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  1. #1
    Blademaster genegerbread's Avatar
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    What Do You Want From End-Game Zones?

    Whether it be base end-game zones like Suramar or patch zones like the Isle of Thunder, the Timeless Isle or Mechagon, what are things that you look for or want to see in WoW’s end-game zones going forward?

    If they could find a balance between the crafting mechanics of Mechagon and a zone like that with flying and a zone with a ton to do like Suramar (without the initial time-gating), I feel like that’d be pretty cool.

    What are your ideas?

  2. #2
    Basically the player should feel like they're in the movie Predators.

    No flying, no mounts, increased threat and getting dropped in a random location on entry. There are locations of safety, but players will have to traverse the dangerous terrain themselves and survive before they get there.

    The Maw had the right idea, Blizzard just didn't commit to it fully and it ended up being lame.

    I loved the Mechagon as well but just like Nazjatar it felt like a themepark. Both zones would've been better run as parallel content to everything else. They're not what end-game zones should be about.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Pakheth's Avatar
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    I always liked the concept of chests like the ones we got on the Timeless Isle and Mechagon. I also enjoyed the treasure finding stones from Nazjatar.

    Small events are also fun, be it puzzles you can do on your own or stuff that requires 2-3 people.
    Boss events are also fun but only if they are player controlled and not just super random(like the Tanaan bosses -_- ) Summoning the ghost ship on Timeless Isle was fun in that regard since you needed an item that dropped elsewhere but the ship wasn't soloable so it was preferred to let everyone know.

    Exploration and finding things have always been one of my favourite things to do in-game so more of that is always something that makes me come back. Suramar was fun in that regard that the mana thingies spawned inside houses so you had to explore every open door to see if they had an item ready to loot.

    And most of all, don't make the zone too big or hard to traverse. Tanaan and Nazjatar were too big and a nightmare to traverse, Tanaan even after adding flying. Suramar was big but fairly easy to traverse with gliders and roof top running. Mechagon and Timeless Isle felt just about right.

  4. #4
    Timeless Isle was perfect.

  5. #5
    Plenty of stuff do discover, and I mean not just items and rares, I mean places, paths, and obviously secrets.
    Plenty of story and lore that is there to be found if you look for it. WoW needs to spend way more time with the character it's telling stories about.
    Account wide unlocks, because I'm really tired of doing the banale and boring shit a gain and again with every character. Like having to free the damn primus time and time again to unlock the necrolord dailies.. just go fuck yourself blizzard.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    And most of all, don't make the zone too big or hard to traverse. Tanaan and Nazjatar were too big and a nightmare to traverse, Tanaan even after adding flying. Suramar was big but fairly easy to traverse with gliders and roof top running. Mechagon and Timeless Isle felt just about right.
    I can't say for sure but it seems the Mechagon and Nazjatar aren't that different in surface size. It's just that Nazjatar is extremely dense and there's barely any space in between the areas populated by mobs, making everything feel hectic and stressful.

  7. #7
    I think that content wise, the Maw and Korthia are actually pretty decent. The gameplay loop of events, rares and treasures is one of the best iterations of that design. The issue with those zones, especially the Maw, is that the terrain is obnoxious to travel around. Mechagon was a lot more enjoyable in that regard, but maybe it was because of the jetpack feature.

