Class Skins would add many new classes and be a major draw for a new expansion

[Ielenia]

Either case, I'm not going to play WoW with them constantly gutting classes and specs of what made them unique.

Goodbye?

Also, what exactly was "unique" about the metamorphosis demonology warlock, considering shamans could also shapeshift and get empowered abilities in shapeshift form?

That ambiguity somehow make you feel better about your life?

Personal attacks now? I never mentioned how I "feel" about those changes. I simply laid down hard facts.

What you're arguing is semantics and just plain dumb.

If you think it's "semantics", then you don't know what the word actually means and you're using it as a buzzword to try to dismiss my original argument.

[Triceron]

So, a PotM, or a Night Warrior, would have a bow on its back without any use?
That would be like Death Knights with cosmetic-only Runeblades or Demon Hunters with cosmetic-only Warglaives.

Whats the difference?

You can already draw that comparison between a Mage that only has their staff on their back without any use, and that's because Blizzard has not implemented any Weapons-based spellcasting animations for ANY Healer or Spellcaster spec in the game. This includes Druids, Monks, Paladins and Shamans literally casting spells with their weapons sheathed. A direct comparison to DK's or DH's is absolutely arbitrary, since you you can already point at Spellcasters not using their weapons while any Physical Melee or Ranged class gets to use theirs in combat.

If we're talking about a POTM skin for a Healer/Spellcaster class, then what is the problem here? Auto-attack for wands still exists, and it can be applied to a Bow animation attack.



If we want to get creative, then I could suggest Casters get spell animations that involve using weapons, and for the POTM Class Skin to involve more Bow animations in their offensive spellcasting. But the fact is, no spellcaster in the game has this sort of special treatment at all, so for there to be more involved Weapon-based offensive spells, I think Blizzard would have to address Casters weapons first. Until they do, I think being a Stat-stick with auto-attack (as wands exist now) is the way to compare it. That's just a limit of the system more than an intentional misappropriation of any given Class concept.

I mean, it does suck that weapons aren't being used at all for any type of spellcasting, but that's really a Blizzard issue, not a problem with Bow transmogs being applied to Wands for the sake of customization.


And if we're going to bring up Blizzard issues, then Mounted Combat is something I'd want to see them add in game in some form, beyond the Jousting quests. How awesome would it be to be a POTM that actually gets to ride a Frostsaber in combat?

[Inoculate]

Goodbye?

Also, what exactly was "unique" about the metamorphosis demonology warlock, considering shamans could also shapeshift and get empowered abilities in shapeshift form?


Personal attacks now? I never mentioned how I "feel" about those changes. I simply laid down hard facts.


If you think it's "semantics", then you don't know what the word actually means and you're using it as a buzzword to try to dismiss my original argument.

There is no arguement to be had. An ability was removed and a class was made out of that ability. The why doesn't matter. Thin skin much reporting me?

[Ielenia]

There is no arguement to be had. An ability was removed and a class was made out of that ability. The why doesn't matter.

The "why" matters if it's used as part of the argument.

Thin skin much reporting me?

Who said it was me? See, this is the whole thing about "making statements of fact without any evidence". And if you don't like getting the red card, perhaps don't attack other posters next time?

[username993720]

Again, why? Not everyone uses equipment the same way. One class fires a ton of arrows. That's their thing. Another class uses their bow differently. As a conduit for magic. A way to cast devastating spells or healing magic.

Where have you seen that?

Okay? Create the lore. Why not? Lore comes from somewhere. Void wasn't a thing. Then it was. They created that. If they want to create a dude that uses the Void in melee combat or what not, do it. Stuff gets created all the time.

So, should they also create a Murloc class, as well, if someone wanted it?

Whats the difference?

You can already draw that comparison between a Mage that only has their staff on their back without any use, and that's because Blizzard has not implemented any Weapons-based spellcasting animations for ANY Healer or Spellcaster spec in the game. This includes Druids, Monks, Paladins and Shamans literally casting spells with their weapons sheathed. A direct comparison to DK's or DH's is absolutely arbitrary, since you you can already point at Spellcasters not using their weapons while any Physical Melee or Ranged class gets to use theirs in combat.

They never could. Not that i'm against it.

If we're talking about a POTM skin for a Healer/Spellcaster class, then what is the problem here? Auto-attack for wands still exists, and it can be applied to a Bow animation attack.

How many healers actually use wands?

