Do you think Alterac's remnants and the Defias Brotherhood should join the Horde?

[draugril]

If we're speaking trade, the Thalassian elf <=> Night elf trade is already well done with Void elves and Nightborne anyway.

Warcraft at its root is Orcs vs Humans and despite how much I liked the Alteraci concept posted a few years ago, I don't see Humans ever going into the Horde.

Nightbourne doesn't really step on Night Elf toes. Void Elves were given an inch and eventually stretched it into a mile - High Elves are now functionally a neutral race. If there was a race that the Horde could import to the degree that Void Elves "borrowed" from the Blood Elves... again, I'll take Draenei.

But yeah, Humans should never have free reign to strut around Orgrimmar. The argument can be made from a lore perspective, but as you point out, it is a betrayal of the core of the franchise. If faction lines are softened, however, I wouldn't mind seeing Alteraci as an independent or "neutral" race.

[DatToffer]

Nightbourne doesn't really step on Night Elf toes. Void Elves were given an inch and eventually stretched it into a mile - High Elves are now functionally a neutral race. If there was a race that the Horde could import to the degree that Void Elves "borrowed" from the Blood Elves... again, I'll take Draenei.

It's a friend's opinion that High elves won't be truly playable in the Alliance until they get access to the Paladin class. To this day you can still deny Void Elves being High elves because they still have racial traits and class restrictions.

And if you think about it, it's the Horde that shouldn't have been able to access blue eyes customization. If I'm to be honest, the High elf community, with their miles-long thread of whining, only managed to give us an ugly compromise.

It may be true that customization-wise the VE took more out of the BE than the Nightborne took out of the Night elves. But on their basis, Nightborne are still just Night elves with a more magical twist. Not gonna complain though ! At least Nightborne are gonna have custom that makes them look more like Nightborne. While Void elves are getting custom that makes look less like Void elves.

I don't know how you envision Horde Draenei, but if you think Broken and Krokuul, I'd argue they'd be different enough both in gameplay and models to not be viewed simply as a trade. But I think we have different criteria on what makes an allied race a trade !

[draugril]

Honestly, I think the franchise's first notable lore misstep was giving the Blood Elves to the Horde and Draenei to the Alliance (if we ignoring merging Undead into the Horde and Night Elves into the Alliance). These were calculated meta-level decisions that affected the integrity of the game's world with lasting repercussions that still affect the modern game.

Add in a developer that seemingly enjoys being combative with their playerbase and likes to subvert expectations for the sole purpose of subverting expectations, and you have a recipe for a lot of disappointed longtime fans.

[DatToffer]

Honestly, I think the franchise's first notable lore misstep was giving the Blood Elves to the Horde and Draenei to the Alliance (if we ignoring merging Undead into the Horde and Night Elves into the Alliance). These were calculated meta-level decisions that affected the integrity of the game's world with lasting repercussions that still affect the modern game.

Add in a developer that seemingly enjoys being combative with their playerbase and likes to subvert expectations for the sole purpose of subverting expectations, and you have a recipe for a lot of disappointed longtime fans.

Yeah. That's true.

[Hardwing]

I'd rather have an equitable trade. Not to derail too much, but I don't think Humans would ever be a good fit for the Horde in any incarnation. Getting a Draenei variant would be much more appropriate. Of all the Alliance races, only the Draenei have the perspective that informs them of how influential the Burning Legion was on the Orcs and that they are unjustly vilified.

Funny you mention it. Alterc Humans for the Horde have an appeal to me, but me they are still to "normal" and there are so many better variants to choose out there.

Man'ari Eredar to the Horde and Lightbound Orcs to the Alliance? Both are unique and have potentially no home in their original faction, but might convince the other that they are free of the bounds(Fel/Light).

Alterac could serve as neutral nation in the continent of Lordaeron, kinda the place where spies, diplomats and traders find their home and we get more unique quests. Defias might become what they were, a thorn in Stormwind's side and a faction for Anduin to deal with besides the House of Nobles ... potentially diplomatically, as I see little reason to have them being defeated a third time.

[elbleuet]

and the forsaken are allies of convenience of the horde according to the lore but they are a playable race, the zandalari empire are also allies of the horde but they are a playable race. alterac forces as horde allies attacked alliance forces in wc2
the horde needs alterac humans to be complete

No. The forsaken are part of the Horde. Alterac humans were temporary allied with the Horde because they thought the Horde was too strong to be stopped so it was better to collaborate with them.