    Overall, my main complain about all those endgame zones is that it often feel so disconnected from the rest of the expansion. Not always lore/story-wise but it's always some remote zone/island we go to. It's mostly a sandbox we go to, do stuff, than HS back. I wish all this type of endgame content was actually all over the leveling zones as well. These zones only have world quests and some random treasures here and there, some rares that are impossible to trigger or solo because no one is around the zone. I get the logic of having the maximum of players doing the most recent content all together, but endgame content would work a lot better if it was everywhere. And if it's still in one separate zone, why is it so barren all the time? The player hub is always some random camp, there is almost never any actual serious questline to the extent of leveling zones, with a campaign and side quests.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    And most of all, don't make the zone too big or hard to traverse. Tanaan and Nazjatar were too big and a nightmare to traverse, Tanaan even after adding flying. Suramar was big but fairly easy to traverse with gliders and roof top running. Mechagon and Timeless Isle felt just about right.
    I disagree, these zones, especially Korthia now, feel so claustrophic. But I admit, with the cheap and dull rare-rushing gameplay smaller zones are beneficial, but that is mostly because the rare rushing itself is flawed imho.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  9. #9
    If the content of Nazjatar and Mechagon had been combined into a single zone, it probably would have been pretty close to perfect. Isle of Thunder was alright, more visually and atmospherically impressive than anything good content wise. TI was trash in nearly every aspect, avoidable high mob damage was probably the only redeeming feature. Suramar was neat enough but its appeal was built into the type of story it told and that's not something that can be copy pasted very easily.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    If the content of Nazjatar and Mechagon had been combined into a single zone, it probably would have been pretty close to perfect.
    Literally Mechagon on the brink of the hole in the sea of Nazjatar. With Naga invading the island and the mechagnomes running sea expeditions through the runs. That would've been epic.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I disagree, these zones, especially Korthia now, feel so claustrophic. But I admit, with the cheap and dull rare-rushing gameplay smaller zones are beneficial, but that is mostly because the rare rushing itself is flawed imho.
    I agree, let the players breathe a little (like mechagon), and actually put some visual effort in (like surumar, not Koritha which is a low effort joke)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Timeless Isle was perfect.
    No, it was shit. This is when all the evil begun.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by genegerbread View Post
    Whether it be base end-game zones like Suramar or patch zones like the Isle of Thunder, the Timeless Isle or Mechagon, what are things that you look for or want to see in WoW’s end-game zones going forward?

    If they could find a balance between the crafting mechanics of Mechagon and a zone like that with flying and a zone with a ton to do like Suramar (without the initial time-gating), I feel like that’d be pretty cool.

    What are your ideas?
    Another Blizzard-planted thread? I want something relaxing. In short - something similar to Tanaan Jungle.
    1) NOT SANDBOX (according to Blizzards' definition) - sandbox content is about freedom of choice, how you approach it, but it's not about Blizzards' sandbox content, you don't have quests, that tell you what to do, but everything else is extremely restricted and on-a-rails in Wow (for example no-flying doesn't allow you to take any other route, except predefined one).
    2) Flying - overall it makes content more casual-friendly and smooths all problems, like no pointless navigation puzzles, unnecessary aggro, travel time, lack of mobs/items (ability to find them fast), get away from overcrowded spot, bypass overtuned mobs, etc.
    3) Not too small/claustrophobic - it should fit enough players/mobs/items not to cause "rush hour traffic jams with roadside riders".
    4) No exceeding competition - competition is pseudo-PVP and PVP is toxic, i.e. brings negative emotions, such as anger and frustration, if our WM is off, then it's for reason, because we want to play PVE game, not PVP or pseudo-PVP toxicity-fest.
    5) No exceeding challenge, scaling or tuning problems - not all players need challenge, some want content to be fun and relaxing, content shouldn't be tuned for guys in full M+ gear from previous content, it should be tuned for newbies/alts, a little hard but doable in minimal gear, ok in medium gear, trivial in BIS gear from this location itself (not from separate content, like M+ or raids), gear from higher content should make content trivial and that's INTENDED AND BY DESIGN (guys in M+/raid gear shouldn't whine about "trivial and boring" - they should go do their M+/raids).
    6) No overcrowding - not all players can't live without sense of "public transport at rush hour"/"sitting in queue at hospital" discomfort, majority needs some "personal space" to feel comfortable.
    7) No forced group content - everything should be soloable, forced grouping causes scheduling problems (being able to play at certain time only) and kills content too fast due to activity drop, while it could still be replayable (on alts for example).
    8) No artificial play session stretching - no Oribos trips, cancer WQs with 100500 hidden objectives, exceeding grind, exceeding RNG, too few mobs/items, too low respawn rates, unskippable dialogs etc.
    9) More defined tasks/lesser RNG - some WQs are good, some are bad, you never know, which ones you will have tomorrow, cuz they're RNG, I don't like it, predefined ones, when I always knew, what I would do today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, etc, were better.
    10) No world bosses - if your servers can't handle them without extreme lags - THEN DON'T MAKE THEM.