If we want to get creative, then I could suggest Casters get spell animations that involve using weapons, and for the POTM Class Skin to involve more Bow animations in their offensive spellcasting. But the fact is, no spellcaster in the game has this sort of special treatment at all, so for there to be more involved Weapon-based offensive spells, I think Blizzard would have to address Casters weapons first. Until they do, I think being a Stat-stick with auto-attack (as wands exist now) is the way to compare it. That's just a limit of the system more than an intentional misappropriation of any given Class concept.

Like these:

As a walking stick


As a spellcasting device

And if we're going to bring up Blizzard issues, then Mounted Combat is something I'd want to see them add in game in some form, beyond the Jousting quests. How awesome would it be to be a POTM that actually gets to ride a Frostsaber in combat?

There you go:

[pacotaco]

I thought the idea was self-explanatory? It's a melee fighter who uses void magic to empower themselves, like a paladin empower themselves through holy magic.

The riftwalkers in the Stormwind vision are a good example, I think: https://www.wowhead.com/npc=158146/f...lker#abilities

[TBCCLOL]

To be honest, the Class Skin concept is good only if it is an extra on the shop with some in the game surely.


Like dunno Hunters:

Nelf Belf Human UD can unlock Dark Ranger for MM

Orc and Mag Orc can unlock Rexxar Class/Race from War 3 TFT for SV ---- i know he is more BM but he also throw an hammer as spell...

Every Race can unlock/buy the Celestial Hunter (like Constellar skin) Skin from the Shop for 15$


etc etc


Surely not every class/race/spec will be easy to insert in this system and on the other side clearly having a Spellbreaker Skin for Belf Prot Paladin will surely kill any chance to have the Silvermoon Guard 1h + Shield xmog for any Belf or Velf Warrior

[Triceron]

How many healers actually use wands?

Just the one needed, since other healers don't really fot the POTM profile.

Like these:

Blizzard really needs to double down on providing more of the fantasy.

Even with Monks I feel like they're totally missing out on unique exotic weapon fighting styles which could easily be represented if they bothered putting the time or effort into it. Instead, all auto-attacks and strikes are unarmed, even if you use a staff or 1h weapon. Makes completely no sense, and it kills the Wushu aesthetic for me.

There you go:

Pfft, more borrowed power bullshit :P

[jellmoo]

Where have you seen that?

Warcraft 3. She flings spells from her bow.

So, should they also create a Murloc class, as well, if someone wanted it?

So we can't ever create something new, even if it ties in to the existing story?

[username993720]

Just the one needed, since other healers don't really fot the POTM profile.

You mean Priest?
When was the last time a Priest used a Wand instead of a Staff or a Dagger?

Blizzard really needs to double down on providing more of the fantasy.

Even with Monks I feel like they're totally missing out on unique exotic weapon fighting styles which could easily be represented if they bothered putting the time or effort into it. Instead, all auto-attacks and strikes are unarmed, even if you use a staff or 1h weapon. Makes completely no sense, and it kills the Wushu aesthetic for me.

True.
It kills the fantasy.

Pfft, more borrowed power bullshit :P

It did what you want, didn't it?

Warcraft 3. She flings spells from her bow.

Magical arrows, you mean.

So we can't ever create something new, even if it ties in to the existing story?

Sure you can.
But, you need more than just "i want a shadowy paladin".

[froschhure]

while i enjoy the concept of class skins and really like to see some of them, i fear it could shift away intent to design new classes at all.
So i'd say yeah class skins are fine, but not on the cost of new classes

[jellmoo]

Magical arrows, you mean.

Am I just misrepresenting, but I thought she gestured around with the bow when casting Starfall? But again, sure. Have Smite be a magical bow shot. Penance is a volley of three magic bow shots. That sort of thing. Cool visuals to solidify the theme.

Sure you can.
But, you need more than just "i want a shadowy paladin".

Why? We know the Void exists and people use it to do magic stuff. How hard is it to come to the conclusion that somebody could mix Void magic and martial prowess?

Look at it this way, one day somebody said I want cute furry fox people, and boom, Vulpera. This is actually less of a new concept than that was.

[Triceron]

You mean Priest?
When was the last time a Priest used a Wand instead of a Staff or a Dagger?

They could bring them back in tandem with Class Skins, and have it be tied as a cosmetic cross-weapon transmog with Auto-attacks intact.

We never had Druids with Claw weapons until Legion, and that all came with the Artifact system. So we have a precedent for new systems opening up new options or bringing back old ones that were rarely used, like how Survival now has a full melee spec to represent nature.

It did what you want, didn't it?

I've been pretty clear on my opinions on borrowed power customizations like Verdant Spheres or Sylvanas' bow and quiver. I'd much rather those be permanent cosmetic options than simply some neat little feature for an expansion.

