Did BFA ended all the hooks from Vanilla and Warcraft 3?

[Soon-TM]

I always imagined plunder isle being this island with huge pirate castle/town. Surrounded by cliffs and wild sea. With an underground dock etc etc.

Sounds like a Deadmines on steroids mixed with the pirate theme of BfA, particularly Tiragarde. Gief pl0x

[Schizoide]

I take it you missed BfA?

I suppose Zuldazar kinda applies, with its pyramids, but besides that architecture the rest was more trolls than Azteca.

[Claymore]

Honestly, I think the OP makes some solid points.

Ultimately, I think the issue is more that the game has gone on longer than it was clearly originally envisioned. And they've changed their approach to "storytelling" a number of times along the way. In the days of Vanilla, TBC, and Wrath, Blizzard's idea of "interacting with popular characters" was "kill them and take their loot". Illidan was a poor villain, not simply because he wasn't really present in TBC, but also because he was never a VILLAIN to begin with (same of Kael'thas, and Lady Vash'j by extension). Arthas definitely WAS a villain, but I think people would've preferred doing more interesting stuff with him than just "killing him" (ie. maybe once he and Ner'zhul un-merged, it would've been revealed that they were building the Scourge as a bulwark against the Burning Legion, who would've been the next threat, maybe resurrecting Deathwing towards the end of their campaign, leading to a similar "Cataclysm", etc).

If there's one thing FFXIV has gotten right -- and WoW needs to quickly learn from -- is never to WASTE characters. I never LIKED Garrosh, but he was a good character (if horribly inconsistent). Having him grow over several expansions, learning that different races have different races and different kinds of "honor", I think could've eventually lead to him being a super interesting, compelling character. I also really like Wrathion, because he's not just "a good guy" or "a bad guy".

And really, I think Blizzard HAS learned that lesson... but unfortunately, learned it far too late. They've basically already killed everybody. Sylvanas and Jaina are the only characters that existed in WC3, and I don't think anyone is super happy with either of them (honestly, Cataclysm kind of ruined Jaina, Varian was literally just "human Thrall", and Anduin wasn't remotely interesting or relatable).

I'd have ditched Varian altogether (or maybe hold his introduction until a "Dragon Isle" expansion), keep Jaina as the pacifist, and have Anduin grow up with a chip on his shoulder about losing Bolvar Fordragon, electing to become a Paladin to follow in his footsteps. Make him a LITTLE bit angsty, causing some friction between all of the Alliance leaders (and no, do NOT have them unified under a single banner, but each race remaining an independent nation), causing them to suffer losses against a smaller, but more unified Horde (make the differences between their leadership a point of contention in the story).

I honestly kind of expect a "reset" to happen to the Story, though. And really, it might not be the WORST idea in the world. Have us return from the Shadowlands a hundred, maybe even a THOUSAND years later. All of the races are decimated in "the final battle" against the Jailer and the other cosmic forces, so in that 100-1000 years, nature reclaims the world, along with the "lesser races". So the story becomes helping your race reclaim a piece of a new, untamed Azeroth.

[ohwell]

I guess I kind of wanted a story that addressed the character... kel'thuzard's story in essence is selling ones soul to the devil. Lore wise he took up necromancy to fight the horde and wasn't really aware of just what he was doing till it was to late.

I'm not saying make a epic around him but actually portraying the character properly rather then a crackling villian would of been nice.

He took up necromancy because he was curious and power hungry. That completely tracks with everything he's doing now. The Horde was defeated when he was doing his research. He saw what they had and wanted it. He claimed in the little court they held that it needed to be learned in order to counter it, but that was only half true.

[Deferionus]

I mean they literally wasted zones like the emerald dream, Argus, Nazjatar and Nyalotha for single patches, when each of them had the potential for a whole expansion...

Argus and Nazjatar especially. Argus ended up being a horribly designed experience that was the low point of Legion. I would have preferred Argus to have been the expac following Legion with Sargeras being the end boss there and the expansion being heavily focused on Titan lore which then fed into a Nazjatar expac followed by Nylotha because the old gods being the plot after the Legion's end was expected. They threw away so much potential.

[deenman]

"This video game is uninspired, but I hope the next version is good."
"That's literally the same as making excuses for being beaten by your spouse."
Absurd.

its not absurd at all,its a perfect comparison,the player has been abused and treated like shit by the game and often even the devs calling people who want the game to be improved being called ''toxic,or little shits'' etc

every expansion is worse than the last but people just keep coming back,how is it any different?

abuse isnt just physical

[Aliven]

Imagine being stuck with the janitor

You mean the glorious Killfuck Soulshitter?

[Athorha]

Shadowlands is significantly more connected to the preceding storylines in the warcraft universe than mop and anything its introduction and finalization of new character developments produced.