Alterac humans despised both the Alliance and the Horde, maybe you should check your Lore. Even nowadays they still attack the Horde.

And I'm sorry for you, but one of the few heirs to the throne, aka Isiden Perenolde was welcomed and protected by Genn himself. Not by the Horde.

[draugril]

No. The forsaken are part of the Horde. Alterac humans were temporary allied with the Horde because they thought the Horde was too strong to be stopped so it was better to collaborate with them.

Alterac humans despised both the Alliance and the Horde, maybe you should check your Lore. Even nowadays they still attack the Horde.

And I'm sorry for you, but one of the few heirs to the throne, aka Isiden Perenolde was welcomed and protected by Genn himself. Not by the Horde.

The Forsaken were originally allies of convenience (same as Blood Elves). The writers literally forgot this distinction, right about at the same time that they started writing the Horde as villains.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

No. The forsaken are part of the Horde. Alterac humans were temporary allied with the Horde because they thought the Horde was too strong to be stopped so it was better to collaborate with them.

Alterac humans despised both the Alliance and the Horde, maybe you should check your Lore. Even nowadays they still attack the Horde.

And I'm sorry for you, but one of the few heirs to the throne, aka Isiden Perenolde was welcomed and protected by Genn himself. Not by the Horde.

It was Aiden Perenolde who thought that the Horde couldn't be stopped, though ironically it was majorly because of his treachery that Capital City was assaulted and that the Alliance nearly lost the war rather than any tactical or strategic advantage that the Horde had. From what I remembered most of his men were appaled by that cowardly and self-centered decision but they followed through because it was the king's orders, though a portion of alteraci eventually turned on their cravenly king and helped Stromgarde army block the Horde reinforcements to Capital City which gave the upper hand back to the Alliance.

What happened to these Alliance-loyal alteraci is unknown but it's likely that they eventually fled to other kingdoms following the chaos following the 2nd War, the rise of the Syndicate and the arrival of the Scourge. It's possible that most of the smallfolk did so because I seriously doubt that the Syndicate which is formed of corrupt nobles and assassins and bandits can't be nice to them.

And from I remember, indeed the Syndicate members loathe the Horde and attack or enslave them, possibly because they may blame them for what happened to their country.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The Horde controls Alterac -- or at least capital city at the Ruins of Alterac - as of the Fourth War. To be honest, having lost so much land, the Horde would significantly benefit from a new stronghold and ally in the Eastern Kingdoms, out of sheer necessity if nothing else. Without Sylvanas, her Loyalists, a capital city, several of their outposts, the status of Tirisfal Glades still somewhat vague and unclear...the Forsaken have been weakened considerably. The Alliance has reclaimed Southshore in Hillsbrad, and some parts of Silverpine Forest. That, and Stromgarde belongs to them. Not to mention a very angry Genn Greymane more bent on ever to reclaim his people's homeland, further bolstering the Alliance's forces in the region.

But if the Syndicates joins, the Alliance is weakened considerably around the Hillsbrad Foothills - they have an outpost against neighboring Stromgarde and the Wildhammers, a way to rebalance their territorial losses.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rebuilding_Alterac



And the Defias provides the Deadmines, making that a Horde outpost, and the Horde instantly receives a major stronghold very close to Stormwind City itself, providing them a massive strategic advantage, kind of like a new Theramore relatively close to Orgrimmar and Durotar.

That's my thing, we don't know how much the Syndicate holds of Alterac; wouldn't it be better to just clear it out and make it a stronghold? My problem here is that with the Forsaken already the de-facto holders of Alterac, the Syndicate aren't bringing anything in terms of resources save their numbers. That's why I do think an scenario where Alterac is annexed by the forsaken and the remaining alteraci conscripted might work. But I can't see them joining in any sort of position with bargaining power, because the whole idea that the could have enough power to sway things either way would make them too dangerous of a wild card in the middle of Forsaken territory.

Either they are too depowered to affect anything, or the opposite, in which case allowing them to maintain any autonomy would be just too dangerous. Maybe if Calia converts them? Mmm.

As for the Defias, That would be very contingent on the idea if we want a 5th war or not, because if the Horde gets a new stronghold so close to Stormwind, there's no way that won't be seen as an act of aggression and jumpstart another war.

I'm more of the idea that the factions should consolidate their major centers of power for more of a cooling period, and settling a new stronghold in the territory of the faction Capital would be too much of an hostile act. Like I could imagine it for any other territory that isn't either Stormwind or Orgrimmar, but there's no way the alliance -as human centric as it is- would allow the Horde to settle Westfall.