I mean, Garrisons also allowed Engineers to drop turrets in the world, but I wouldn't call that satisfying Turret-based gameplay. Also kinda sucks that Garrisons took so much emphasis away from the open world; I found very little use for those open world perks since I had very little reason to actually go out there outside of elite mob/mount farming.

- - - Updated - - -

Am I just misrepresenting, but I thought she gestured around with the bow when casting Starfall? But again, sure. Have Smite be a magical bow shot. Penance is a volley of three magic bow shots. That sort of thing. Cool visuals to solidify the theme.

That's pretty much how I imagine it to work. All you need is a new spell FX visual, and you don't even need an actual bow equipped at all.

Hell Tyrande shoots Nathanos without ever being shown with a bow equipped. She had Warglaives in hand and no bow in sight. Later cinematics also showed Sylvanas firing magical arrows from her bow. In game, it uses a generic magical Spirit Bow if you don't have a bow equipped, or use your equipped Bow if you have one.

[username993720]

while i enjoy the concept of class skins and really like to see some of them, i fear it could shift away intent to design new classes at all.
So i'd say yeah class skins are fine, but not on the cost of new classes

Exactly this.

They could bring them back in tandem with Class Skins, and have it be tied as a cosmetic cross-weapon transmog with Auto-attacks intact.

Wands are more associated with Mages and Warlocks.

We never had Druids with Claw weapons until Legion, and that all came with the Artifact system. So we have a precedent for new systems opening up new options or bringing back old ones that were rarely used, like how Survival now has a full melee spec to represent nature.

Druid of the claw, even Malfurion equipped one.
Survival represents nature?

I've been pretty clear on my opinions on borrowed power customizations like Verdant Spheres or Sylvanas' bow and quiver. I'd much rather those be permanent cosmetic options than simply some neat little feature for an expansion.

I mean, Garrisons also allowed Engineers to drop turrets in the world, but I wouldn't call that satisfying Turret-based gameplay. Also kinda sucks that Garrisons took so much emphasis away from the open world; I found very little use for those open world perks since I had very little reason to actually go out there outside of elite mob/mount farming.

I didn't mean for it to be temporary.
I just let you know that it was already possible in-game in the past.

Hell Tyrande shoots Nathanos without ever being shown with a bow equipped.

Oh, so she shot it with her hand?

Am I just misrepresenting, but I thought she gestured around with the bow when casting Starfall? But again, sure. Have Smite be a magical bow shot. Penance is a volley of three magic bow shots. That sort of thing. Cool visuals to solidify the theme.

She also auto shoots.
When you describe it like that it sounds so simple and easy, but it's more than just slapping an animation on a couple of spells.

[Triceron]

Wands are more associated with Mages and Warlocks.

What makes Priests less associated with Wands? Sounds like you never played a Priest in Vanilla. Back then spirit was such an uncommon low-level stat that you had to use Wands to kill everything, as you didn't have enough mana or regen to fully kill a mob with spells alone. Roll a Priest in Classic and try soloing even in Shadow Spec, you'll see it's all about wanding shit down just to level up.

And when was the last time you saw Mages and Warlocks use Wands? About as much as you see Priests using them. There's no case to say they are more associated with X and Y but not Z when they all were capable of using them and stopped using them for exactly the same reasons.

Druid of the claw, even Malfurion equipped one.

I'm talking about the Druid class. Fist-weapons were not available to the Druid class until Legion came in with the Claws Artifact. We were limited to Staves, Hammers/Maces, Daggers.

I didn't mean for it to be temporary.
I just let you know that it was already possible in-game in the past.

Well Bows were also equippable by non-Hunters in the past, so we could apply that same to Priestess of the Moon class skin, or any class skin that uses a bow.

Oh, so she shot it with her hand?

You tell me. I don't see a bow equipped or sheathed, so where is it coming from?

My personal take? Magic, similar to Sylvanas magically summoning an arrow out of thin air rather than drawing it from her quiver.

She also auto shoots.
When you describe it like that it sounds so simple and easy, but it's more than just slapping an animation on a couple of spells.

To be honest, it's no different than pointing at a Holy Paladin and criticizing how it doesn't auto-attack in battle, or pointing at a Shadow Priest and criticizing how it doesn't use Holy magic like a traditional iconic Priest.

