Page 36 of 36 FirstFirst ...
26
34
35
36
  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Soon is relative.

    Just like asking when the 4th new class would be added to the game. What time frame do you see? Honest question.
    Can't tell. I don't know what their plans are.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Can't tell. I don't know what their plans are.
    So you have to know what their plans are in order to know when the 4th class would be added? No predictions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Because we know how Starfall works in game. It is a continuous rain of stars. None of the Priest abilities do that.
    Sure they do. It's a visual. You make them rain stars. It's literally that simple, you just attach the mechanic to it.

    There is, because certain encounters are still affected by damage type (like Viscidus) and there are the Resistance racials of races.
    Again, why does this matter? It's still a massive dps loss either way. It's still exactly the same things that would exist for any caster using a wand anyway. It doesn't actually change anything.

    So a bunch of NPC abilities from a cinematic, stuff from another game, and stuff I've already discussed? Once again, this is a you thing where you believe that the class needs to have these things to be viable. It's a fine opinion to have, but is still just an opinion. If this is all the stuff you want in a class, that's fine. But that's subjective. It's not an objective fact that any potential class needs to have a bunch of NPC abilities (which we know donb't always get translated to actual gameplay) and stuff from a separate game.

    You expiration date, not the game's.
    So it makes sense that the expectation is we should be willing to wait 30 years to have something be playable? For real?

  4. #704
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    17,486
    Some really great stuff for class skins on keyboardturn’s Twitter to check out for pallys‘s for most races.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/keyboardt...06706718052352

    Just a couple of the pictures.





    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; Yesterday at 02:23 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #705
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,121
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Soon is relative.

    Just like asking when the 4th new class would be added to the game. What time frame do you see? Honest question.
    Either the upcoming expansion or the one after that.

    I don't see Blizzard going long without a new class addition. If they don't add one in the next expansion, we're looking at almost a decade since Demon Hunters were introduced in Legion, and that would be rather extreme.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Some really great stuff for class skins on keyboardturn’s Twitter to check out for pallys‘s for most races.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/keyboardt...06706718052352

    Just a couple of the pictures.
    Yeah, when I think of class skins, this is what I imagine. That makes a great deal more sense.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Either the upcoming expansion or the one after that.
    Context is probably lost here, but I was referring to what would be the 7th New class, since Username said he still sees enough room for 4 more new classes. I was asking when he predicts the final New class would be added to the game, not including the 3 Expansion classes we already have.
    Last edited by Triceron; Yesterday at 04:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So you have to know what their plans are in order to know when the 4th class would be added? No predictions?
    I barely know when their next class would be added. They broke their formula with Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Sure they do. It's a visual. You make them rain stars. It's literally that simple, you just attach the mechanic to it.
    No, they don't. Priest AoEs are mostly one-time hits.

    Again, why does this matter? It's still a massive dps loss either way. It's still exactly the same things that would exist for any caster using a wand anyway. It doesn't actually change anything.
    It does for a PotM. Because it is associated with Lunar spells, not Frost, Shadow and Nature.

    So a bunch of NPC abilities from a cinematic, stuff from another game, and stuff I've already discussed? Once again, this is a you thing where you believe that the class needs to have these things to be viable. It's a fine opinion to have, but is still just an opinion. If this is all the stuff you want in a class, that's fine. But that's subjective. It's not an objective fact that any potential class needs to have a bunch of NPC abilities (which we know donb't always get translated to actual gameplay) and stuff from a separate game.
    Not necessarily. But, if you can't account for them in the first place, then it is not matching.

    To be honest, PotM are hard to determine, since we don't know whether it would be a Healer, Ranged or Melee.

    So it makes sense that the expectation is we should be willing to wait 30 years to have something be playable? For real?
    No, but Blizzard doesn't take specifically you, me and others into consideration when thinking about wait times. They have new, young fresh gamers as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Some really great stuff for class skins on keyboardturn’s Twitter to check out for pallys‘s for most races.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/keyboardt...06706718052352

    Just a couple of the pictures.





    Looks dope as hell, but not always accurate.
    For some reason, they made Night Warriors into spellcasters and Prot Warriors.
    They made Tidesages into pirates.
    They made Silver Hand Void elves when it's contradictory to their very nature.
    Mechagnomes barely understand the Light, as attested by Prince Erazmin.
    Last edited by username993720; Yesterday at 11:20 AM.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, they don't. Priest AoEs are mostly one-time hits.
    And that doesn't matter. The animation is still a bunch of stars. Falling. It still conveys the aesthetic of Starfall. The exact effect, like many abilities translated from the RTS to WoW, can be different.

