly they aren't giving up on this pony yet.
    Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
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    inactive: Frith-Rae - Horizons/Istaria; Koriani in multiple old MMOs. I been around a long time.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    I paid to play SWTOR for 5+ years -

    What would get me back?

    Not fubaring the story every expansion. Multiple class stories is fine - until every different class lives in a different universe because different people died in their storyline than in other storylines. After Outlands, the story was a mess and - since myself and most of the people I had played with for YEARS with were also all active in RP - it was the 'nail in the coffin' for a large part of them. And has made it so most of us don't want to bother to come back.

    Nevermind the fact that none of the rest of the content in the game is up near to the same standard they created at launch - simply because they won't spend the money now on the voice acting, writing quality, etc. that they spent pre-launch.

    Update the game more regularly. I don't buy the bullshit of not having enough money - yea, they do. They just don't want to spend it where it matters - developing more content. A single planet to grind out another 5 or 10 levels in is not enough content every couple of years - and a few raids/dungeons in between don't cover it. A "new content patch" that consists of 5 rotating daily quests - is not content. This game is more than profitable - too bad they don't want to put it back into the actual game content. Problem plaguing a lot of online services these days :/.

    Don't have as MANY of the paywalls to regular play vs. monthly sub. The paywall to access your in game cash, hide helmet, emotes etc. should really be part of the 'free' base game and would encourage many of us former subbers to come back at least to visit and play on occasion if these things weren't locked behind a sub. I don't mind exp. or leveling limitations - bank or guild ship acesss etc. being limited. But the in game currency limits shouldn't be so low, (esp. if you're wanting people who use to sub and have tons of credits to want to come back) given as how the in game market is extremely built around long-term players (and the prices reflect that).

    The first two are the biggest two - never would have stopped paying 1-2 years ago and stopped playing if the above had not been the reality. And the third is why I've not bothered to 'jump back in' as a sub after the occasions when I actually had a reason/motivation to revisit the game and look at subbing again.

    Wish they'd redo it all and release a new Star Wars MMO - but clearly they aren't giving up on this pony yet.
    I don't think starting over with a new mmo would help anything, but i do agree that they should just make more content and bigger expansions.
    Once the ability delay bug was fixed, this has been the real problem with the game since day 1. The Bioware content development pace is just really slow. The content itself tends to be sweet, but short and far between.

    With that said, the game is currently in a better place. They are working on technical improvements and they have been releasing good content at a slow pace with their modest team.
    I am definitly pleased with the game if not for the fact i want more of it.

    Btw, i imagine that by voice acting not being there you mean the alliance alerts? I believe those are mostly done and new story content is completely voiced these says. Except some daily quests, cause people just spacebar those if they are.

    I actually recommend everyone play the story if you are KOTOR fans. The story that began with that game finally comes to a decisive end in an epic boss battle that calls back to the what? 15 years of the series? It was definitly a turning point for the storytelling in the game. Shall we say... it was the endwalker of the SWTOR story.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-10-25 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    We all recall the pre launch time when people where very clear: Give us WoW in space.

    I don't know what that meant to you, but to me it was Classic WoW in a Star Wars Universe.

    Right out of the gate (launch) it was clear that is not what BioWare was going to give us. The game engine couldn't handle Ilum (been a while if I misspelled it) and mass PvP had to be scraped. The world was closer to a BioWare map than an open world feeling you get from WoW. BioWare games have walls/mountains to the left and right and funnel the player through the map, and SWG had that to some degree. I always felt like a mouse in a maze when playing SWG.

    Voice over was way too thick and made alt life miserable .. Party groups seemed to always have that one guy who wants to listen to the voice over for the hundredth time. Again, that is not WoW in space.

    If another Star Wars is to be attempted, please keep it simple and make it feel like a massive universe .. Don't reinvent the wheel and just give us WoW Classic in space.

    /thx
    That is what we had with Star Wars Galaxies even before WoW. AND it is what I left for WoW when I got the beta invite way back when.

  13. #33
    I recall when this was first releasing, the hype was insane. Such a waste of about the very best IP you could possibly have dropped in your lap. The game was fascinating when released for a while, but its woeful and ugly shortcomings became quickly apparent.

  14. #34
    world of starcraft when??



    cmon blizzard. u could fix alot of wows problems with a brand new mmo, lets go

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by lolmmofuture View Post
    world of starcraft when??



    cmon blizzard. u could fix alot of wows problems with a brand new mmo, lets go
    Why? You people want new mmo's which you drop after a month. I don't want that. I don't want to start over. Mmo's are evolving games. WoW today is not WoW from 10 years ago. SWTOR today is a different game from launch swtor. Same with FF.
    Generally the newer versions are better games and they do improve to the point where making one from scratch will never live to the original.
    They would have to compete with games that have had a decade of development on them. It's just not worth it to invest on that.

    There is nothing that the mmo's we have now can't achieve. We don't need a new launch and another decade to reach the point where there is enough features and content to be comparable. Literally just another mmo that will disappoint for the pile.

  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    What killed swtor was how they fucked their playerbase in onyl the first month.

    they out of no where decided they would invite people in waves, not all at once, and it was not "first person to purchase gets in first" it was "we will invite people at random!" i got in day 1, after pre-ordring only a month before. one of my irl friends didnt get in till day 3.
    I have literally never heard of this talked about ever. Me and about 30 People from my WoW guild rolled Swtor day 1 and never even had something close to a wave of invites.

    As to the Topic question. I literally only just cancelled my Swtor Sub for the first time in Years Yesterday. Mostly because I strongly dislike the ability pruning they are doing in the next Patch/Expac. My Class has been butchered and basically had most of our Utility and Defense taken from us and told to choose from 1 or 2 of them.

  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I have literally never heard of this talked about ever. Me and about 30 People from my WoW guild rolled Swtor day 1 and never even had something close to a wave of invites.

    As to the Topic question. I literally only just cancelled my Swtor Sub for the first time in Years Yesterday. Mostly because I strongly dislike the ability pruning they are doing in the next Patch/Expac. My Class has been butchered and basically had most of our Utility and Defense taken from us and told to choose from 1 or 2 of them.
    https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=156470

    yeaaaaaaah

  18. #38
    that was early access, not release so if they started day 1 (aka release) this doesn't apply for them.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Not necessarily defending those actions, but official launch date was Dec 20th, so that's "Day 1."

    Early access began on Dec 13th, 1 week earlier and yes, they did send waves of invites during that time frame. But that's early access, not launch.

    Not sure how much difference that makes, but wanted to put the facts out there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_W...e_Old_Republic

    Specifically the Development section.

  20. #40
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    That game has some fatal flaws namely in the pace they develop new and refreshing content and class design for it. Its almost completely stale since like 2013/2014 now.

    The engine and server infrastructure is also wholly insufficient to run the game like the mmo its supposed to be.
    Desyncronization and rubberbanding are prevalent almost every instance you play


    Maybe, if the game didn't run so terribly with bigger player counts and had (far) more frequent content patches, it would be more popular

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