For that, you have other specs and gameplay modes to fulfill the fantasy. You just don't have one mode that fills it all in one go, usually class identities are split up into Specs which branch it all out. A Brewmaster is missing Storm Earth and Fire, which is found on Windwalker instead. If you want to roleplay a Mountain King, you'd have to pick and choose between Fury or Arms, and miss out on abilities or fighting styles that are exclusive to either spec. It's either you get the Dual Wielding and miss out on Avatar, or you get Avatar and miss out on Dual Wielding, you don't get both.

So when it comes to Class Skins, I think the happy medium here is treating entire Classes like specs. With a concept like Spellbreaker or Necromancer, a full Class Skin over top one class may be good enough to satisfy the Class Fantasy. For POTM, the Bow-centric gameplay is exclusive to one class, while the Healing is found on another. So why not have a Class Skin that applies to both? Treat the Classes themselves like specs you can pick between, but you'd be 'Class locked' to the type of POTM you choose to roll. You want a more Bow-centric POTM? Pick the Hunter as your Core Class. If you want to focus on support and healing? Pick Priest Core Class. The new Spell FX, Animations and Ability names can be carried across both classes, theming everything to a unified "Priestess of the Moon" class that has different types of gameplay just as if you were choosing a different spec.

Ideally, I would like a Class Skin to be able to pick and choose specs rather than be tied to any class exclusively, but I feel like that would be overly-complicating the system. Having multiple Core Class options to play the same Class Skin could work though, since we already had two Core Classes representing the Blood Mage in WoW: the Mage (Legion Artifact granting Verdant Spheres) and Warlock (Glyph of Verdant Spheres).

If the goal of a Class Skin is to fulfill a Class Fantasy while reducing balance issues by reusing existing Specs and simply changing out Spell FX, then I don't see why the Spell FX couldn't be shared amongst multiple Classes/Specs in special cases like a Blood Mage or a Priestess of the Moon, where these classes have multiple types of overlap. It simply broadens the Class Fantasy by having more gameplay options.

Ideally though, I would want Blizzard to further homogenize their Spec gameplay so that it works much more modularly in order to open it up to multiple classes. Specs should really be designed individually, where they aren't tied specifically to any Core Class gameplay, and simply bring its own brand of flavour to the group. The way I'd design it is if Classes provided the unique Buffs and basic themes, while Specs are merely the type of gameplay you'd want to adopt for that particular theme. Hybrids mostly do this already, like how a Druid has 4 specs but only 2 of them are really unique to the Druid while Guardian and Feral are mostly adaptations of Warrior and Rogue gameplay.

[kenn9530]

snip

There are too many classes and specs as it stands, WoW has no need for anymore and the gameplay is not that different between all the classes anyway so another class doesnt add anything other than less time to balance all the classes.

Players dont quit WoW because of classes, they quit from lack of gameplay options which classes do not add more of.

[jellmoo]

She also auto shoots.
When you describe it like that it sounds so simple and easy, but it's more than just slapping an animation on a couple of spells.

Because it really is that simple and easy. All a class is is a combination of mechanics + visuals/sfx. If you can use already established mechanics as a base, you can do wonders with custom visuals/sfx in order to convey the concept.

[username993720]

What makes Priests less associated with Wands? Sounds like you never played a Priest in Vanilla. Back then spirit was such an uncommon low-level stat that you had to use Wands to kill everything, as you didn't have enough mana or regen to fully kill a mob with spells alone. Roll a Priest in Classic and try soloing even in Shadow Spec, you'll see it's all about wanding shit down just to level up.

And when was the last time you saw Mages and Warlocks use Wands? About as much as you see Priests using them. There's no case to say they are more associated with X and Y but not Z when they all were capable of using them and stopped using them for exactly the same reasons.

Wands are an instrument often used by mages or warlocks in fantasy.

I'm talking about the Druid class. Fist-weapons were not available to the Druid class until Legion came in with the Claws Artifact. We were limited to Staves, Hammers/Maces, Daggers.

Not true.

Well Bows were also equippable by non-Hunters in the past, so we could apply that same to Priestess of the Moon class skin, or any class skin that uses a bow.

What does this have to do with mounted combat?

You tell me. I don't see a bow equipped or sheathed, so where is it coming from?

My personal take? Magic, similar to Sylvanas magically summoning an arrow out of thin air rather than drawing it from her quiver.

Well....
*If you know what i mean* meme.

[jellmoo]

Wands are an instrument often used by mages or warlocks in fantasy.

I mean, Priests did have Wand Spec as a thing back in the day.

[Triceron]

Wands are an instrument often used by mages or warlocks in fantasy.

Same as Priests in WoW.

What does this have to do with mounted combat?

POTM representation.

Well....
*If you know what i mean* meme.

Well, what's your take then?