    It does for a PotM. Because it is associated with Lunar spells, not Frost, Shadow and Nature.
    Why does it matter? All of their spells would be Lunar. Priests don't use Fire or Frost, but can still use those wands. The damage type of a wand is completely irrelevant since the whole kit is themed anyway.

    Not necessarily. But, if you can't account for them in the first place, then it is not matching.
    But it's only your opinion that they need to be matching at all. We may as well say that Priests aren't 'matching' since Anduin wears plate and wields a sword while players cannot, or Mages aren't 'matching' since Jaina can summon a giant magic attack boat and players cannot.

    To be honest, PotM are hard to determine, since we don't know whether it would be a Healer, Ranged or Melee.
    < gestures vaguely at WC3 > I mean, I think we have a pretty good guess here.

    No, but Blizzard doesn't take specifically you, me and others into consideration when thinking about wait times. They have new, young fresh gamers as well.
    You don't think that Blizzard takes into account people that have been playing their game for 15+ years? You don't think they want us to continue playing for as long as possible? The lifecycle of WoW already goes beyond what our understanding of what a game's lifecycle could be. How many people really want to wait another 15+ years just to get something they want to play?

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    And that doesn't matter. The animation is still a bunch of stars. Falling. It still conveys the aesthetic of Starfall. The exact effect, like many abilities translated from the RTS to WoW, can be different.
    Again, it's already in the game.
    Secondly, the whole point of it is damaging continuously.

    Why does it matter? All of their spells would be Lunar. Priests don't use Fire or Frost, but can still use those wands. The damage type of a wand is completely irrelevant since the whole kit is themed anyway.
    But, the damage itself would still be another type of magic?

    But it's only your opinion that they need to be matching at all. We may as well say that Priests aren't 'matching' since Anduin wears plate and wields a sword while players cannot, or Mages aren't 'matching' since Jaina can summon a giant magic attack boat and players cannot.
    Anduin is only cosmetic. He's still a Priest through and through.
    Jaina's a frost mage.
    I'm not saying we would have everything. Heck, i don't know if Starfall would be taken from Druids (since Demon Hunters didn't take Evasion from Rogues and Immolate from Warlocks). But, i am pretty sure a Priest cannot do what a Night Warrior or PotM can. It's just not the archetype. Melee fighting with glaives would be more similar to a Demon Hunter and ranged shooting would be more similar to a Hunter. The Priest can only account for the healing side of the character. Basically, we're looking at a Marksmanship Hunter, Healing Priest, Balance Druid and Demon Hunter here.

    < gestures vaguely at WC3 > I mean, I think we have a pretty good guess here.
    It has been updated since then. In HotS, Tyrande is a healer. In WoW, she is now a melee fighter.

    You don't think that Blizzard takes into account people that have been playing their game for 15+ years? You don't think they want us to continue playing for as long as possible? The lifecycle of WoW already goes beyond what our understanding of what a game's lifecycle could be. How many people really want to wait another 15+ years just to get something they want to play?
    They do. But, it's not like we have veteran benefits or something.
    Last edited by username993720; Yesterday at 02:38 PM.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Again, it's already in the game.
    Secondly, the whole point of it is damaging continuously.
    And stuff in game changes on a fairly regular basis. If they don't want to take an ability from Balance Druids, they would likely just rename it anyway. Shards of Elune or something.

    But, the damage itself would still be another type of magic?
    For the autoshot. Which is a dps loss anyway and only for flavour. And is something that run of the mill Priests deal with anyway (not using fire or frost, for example). Why is it an issue for PotM and not for Priests? Or Warlocks?

    Anduin is only cosmetic. He's still a Priest through and through.
    Jaina's a frost mage.
    And yet if I play a Priest I can't wear plate, wield a sword, or do kickass melee attacks. Or if I play a Frost Mage I can't summon a giant magic attack boat. NPCs can do tons of things that we as players cannot do.

    I'm not saying we would have everything. Heck, i don't know if Starfall would be taken from Druids (since Demon Hunters didn't take Evasion from Rogues and Immolate from Warlocks). But, i am pretty sure a Priest cannot do what a Night Warrior or PotM can. It's just not the archetype. Melee fighting with glaives would be more similar to a Demon Hunter and ranged shooting would be more similar to a Hunter. The Priest can only account for the healing side of the character. Basically, we're looking at a Marksmanship Hunter, Healing Priest, Balance Druid and Demon Hunter here.
    Except there's no reason to think that such a class needs to fight in melee or use glaives. Nor is class design usually accomplished by grabbing a bunch of stuff from existing classes and mashing them together and saying "hey look, a new class!". And any time an ability was taken from one class and given to another, there was an uproar. I can only imagine the reaction if were done to 4 classes simultaneously.