Regardless - they should join EITHER side. After four to five world-shattering wars, including the last one, that have destroyed so many lives on multiple continents, they should be realistic - they should not hold onto outdated past grudges, but rather take a real stand for themselves - either rejoining their former kin, or finding a new family where they belong.

I kinda agree with that, but again, my issue is that I can't see either group bringing anything to the Horde besides more political hostility with the Alliance. And if the Alteraci do have enough bargaining power to want a deal, they are better off dead for the Forsaken cause they can't really allow an autonomous region on the center of their holdings.

Like I said, the only way I could see Alterac working is if they are annexed and conscripted to be under Forsaken jurisdiction, and I do like that such a thing could be played as "Oh Calia is so good she convinced them to join UwU", or as "How the hell Calia convinced them, what powers of manipulation is she wielding"

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Stormwind should have ended the Defias, at least reduced it to small and divided groups of bandits and pirates, and retaken full control of Westfall ages ago with the Deadmines to be exploited again to benefit Westfall and Stormwind's economy.

At very best they're nothing but a nuisance, and realistically this juggernaut thing wasn't a threat to Stormwind City and would have been sunk by Stormwind Navy without too much difficulty or drama.

[Combatbutler]

Stormwind should have ended the Defias, at least reduced it to small and divided groups of bandits and pirates, and retaken full control of Westfall ages ago with the Deadmines to be exploited again to benefit Westfall and Stormwind's economy.

Hard to control a region, if most of the natives despise you.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Hard to control a region, if most of the natives despise you.

Well they could have taken real measures to progressively regain the trust or at least the respect of the populace, such as restabilizing the region's security and economy, making the fields healthy and productive again with the help of their druids allies, and chasing or at least greatly reducing the Defias and other bandits plaguing the region.

The real problem is that Blizzard writers and devs only focus on the faction wars and the major threats, and that the local issues and real problems faced by each race that should have been solved a long time ago are let stagnating just for the sake of the gameplay and the status quo.

[Ardenaso]

If we're speaking trade, the Thalassian elf <=> Night elf trade is already well done with Void elves and Nightborne anyway.

that's not close the only thing the Nightborne have in common with Night Elves is the purple skin; they have different skelton, ears, culture, and tradition

I still want living humans on the Horde

[DatToffer]

that's not close the only thing the Nightborne have in common with Night Elves is the purple skin; they have different skelton, ears, culture, and tradition

I still want living humans on the Horde

Weird flex but okay.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The only humans I can see in the Horde are mercenaries and spies.

The Syndicate and Defias are already enemies of the Horde, and don't have reasons to be more fond of the Horde than of their fellow humans. And if they had no choice but to join one of the factions, they'd likely do the "better the americans than the soviets" choice given that one faction is far more reknown for its ruthlessness and the untrustworthiness of several of its members than the other faction.

[Ardenaso]

The only humans I can see in the Horde are mercenaries and spies.

The Syndicate and Defias are already enemies of the Horde, and don't have reasons to be more fond of the Horde than of their fellow humans. And if they had no choice but to join one of the factions, they'd likely do the "better the americans than the soviets" choice given that one faction is far more reknown for its ruthlessness and the untrustworthiness of several of its members than the other faction.

Vanessa worked with the Rogue PC; she can do a Thalyssra for the Horde

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Vanessa worked with the Rogue PC; she can do a Thalyssra for the Horde

Which means that she could have worked as well with the Alliance, as with the Horde.

And honnestly the Defias don't have much to offer to the Horde, especially in their current state, not could count on them too much given the weak Horde presence in Azeroth region.

[OwenBurton]

No. The forsaken are part of the Horde. Alterac humans were temporary allied with the Horde because they thought the Horde was too strong to be stopped so it was better to collaborate with them.

Alterac humans despised both the Alliance and the Horde, maybe you should check your Lore. Even nowadays they still attack the Horde.

And I'm sorry for you, but one of the few heirs to the throne, aka Isiden Perenolde was welcomed and protected by Genn himself. Not by the Horde.

What happened to Isiden though? Will he possibly return like Calia has, one of those "lost" characters, after so many years hiding in the shadows? That could also an interesting power split, between the Syndicate wanting to join the Alliance under Isiden and Genn's counsel, and those who hate them so much for destroying Alterac that they would join the Horde.