  14. #14
    The Patient qil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Timeless Isle was perfect.
    all i remeber is "raretimer houlon" whole time at chat

    Korthia is fine, but we should have flying.
    Already they plot against us.
    Seize this moment, Varian.
    Dismantle the Horde!

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    I can't say for sure but it seems the Mechagon and Nazjatar aren't that different in surface size. It's just that Nazjatar is extremely dense and there's barely any space in between the areas populated by mobs, making everything feel hectic and stressful.
    My problem with Nazjatar was that it was very difficult to navigate due to its many levels and also stuff in the way like stone walls and pillars. Even while flying it could be a pain in the arse some times. Also as you said, waaay too many mobs at times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I disagree, these zones, especially Korthia now, feel so claustrophic. But I admit, with the cheap and dull rare-rushing gameplay smaller zones are beneficial, but that is mostly because the rare rushing itself is flawed imho.
    I liked Timeless Isle for what it was, a fun romp on a small island packed with interesting rares and stuff to do. It was fun for what it was and you can't deny it didn't offer a variety of different things to do like chests, the cave with the minigame, the slow fall minigame, the alemental village event, the super power buff weapons, the seagull taxi, the four celestial bosses, the pet tournament, Ordos, etc etc. It wasn't only rares.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Another Blizzard-planted thread? I want something relaxing. In short - something similar to Tanaan Jungle.
    My problem with Tanaan was that it didn't feel like one zone. It was more like it was a bunch of tiny zones glued together. Like the swamp part of the zone doesn't really fit the rest, and so on. Also it was a pain in the ass to navigate when you had 4 bosses that spawned randomly each day and it was next to impossible to reach them in time when they spawned, even with flying.

  16. #16
    A mix of Nazjatar and Argus would be nice, at the end of the reputation getting access to flying would be pretty good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    My problem with Tanaan was that it didn't feel like one zone. It was more like it was a bunch of tiny zones glued together. Like the swamp part of the zone doesn't really fit the rest, and so on. Also it was a pain in the ass to navigate when you had 4 bosses that spawned randomly each day and it was next to impossible to reach them in time when they spawned, even with flying.
    I don't want to say, that it was ideal. It had it own problems. Like too small Draenei zone. But at least for me it was much more like old fashioned daily quests. It was much more replayable, than, let's say, Korthia. Doing all 6 zones and completing "get 10 fel appexis" quest every day wasn't that hard and was taking around 1 hour. I also liked reward system there, when rewards were RNG, but you still had guaranteed way to buy them with time via appexis.

    P.S. Turning rares into non-soloable raid bosses in order to prevent other players from missing them - is terrible design decision. Because non-soloable rares = no content without other players around or being required to sit in 20 minutes queue.

  18. #18
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Tough question to answer because a lot of how well an endgame zone plays relies heavily on the core gameplay loop. If your spec feels janky and traversal is boring or aggrivating, it can tank a zone that would otherwise be a lot of fun; conversely if the core gameplay is fun but the zone itself is crap, you can often overlook the zone's deficiencies and look on the positives (see Timeless Isle and Argus). A compelling storyline and environment design like Argus's skyboxes can also help in that regard.

    So I suppose, I would say Suramar is the closest we've gotten to 'the best of both worlds,' but even it had its issues especially regarding density of detection mobs. There's a line between 'dangerous and fun' and 'cheap;' it's the difference between someone just spamming crouch-kicks in Street Fighter II and someone skillfully executing combos and outplaying you. In both scenarios you lose, but in one you're pissed because you got beaten with cheap, lazy design, and the other you accept your loss because they played better than you.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    A mix of Nazjatar and Argus would be nice, at the end of the reputation getting access to flying would be pretty good.
    The worst locations ever made, yeah. I guess, we need separate 200% optional "sandbox" location for such guys.

  20. #20
    I'm probably going to get hate for this but why they abandoned the timeless isle template for end game zones in beyond me. I just like having elites mobs that you can take on your own if you figure out how to dodge their attacks. with a few quest chains and PVP options, etc.

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