    It has been updated since then. In HotS, Tyrande is a healer. In WoW, she is now a melee fighter.
    And again, NPCs can do things players cannot, and HotS isn't WoW or even Warcraft. We have a unit to base a PotM class on from WC3.

    They do. But, it's not like we have veteran benefits or something.
    No, but we have a voice and can speak with our wallets. And having to wait 30 years to have concepts become playable when they could implement a mechanic to allow for it to happen much, much faster is shitty development.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I barely know when their next class would be added. They broke their formula with Shadowlands.
    Right, so no one knows when we'd get 4 more new classes. It could be literally decades later.

    And in the meantime, class skins could provide customizations that allow better roleplay for those classes without having to fit any New Class formula. It doesn't even have to be mutually exclusive to a new class.

    You could have a class skin of Dark Ranger, while still having a Dark Ranger class be made years later. No different from Dwarves having Dark Iron options in Cataclysm, while having an actual Dark Iron race in BFA. I'd even say the Sylvanas weapons are in the right direction, and class skins would just be formally adapting them as permanent additions rather than borrowed power. Down the line, they could still make a formal Dark Ranger class if they want.

    The point of class skins is allowing us to (Role)play as a class that we have no representation for in game right now.
    Last edited by Triceron; Yesterday at 05:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    And stuff in game changes on a fairly regular basis. If they don't want to take an ability from Balance Druids, they would likely just rename it anyway. Shards of Elune or something.
    Even Starshards, the Night elf Priest racial ability, was a continuous rain of stars:

    Starshards
    30 yd range
    30 sec cooldown
    Instant
    Rains starshards down on the enemy target's head, causing X Arcane damage over 15 sec.

    For the autoshot. Which is a dps loss anyway and only for flavour. And is something that run of the mill Priests deal with anyway (not using fire or frost, for example). Why is it an issue for PotM and not for Priests? Or Warlocks?
    Then, i guess PotM is a multi-school magic shooter. Nice addition.

    And yet if I play a Priest I can't wear plate, wield a sword, or do kickass melee attacks. Or if I play a Frost Mage I can't summon a giant magic attack boat. NPCs can do tons of things that we as players cannot do.
    These grandiose things aren't important. I'm not telling you to fly into the air like a missile, like Tyrande did. I'm talking about standard things.

    Except there's no reason to think that such a class needs to fight in melee or use glaives. Nor is class design usually accomplished by grabbing a bunch of stuff from existing classes and mashing them together and saying "hey look, a new class!". And any time an ability was taken from one class and given to another, there was an uproar. I can only imagine the reaction if were done to 4 classes simultaneously.
    Really? well, i guess Blizzard wasted their time introducing the Night Warrior.

    Well, the Demon Hunter kinda did so. Metamorphosis was taken from the Warlock, Blur is the Demon Hunter's version of a Rogue's evasion and Mana Rift is the version of a Priest's Mana Burn. Thing is, they found out how to account for some of these things without taking it from other classes. Like Immolate Aura not removing the Warlock's immolate.

    And again, NPCs can do things players cannot, and HotS isn't WoW or even Warcraft. We have a unit to base a PotM class on from WC3.
    WC3 is outdated. HotS and WoW are more up-to-date in terms of depiction.

    No, but we have a voice and can speak with our wallets. And having to wait 30 years to have concepts become playable when they could implement a mechanic to allow for it to happen much, much faster is shitty development.
    Half-assing them through it would be shitty too.
    I'm not saying don't implement it. Just don't include everything under it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right, so no one knows when we'd get 4 more new classes. It could be literally decades later.

    And in the meantime, class skins could provide customizations that allow better roleplay for those classes without having to fit any New Class formula. It doesn't even have to be mutually exclusive to a new class.

    You could have a class skin of Dark Ranger, while still having a Dark Ranger class be made years later. No different from Dwarves having Dark Iron options in Cataclysm, while having an actual Dark Iron race in BFA. I'd even say the Sylvanas weapons are in the right direction, and class skins would just be formally adapting them as permanent additions rather than borrowed power. Down the line, they could still make a formal Dark Ranger class if they want.

