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  1. #221
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    FF is pretty easy in that sense. As far as the jobs I tried, in very short, you have a rotation which is a cookie cutter and you stick to it, ignoring the alternative "routes".

    It is a pretty poor design and I guess it will soon be revamped. It is a good example of the opposite of making it too simple... So many spells are utterly useless.

    Sadly, out of competitive raids, there is a "Ban" on being slighlty competitive, so it all makes 0 difference if you slam your keyboard with your face or if you put an effort.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    So i dont play FF and probably never will, but from what i can tell here you have literal "rotations"??

    Like you algorithmically press a number of buttons in a predetermined "timer" of sort?

    IMO that is very bad gameplay. I don't want to recite a piano song, I want to keep my eyes on procs and cd's and RNG based stuff - which wow does very well.
    Having to remember to "press 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then 1 then 5 then 2 then 6 then ....... -> back to step 1" is ridiculous and not engaging.

    Please provide insight all mighty FF end game players
    There is a vast range of jobs and differences on how they play, some are more rotational while others revolve around managing 2-3 resources and some are more of a WoW style proc/priority gameplay loop.

    The more rotational style jobs like drg and sam wouldn't really flow the same if you'd just prune buttons down, executing your gcds while weaving and managing positionals is what makes them interesting (and really pretty to look at) imo. it's just the spice of those jobs.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    .....
    Is a 'job' = to 'class' or 'spec', using WoW terms?
    I 3d print stuff

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Make 4-6 buttons at most for your attack damage skills.

    Then i might consider trying out FF14.

    But F these "20 skills have to be keybinded"

    Or just introduce a "Simple mode" like some other KR MMO's have.

    Where the game just auto-does the rotation while you hold RMB
    Spotted the DH player

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    Is a 'job' = to 'class' or 'spec', using WoW terms?
    Yeah pretty much, you also have the division into combat and crafting/gathering jobs but oh well.

  5. #225
    It’s really not complicated at all once you organize everything.

    I put my single target abilities in one 3x4 box and I use single key binds for those

    Aoe in another with shift + same keybinds as single target

    Procs/cooldowns in another with caps lock + keybind (I switched caps lock and control in keyboard software)

    And lastly I bind mobility/insta spells to mouse

    Once you have it set up this way, it’s easy to see how all jobs are actually very similar, especially between each job in each category. Just flavor things and slight rotation changes between jobs.

    Once it’s organized and simplified it’s a lot more enjoyable.

    It’s all about build up and release. Like a song.

    You’re not just mindlessly spamming a couple buttons and twitch hitting procs as fast as you can like WoW.

    You have to be thoughtful about where you’re at in your rotation, while also paying attention to procs, but the procs aren’t as urgent in most cases as they are in WoW, so it’s less stressful.

    I enjoy it. It’s a more chill and thoughtful approach to tab target combat than WoW.

    I get tense and feel stressed with WoWs tedious, reactive combat, especially in raids, but I’m fine when I raid in FF14.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2022-01-12 at 09:37 AM.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    It’s really not complicated at all once you organize everything.

    I put my single target abilities in one 3x4 box and I use single key binds for those

    Aoe in another with shift + same keybinds as single target

    Procs/cooldowns in another with caps lock + keybind (I switched caps lock and control in keyboard software)

    And lastly I bind mobility/insta spells to mouse

    Once you have it set up this way, it’s easy to see how all jobs are actually very similar, especially between each job in each category. Just flavor things and slight rotation changes between jobs.

    Once it’s organized and simplified it’s a lot more enjoyable.

    It’s all about build up and release. Like a song.

    You’re not just mindlessly spamming a couple buttons and twitch hitting procs as fast as you can like WoW.

    You have to be thoughtful about where you’re at in your rotation, while also paying attention to procs, but the procs aren’t as urgent in most cases as they are in WoW, so it’s less stressful.

    I enjoy it. It’s a more chill and thoughtful approach to tab target combat than WoW.

    I get tense and feel stressed with WoWs tedious, reactive combat, especially in raids, but I’m fine when I raid in FF14.
    Uh except for the art of tabbing between targets to begin with. Granted, dungeons aren't hard enough for me to care, but jesus christ trying to tab between multiple targets in dungeons, fates or any other content is awful.