Its ridiculous to criticize a movie on its coherence and ability to stick to the overall plot.... before you've seen the entire thing / the length of the series. Criticize shadowlands for its systems, its gameplay, its release timing, but if you were reading [insert X book with a miraculous twist 55% in] and you were 40% in wanting to put it down... people would be smirking at you as they convince otherwise.


Maybe I'm off though and video game storytelling is the thing I dont understand, which is that as each chapter comes it needs to be 100% legibly fitting to the past rather than the future or else its unfollowable... least until the final iteration has been released and you can play through it with no surprises stacked with world buffs.

[Aliven]

Possible expansions:
- The moon (elune vs the void)
- Non-elemental planes (fear, despair, hatred, etc)
- A new continent based on Aztec/Mayan looks
- Void vs Naaru, battling in alternate universes like we saw in Draenor briefly
- Underworld, vast caverns underneath existing zones

I dont care about any of those.

[melzas]

Sure, the team that can hardly make 5 new zones is gonna remake all 20+ original zones from scratch.
And pink unicorns will fall from the sky too!

Are you willing to wait 4 years for that or what?

Cmon now... get real. Just revamping them some on Cataclysm was a huge mistake. They can't do that in a 2 year cycle.

Yes, we do need a new landmass. It just needs to not be cut up in seperate pieces.

I never said they should make 20 zones in one expansion. I'm sorry your reading comprehension is bad but that's not really my fault.

My idea is to cover 5-6 zones from EK/Kalimdor rather than make a new continent. For example Tanaris/Caverns of Time/Ungoro/Silithius/AhnQiraj/Feralas could be one expansion.

[Aliven]

Shadowlands is significantly more connected to the preceding storylines in the warcraft universe than mop and anything its introduction and finalization of new character developments produced.

Its ridiculous to criticize a movie on its coherence and ability to stick to the overall plot.... before you've seen the entire thing / the length of the series. Criticize shadowlands for its systems, its gameplay, its release timing, but if you were reading [insert X book with a miraculous twist 55% in] and you were 40% in wanting to put it down... people would be smirking at you as they convince otherwise.


Maybe I'm off though and video game storytelling is the thing I dont understand, which is that as each chapter comes it needs to be 100% legibly fitting to the past rather than the future or else its unfollowable... least until the final iteration has been released and you can play through it with no surprises stacked with world buffs.

If only the last pages of the book are interesting then why make the previous pages?

And yes, you dont understand storytelling.

You argument is basically - but wait, there is more and it is better and super duper cereal promise all will make sense!

[Swnem]

I never said they should make 20 zones in one expansion. I'm sorry your reading comprehension is bad but that's not really my fault.

My idea is to cover 5-6 zones from EK/Kalimdor rather than make a new continent. For example Tanaris/Caverns of Time/Ungoro/Silithius/AhnQiraj/Feralas could be one expansion.

Going back to EK and Kalimdor seems like the best idea. I don't mean cataclysm 2.0, but completely redesigned zones from scratch, updating them to 10.0 standards, giving them endgame purpose. Put old EK and Kalimdor accessible in caverns of time though.

No, i don't have reading comprehension problems. You maybe have problems in putting to words what you mean.

Nowhere did you say it would only be 5 zones until now. You just gave an example of some zones to modify. When you say zones of kalimdor and EK you are talking about all. If you want to only have a few, you need to specify that. Which now you did.

The suggestion isn't so bad now that you changed it. But, i find it more exciting to go to the other side of azeroth and see completely original zones where the devs can show some environments we have not seen before. They will have complete freedom to make up what they would like.

[Athorha]

If only the last pages of the book are interesting then why make the previous pages?

And yes, you dont understand storytelling.

You argument is basically - but wait, there is more and it is better and super duper cereal promise all will make sense!

What you figure to be interesting is purely subjective. Ironically now you're implying interest derives from finalization rather than realization?

[Magnagarde]

BfA was a guillotine execution of Warcraft. By that I mean to point out that they've written themselves into a corner, making a senseful resolution of everything extremely improbable. BfA excoriated the fun and fanship behind racial and faction allegiances.

The idea of faction conflict and a promise of "moral greyness" in said conflict sounded amazing. The heroes of Azeroth struck a devastating blow to Sargeras and now the various sides that call Azeroth their home set their sights on eachother. The exploration of an Alliance heavy such as Kul Tiras, the introduction of the Zandalari, the amazing Warbringer videos for Jaina... everything was looking great. Even the burning of Teldrassil made sense, untill they showed the Warbringer cinematic for Sylvanas. There was absolutely no reason to give Sylvanas an ulterior motive, other than simply wanting to conquer the adversary and both sides should've been fully committed to it throughout the expansion. They instead dropped the ball midway through the expansion, set the sights of the naga and N'zoth, only to never properly resolve the faction conflict.

The only thing they still haven't done is to mess with the story of Arthas and I hope they don't dwell into that territory. It is one of the few "Warcraft 3 hooks" they haven't pulled and the storytelling so far doesn't warrant confidence to ever try doing so.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Let's see....there's:

- Nerubian Underworld spanning the entire continent of Northrend (A'qir, Nerubians, Dark Trolls/Shadowtooth Tribe, etc.)

- The Magnetic Chasm below the Molten Eternium Sea (Blingtron's war against iR-T0)

- The Dragon Isles

- O'grila (Cut content homeworld of the Ogres on Draenor)

- The Army of the Light (maybe we all board the Exodar and meet the rest of the Army up in space)

- Uldaman, Bael Modan, Terramok, and other Earthen complexes (Uldaman has only been partially excavated, and who knows what other complexes lie buried underground waiting to be found)

- Elune or physically going to Azeroth's Moon

- The wound caused by Sargeras' sword

- Time Travel shenanigans to the Black Empire or Reign of Chaos

[melzas]

No, i don't have reading comprehension problems. You maybe have problems in putting to words what you mean.

Nowhere did you say it would only be 5 zones until now. You just gave an example of some zones to modify. When you say zones of kalimdor and EK you are talking about all. If you want to only have a few, you need to specify that. Which now you did.

The suggestion isn't so bad now that you changed it. But, i find it more exciting to go to the other side of azeroth and see completely original zones where the devs can show some environments we have not seen before. They will have complete freedom to make up what they would like.

And nowhere did I say ALL zones in the bolded text you qouted so yeah, your reading comprehension is lacking.

[Hitei]

its not absurd at all,its a perfect comparison,the player has been abused and treated like shit by the game and often even the devs calling people who want the game to be improved being called ''toxic,or little shits'' etc

every expansion is worse than the last but people just keep coming back,how is it any different?

abuse isnt just physical

No, but abuse is actual abuse, not a fucking video game being boring, unrewarding, or having systems you don't find enjoyable.

[Alanar]

Sounds like a Deadmines on steroids mixed with the pirate theme of BfA, particularly Tiragarde. Gief pl0x

Yes, but then a bit more gloomy, rough and mysterious.

Some badass pirate duke as their leader

[Luck4]

this is literaly battered spouse syndrome

Pretty much, I'm not even playing Shadowlands, but WoW keeps coming back to mind, and I miss the good days.

The fact that I invested so much time in the game also doesn't help.

I think the concept of wow needs to have an old lore hook is pretty dangerous. While MOP had issues it is an example of a pretty successful new storyline. The issue is these one and done expansions aren't helping the overall story. Although that being said if they drag anything from SL into other expansions people are going to riot.

I think that's half true because despite the overall bad reaction when announced, the Pandaren as a race and Chen Stormstout as a major character was expected to appear at some point, and we also got some Azerothian references there that tied Pandaria pretty well to the rest of the world, like:

The burdens of Chao-Hao series explaining the events before the Sundering;

The Sha being actually Y'shaarj an Old God;

The Mantid being another insectoid race being used by an Old God, pretty much like the Qiraji;

The Mogu and the Zandalari relationship, giving more depth to both a new race (Mogu) and an old established race (Zandalari Trolls);

The Yangol being another Tauren cousin like the Taunka and the Highmountain;

All things considered, I think Pandaria was something that found its place on Azeroth without needing much further explanation, unlike WOD and now Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems like they're pretty much done with down to earth Azeroth stories since the only thing they've been setting up is new cosmic shit that's mostly disconnected from any previous stories we're familiar with.

I have the feeling that they rushed the stories surrounding Argus, Azshara, and N'zoth because they wanted to be able to create new stories that are easier to implement than expanding the established lore. It really feels like the borrowed power system, since they can create literally any story, zone, and rules for these cosmic realms bubbles without needing further explanation if it makes sense or not, unlike WOD for instance, since once we're back to Azeroth nothing that happened in said realms change the great scheme of things on the game's reality.

To make it easier to understand what I write above, think about every expansion about a cosmic force being something like a new universe altogether, where everything we learned on previous expansions doesn't apply to this new realm.

Don't forget undermine or what's left of it

Yeah, I forgot about Undermine and the Nerubian underworld zone. Though I think Undermine, Nerubians home, Plunder Isle, and Tel'abim fall more in line with the kind of stuff that we would expect to become patch zones, dungeons, or raids.

[Beefhammer]

Mists of Pandaria = Pandaria - this is when I thought they were running out of ideas, surely Pandaren was a thing back in Warcraft 3, but I never expected to see a full expansion all about them.

So by your logic, by coming up with new ideas means they are running out of ideas?