    The point of class skins is allowing us to (Role)play as a class that we have no representation for in game right now.
    I think we have reached an agreement.
    As long as they keep them as temporary fixes, like they did with Demon Hunter gameplay in the Warlock until Legion, i approve.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Even Starshards, the Night elf Priest racial ability, was a continuous rain of stars:

    Starshards
    30 yd range
    30 sec cooldown
    Instant
    Rains starshards down on the enemy target's head, causing X Arcane damage over 15 sec.
    Cool. And now it would look exactly like that and function slightly differently.

    Then, i guess PotM is a multi-school magic shooter. Nice addition.
    Okay, that cannot honestly be your takeaway here.

    These grandiose things aren't important. I'm not telling you to fly into the air like a missile, like Tyrande did. I'm talking about standard things.
    So, you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not important when it comes to achieving what a person wants to play? For you concept, it has to include all of the things you mention, but when other people say "hey that's cool, I wanna play that", it's not important?

    Really? well, i guess Blizzard wasted their time introducing the Night Warrior.
    Are we talking about the PotM or a Night Warrior? Because one is something that has been established and is quantifiable, the other is something far more nebulous and difficult to pin down. One existed in WC3 and had abilities split out to other classes. The other is something that is unique and has no abilities tied to it.

    Well, the Demon Hunter kinda did so. Metamorphosis was taken from the Warlock, Blur is the Demon Hunter's version of a Rogue's evasion and Mana Rift is the version of a Priest's Mana Burn. Thing is, they found out how to account for some of these things without taking it from other classes. Like Immolate Aura not removing the Warlock's immolate.
    Rogues didn't lose Evasion and Mana Burn was out of the game long before Demon Hunters were added. This is a case of a class being based off of being an amalgam of abilities of a bunch of different classes, largely because those abilities were doled out to them when the unit was translated into WoW.

    Can it be done? Absolutely. They can totally make similar abilities to all of the above to give to a new class. But at that point how is it really any different to not having the exact abilities?

    WC3 is outdated. HotS and WoW are more up-to-date in terms of depiction.
    HotS still isn't Warcraft though, and wouldn't WC3:Reforged be considered "more up to date" anyway?

    Half-assing them through it would be shitty too.
    I'm not saying don't implement it. Just don't include everything under it.
    Nobody is suggesting to do everything under it though. The point isn't to use a Class Skin for everything and call it a day. The point is to have it as a viable tool to use if you want to fulfull concepts more quickly, easily and without affecting balance. Hell, you can implment a Class Skin and then introduce a full blown new class at a later date if it makes sense. It's a tool to give people something cool to play as so much sooner than waiting literal years.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Cool. And now it would look exactly like that and function slightly differently.
    Then, It's neither Starshards nor Starfall.

    Okay, that cannot honestly be your takeaway here.
    Apparently, it is.

    So, you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not important when it comes to achieving what a person wants to play? For you concept, it has to include all of the things you mention, but when other people say "hey that's cool, I wanna play that", it's not important?
    In the boundaries of reality.

    Are we talking about the PotM or a Night Warrior? Because one is something that has been established and is quantifiable, the other is something far more nebulous and difficult to pin down. One existed in WC3 and had abilities split out to other classes. The other is something that is unique and has no abilities tied to it.
    Night Warrior is an upgraded PotM. It uses its abilities, like shooting arrows, using an owl and calling upon lunar spells.

    Rogues didn't lose Evasion and Mana Burn was out of the game long before Demon Hunters were added. This is a case of a class being based off of being an amalgam of abilities of a bunch of different classes, largely because those abilities were doled out to them when the unit was translated into WoW.

    Can it be done? Absolutely. They can totally make similar abilities to all of the above to give to a new class. But at that point how is it really any different to not having the exact abilities?
    Like how Demon Hunter got its own versions.

    HotS still isn't Warcraft though, and wouldn't WC3:Reforged be considered "more up to date" anyway?
    HotS elaborates on WC3 units.
    Warcraft 3 reforged didn't change any abilities, it just updated its visuals.

    Nobody is suggesting to do everything under it though. The point isn't to use a Class Skin for everything and call it a day. The point is to have it as a viable tool to use if you want to fulfull concepts more quickly, easily and without affecting balance. Hell, you can implment a Class Skin and then introduce a full blown new class at a later date if it makes sense. It's a tool to give people something cool to play as so much sooner than waiting literal years.
    Which, would make much more sense.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Then, It's neither Starshards nor Starfall.
    It is whatever the tooltip says it is though. Just like literally ever other ability that has changed in the game.