    I'm not a fan of jobs that have a decent amount of dual weaving oGCDs and that's mostly because of the atrocious server ticks in this game, combined with figuring out your own latency combined with skill/spell speed. It feels really bad and is probably my biggest critique of the combat in general. Yes you can play around it, but it's frustrating when you clearly have pressed abilities before something goes out, and the game doesn't register it at all. Again, with ground placed AoEs you can jump in early, but when you're trying to oGCD things like defensives and don't hit it fast enough it sucks major balls.

    But yeah it's still not awful. Some jobs have too many oGCDs that do very similar things (which IMO is a bit of ability bloat), but for the most part you're correct in the sense that a lot of jobs have similar flows. Gap closers, movement skills, defensives (unless you play tank) are all staples, and something you can basically have keybinds that exist for every job. After that most jobs "generally" have 1-3 rotations for ST, a host of oGCD damage abilities, a similar set rotation for AoE and then a mixture of buffs/maintenance or long CD abilities.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Uh except for the art of tabbing between targets to begin with. Granted, dungeons aren't hard enough for me to care, but jesus christ trying to tab between multiple targets in dungeons, fates or any other content is awful.

    I'm not a fan of jobs that have a decent amount of dual weaving oGCDs and that's mostly because of the atrocious server ticks in this game, combined with figuring out your own latency combined with skill/spell speed. It feels really bad and is probably my biggest critique of the combat in general. Yes you can play around it, but it's frustrating when you clearly have pressed abilities before something goes out, and the game doesn't register it at all. Again, with ground placed AoEs you can jump in early, but when you're trying to oGCD things like defensives and don't hit it fast enough it sucks major balls.

    But yeah it's still now awful. Some jobs have too many oGCDs that do very similar things (which IMO is a bit of ability bloat), but for the most part you're correct in the sense that a lot of jobs have similar flows. Gap closers, movement skills, defensives (unless you play tank) are all staples, and something you can basically have keybinds that exist for every job. After that most jobs "generally" have 1-3 rotations for ST, a host of oGCD damage abilities, a similar set rotation for AoE and then a mixture of buffs/maintenance or long CD abilities.
    Yup I agree with pretty much all of what your saying.

    Tabbing does suck in FF14. It’s weirdly bad.

    And my biggest gripe with the whole game is it’s engine and server limitations.

    They did say “we will spare no expense” a few months ago when talking about the game going forward, so hopefully they invest in updating all these things in the near future.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2022-01-12 at 10:01 AM.

  8. #228
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    Spotted the DH player

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah pretty much, you also have the division into combat and crafting/gathering jobs but oh well.
    1-7 + QEF + Mouse 1-7 should be enough for everything.

    DmG/rotation should still only be 4-6 buttons and the rest of binds to be used for cooldowns or utilities.

    I never want to get into ctrl+key or shift+key type of binds
    Last edited by Nalam the Venom; 2022-01-12 at 02:01 PM.

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  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    1-7 + QEF + Mouse 1-7 should be enough for everything.

    DmG/rotation should still only be 4-6 buttons and the rest of binds to be used for cooldowns or utilities.

    I never want to get into ctrl+key or shift+key type of binds
    That's enough for FFXIV as well.
    Although R and X and C are also easy to reach.

    I find 5-7 harder to reach than ctrl+1-4/shift+1-4 though.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    Is a 'job' = to 'class' or 'spec', using WoW terms?
    A single character has access to all jobs (provided they go unlock them, which isnt hard) and are swapped based on weapon equipped.

    So jobs are sort of like specs due to swappability, but are more like classes in terms of seperate toolkits, themes, and proficiencies. There isn't really mechanical customization like wow, no talent system.

  11. #231
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    So i dont play FF and probably never will, but from what i can tell here you have literal "rotations"??

    Like you algorithmically press a number of buttons in a predetermined "timer" of sort?

    IMO that is very bad gameplay. I don't want to recite a piano song, I want to keep my eyes on procs and cd's and RNG based stuff - which wow does very well.
    Having to remember to "press 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then 1 then 5 then 2 then 6 then ....... -> back to step 1" is ridiculous and not engaging.

    Please provide insight all mighty FF end game players
    Um sort of? It really depends on the job. I haven't played everything, but a good portion of the jobs in FF14 have strict rotations. But like I said, it still depends on job. Dancer and Red Mage are basically proc priority like jobs that play a lot like other specs/jobs/whatever in other MMOs.

    I'm mixed on the combat in FF14 as well, but most of that comes from the latency/server tick.

    The game truly isn't a pure raiding or dungeon game though, which is a shame because the boss design in both dungeons/raids is actually pretty good IMO. Part of the fun from a rotational standpoint in this game is coming up with strategies that give you the most uptime possible, and that's usually due to clever positioning or literally eating mechanics that you can get away with. Hard to compare raiding in this game to other games because there aren't that many raid fights, but most of them are mechanically dense, on the longer side and are essentially 'dances' that you work through. The RNG is limited which makes the progression a little bit less frustrating.

    Realistically speaking if you enjoy boss encounters in any MMO you would probably like this game solely because of that, even if you didn't care for the story. It's certainly engaging enough from a combat perspective (my gripes aside) and any negatives effects of the combat are made up by pretty well designed boss encounters (which the game has many). Only downside being is that it doesn't have many boss encounters, but you could just play the game like I do and subscribe for a couple months when a savage tier comes out, then unsubscribe until the next cycle.

    From a numbers perspective though there are a lot less random things going off rotationally in this game, and as such if you can perform your rotation perfectly the variance between players from a throughput perspective is pretty paper thin. But that's easier said than done. Even with really good damage in this game you're still going to have to deal with the majority of the mechanics, and mechanics are basically even spread in this game. Other MMOs aren't exactly like this. If you're looking to get good numbers in other MMOs, not only do you have to play correctly and do the mechanics that are given to you, but you're also actively hoping you don't get mechanics in addition to getting a little bit of luck in some of the RNG variables that contribute to damage.

    TLDR; If you can land your rotation damage variance won't be that different compared to others. Game however is mechanically dense and rarely do you get to training dummy a boss in this game.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    So i dont play FF and probably never will, but from what i can tell here you have literal "rotations"??

    Like you algorithmically press a number of buttons in a predetermined "timer" of sort?

    IMO that is very bad gameplay. I don't want to recite a piano song, I want to keep my eyes on procs and cd's and RNG based stuff - which wow does very well.
    Having to remember to "press 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then 1 then 5 then 2 then 6 then ....... -> back to step 1" is ridiculous and not engaging.

    Please provide insight all mighty FF end game players
    In a nutshell, yes. Bard and Dancer have a little RNG but aside from that pretty much every class has a strict rotation that doesn't deviate. Even when jobs have a resource to "manage" the generation is always static and predictable so it's really still just a rotation.

    To make matters worse, balance entirely revolves around "buff windows" (As in, "Everyone's cooldowns are 60 seconds so we must line them all up together at every 60 second mark.") so the optimal gameplay becomes even more rigid. It also means that any little interruption can severely impact your final DPS.

    It's a long-standing complaint about the game, but there are also a lot of people who enjoy it, so eh.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    In a nutshell, yes. Bard and Dancer have a little RNG but aside from that pretty much every class has a strict rotation that doesn't deviate. Even when jobs have a resource to "manage" the generation is always static and predictable so it's really still just a rotation.
    This isn't entirely accurate, there are few jobs that have a strict rotations that don't deviate at all anymore. I honestly can't think of any combat job where, if the game allowed it, you could do your entire rotation with a macro. There's procs, cooldowns and situations that would benefit more from a different button press than what would be entirely dictated by a strict rotation.

    It's certainly much more rigid than WoW, but it's not entirely rigid like you're suggesting.

    To make matters worse, balance entirely revolves around "buff windows" (As in, "Everyone's cooldowns are 60 seconds so we must line them all up together at every 60 second mark.") so the optimal gameplay becomes even more rigid. It also means that any little interruption can severely impact your final DPS.
    I agree with this, but being that strict with the buff windows is only a thing in super high end content where every little bit of damage matters. For the vast majority of content, it's not this strict. That's not to say the benefits aren't the same in all content, but there's really no reason to coordinate with your group members on your 60, 90 and 120 buff windows in dungeon or normal mode stuff.

    It's a long-standing complaint about the game, but there are also a lot of people who enjoy it, so eh.[/QUOTE]

    This is true. I enjoy it, personally but do think they could improve on it.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    In a nutshell, yes. Bard and Dancer have a little RNG but aside from that pretty much every class has a strict rotation that doesn't deviate.
    This really isn't very accurate. There are few jobs that are as rigid as the poster is suggesting...
    Also, DNC doesn't have "a little RNG", DNC is "this ability can proc this ability which can proc this ability which can proc this ability". It's almost 100% proc based.

    However, the buff window complaint is very valid. I'm not a fan of it at all, personally, but since jobs are built around sharing cooldown timers it isn't something you really have to worry about most of the time. You always want to use your cooldowns, well, on cooldown. In most MMOs. It is rather humorous how the community has lifted up buff windows as some kind of 5Head meta though.

  15. #235
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    Long rotations are no fun, at least for me. Most classes had them at least the jobs I tried... after 50 it's more buttons that can be put on my action bars... way too many! If I got more them 2 bars I'm out...

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    This really isn't very accurate. There are few jobs that are as rigid as the poster is suggesting...
    What other jobs don't have rigid rotations?

    I'm sure you can say something like "SMN can use their legos in any order!" but that's hardly some big reaction-based gameplay.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by |Dexter| View Post
    Long rotations are no fun, at least for me. Most classes had them at least the jobs I tried... after 50 it's more buttons that can be put on my action bars... way too many! If I got more them 2 bars I'm out...
    I wonder why this is a problem for so many in this thread?
    It's just a bit of muscle memory and keybinding with 1 to 2 modifiers, it's also not that bad.. every job can be played with under 36 binds (3 actionbars) while WoW will usually require 2 (except DHs )

    It's also worth considering that most jobs have a 2,5 second gcd with the occasional weave or double weave, applying your muscle memory and executing the rotation correctly pretty much is the skill expression and mastery curve that makes it fun.

    I'm borrowing this from jesse cox but I think he hit the nail on the head with that:"Combat in WoW feels like a street brawl while combat in FF14 feels like a dance", personally I can enjoy both for what they are.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post

    2,5 second gcd

    .

    omg what? That's huge!
    So you're doing at most 24 actions per minute (excluding these off gcd buttons i have seen mentioned). talk about slow.
    I 3d print stuff

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by |Dexter| View Post
    Long rotations are no fun, at least for me. Most classes had them at least the jobs I tried... after 50 it's more buttons that can be put on my action bars... way too many! If I got more them 2 bars I'm out...
    Short rotations aren't much fun either. It has to be a balance of engagement vs frustration, which FFXIV doesn't do perfectly but does well enough imo. Further complicating matters is the fact that you have different forms of content. In your typical dungeon you can get away with getting hit by a mechanic or two but a savage raid will demand that you do the mechanic while still pulling off your rotation. I don't know that any MMO with this combat style will be able to satisfy everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    What other jobs don't have rigid rotations?
    SMN is probably the most rigid job in the game at the moment for sure. Due to almost every cast being instant, you have freedom to handle mechanics without much thought to pre-planning movement. You already shot it down I do think it bears mentioning again that it is literally true you can choose which summon to use and a good player will to maximize uptime...but I'm not going to use that as an excuse. It fits the bill. I would consider SMN the exception though, not the rule, and like I said there are few like it. I don't think it's necessary to go through each job one by one but I really can't think of any other job as bad as SMN (*cries as a SMN main*).

    Rotation complexity is a difficult thing to argue. Take BLM - on paper you have two clearly defined conservation and spending rotations but any BLM will tell you how difficult it is to maintain. It is a constant battle with pre-planning movement with smart use of instant ability procs and knowledge of the encounter. A struggle for new players but something that becomes second nature for an experienced one. So is it rigid, or not?

    It gets more interesting the more I think about it. I can see how players who have been playing the game for 8 years straight can go "ugh this rotation is so easy" while a newer player will complain about how complex it is.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    omg what? That's huge!
    So you're doing at most 24 actions per minute (excluding these off gcd buttons i have seen mentioned). talk about slow.
    Honestly it feels a lot better to play than it actually sounds, very few jobs actually feel 'slow' except for Black Mage and that's by design with its long cast times.

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