    Apparently, it is.
    So a class that uses moon magic to attack enemies, moon magic to heal allies, and moon magic to do literally everything it can do suddenly becomes a caster of other elements because a specific wand, despite the fact that there's no real reason for the character to ever even shoot the thing?

    In the boundaries of reality.
    Again, you are being the arbiter here. This time on what is realistic. Wielding a sword, for example, isn't a realistic thing for a Priest to do?

    Night Warrior is an upgraded PotM. It uses its abilities, like shooting arrows, using an owl and calling upon lunar spells.
    It isn't though. We just happened to have a Night Warrior who was a PotM. The two aren't coupled together. We had a singular PotM become a Night Warrior.

    It would be liking having an Accountant become a Vampire, and then expecting all Accountants to have Vampiric traits.

    Like how Demon Hunter got its own versions.
    Which all function very differently than the source material. How is it different then with the Class Skin?

    HotS elaborates on WC3 units.
    Warcraft 3 reforged didn't change any abilities, it just updated its visuals.
    How does it do that though? It's just a different game type. It's also, you know, not Warcraft.

    Which, would make much more sense.
    Class Skins aren't something to do instead of adding new classes. They are simply a tool being proposed, and then we are discussing some of the more specifics as to the 'how' a potential new class could be introduced as a Class Skin. We could easily have something like a Tinker, Necromancer and a PotM added as Class Skins, only to later be turned into entire new classes down the line. The real benefit is having a tool to allow for playable concepts in the time between.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    It is whatever the tooltip says it is though. Just like literally ever other ability that has changed in the game.
    One star? yea... i'm not buying it, and neither does the fantasy.

    So a class that uses moon magic to attack enemies, moon magic to heal allies, and moon magic to do literally everything it can do suddenly becomes a caster of other elements because a specific wand, despite the fact that there's no real reason for the character to ever even shoot the thing?
    That's what you're implying.

    Again, you are being the arbiter here. This time on what is realistic. Wielding a sword, for example, isn't a realistic thing for a Priest to do?
    It is not really an issue. Anduin's sword and plate are mainly cosmetic.

    It isn't though. We just happened to have a Night Warrior who was a PotM. The two aren't coupled together. We had a singular PotM become a Night Warrior.

    It would be liking having an Accountant become a Vampire, and then expecting all Accountants to have Vampiric traits.
    Why did you think they chose PotM? it's an Elune class.

    Which all function very differently than the source material. How is it different then with the Class Skin?
    Not really, they don't.
    Blur still provides Dodge, Immolation Aura still provides a fiery Aura, Mana Rift still burns the target's mana and Metamorphosis still turns you into a Demon.

    How does it do that though? It's just a different game type. It's also, you know, not Warcraft.
    It contains WC3 abilities and more.

    Class Skins aren't something to do instead of adding new classes. They are simply a tool being proposed, and then we are discussing some of the more specifics as to the 'how' a potential new class could be introduced as a Class Skin. We could easily have something like a Tinker, Necromancer and a PotM added as Class Skins, only to later be turned into entire new classes down the line. The real benefit is having a tool to allow for playable concepts in the time between.
    Like i said to Triceron, that's a great suggestion. a fix for the meantime, like a Warlock's Metamorphosis gameplay.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    One star? yea... i'm not buying it, and neither does the fantasy.
    Why one star? The visual can b a bunch of stars coming down.

    That's what you're implying.
    It isn't though, any more than saying that a Priest with a fire wand is a master of fire magic.

    It is not really an issue. Anduin's sword and plate are mainly cosmetic.
    Well then, using a glaive would be equally 'cosmetic'.

    Why did you think they chose PotM? it's an Elune class.
    And it could have just as easily been a Night Elf Warrior or a Hunter. Ot's not so much that it's a PotM as it is Tyrande.

    Not really, they don't.
    Blur still provides Dodge, Immolation Aura still provides a fiery Aura, Mana Rift still burns the target's mana and Metamorphosis still turns you into a Demon.
    And yet they all function differently than their source. It's nitpicking about things being different with the class skin, but then acknowledging that they could make different abilities with a new class. There is some level of hypocrisy there.

    It contains WC3 abilities and more.
    It also contains a bunch of non Warcraft stuff and is a completely different game type. Look to it for inspiration, sure, but by no means should we be beholden to it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •