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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    The game just has a crazy custlmizeable interface for controllers tbh. As in i can easily swap between 3 whole bars with only things like double tapping or a single button press. Four if i do another option and i can slow swap on purpose by holding a dutton down.

    It's indeed more like say Wrath era buttons but not too many(and tbh i do wish they hadn't removed so many skills or at least merged them instead of outright removal. Always feels like backwards progression and sooo much empty bar space)
    Well, I'm only up through HS so I haven't seen the full depths of these button bloats yet (and it shouldn't take an illegal mod to accomplish in PVE what the game does for you automatically in PVP, not sure how they can defend that from a design standpoint), but so far I feel like... mechanics are generally not so split second that you can't just leave certain things off key binds entirely if you have to and click them. Defensive CDs for example.

    I'm a pretty "stripped down" player, I don't like or want to use alt+ or ctrl+ modifiers for my keybinds and I don't have a gaming mouse, so for comfortable hand use I have about... 16-17 keybinds I can use reliably in combat. I had to learn a whole new way to play when I switched from COH to WoW and my Nostromo N50 didn't work and I'm not trying to do it again lol. So far my impression is I"ll probably end up tanking by default because they've got melee DPS reaaaaaaally overcooked in 14 and it looks to be about as punished and thankless as it is in WoW, if not moreso.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    There is no official support for mods or plugins so it is all third party stuff. You will have to follow the installation instructions specific to the plugin.
    Ya I am lost then it doesn't have any good instructions, just says to type stuff in game to get the menue :| guess it is 15 moves for me

  3. #143
    Yes, this is one of the caveats of FF14, but could be just considered part of the bigger problem which is a completely trash combat system. An even bigger issue is the clunkiness of combat IMO, but the bloated rotations would probably be the second worst thing. Until they get rid of that, I probably won't be giving ff14 another shot. Instead of those 1-2-3 combo skills they should just roll them into one ability.

    These bloated rotations do not make the classes interesting nor hard. They make combat boring and annoying. There's nothing hard nor interesting in clicking 15 buttons one after another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    once you start thinking of 1-2-3 combos as 1 single string, the rotations become much easier.
    i don't even remember the names of skills in the combo because i just remember "combo 1" and "combo 2".
    They are not 1 thing though. They are still sets of 3 skills that you need to use one after another. This is not an issue that "thinking" can solve.
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  4. #144
    But having rotations based on a few abilities with 10-30s cooldowns and then a resource-building one-button spam isn't boring or annoying? Come on, playing a WoW rotation and a FFXIV rotation are not miles apart, the main difference is the GCD speed.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    These bloated rotations do not make the classes interesting nor hard. They make combat boring and annoying. There's nothing hard nor interesting in clicking 15 buttons one after another.
    That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. With that mindset, you could argue the same thing with any MMO, in which case I would be inclined to ask if you just dislike MMO combat in general? Obviously FFXIV combat is not for everyone, and everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but it is also true that an opinion can be uneducated.
    They are not 1 thing though. They are still sets of 3 skills that you need to use one after another. This is not an issue that "thinking" can solve.
    I feel like you are missing his or her point. It is very common practice to break things into easier to digest chunks. That is how I learned to play the piano. I'd learn a piece by breaking it into...well, pieces, and then build up muscle memory for each one, until I could put them all together. SAM, for example, revolves around 3 basic combos that build up sen. Learn combo 1 and its nuances, learn combo 2 and its nuances, then learn combo 3 and its nuances. Your rotation is now easier to understand. I'll do combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 and then my sen finisher. It also makes it easier to adapt, as it's not always as straight forward as one combo after the other.

    Not everyone likes that, and I'm not saying that you should have to like that, but your post reeks of vitriol.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    Well, I'm only up through HS so I haven't seen the full depths of these button bloats yet (and it shouldn't take an illegal mod to accomplish in PVE what the game does for you automatically in PVP, not sure how they can defend that from a design standpoint), but so far I feel like... mechanics are generally not so split second that you can't just leave certain things off key binds entirely if you have to and click them. Defensive CDs for example.

    I'm a pretty "stripped down" player, I don't like or want to use alt+ or ctrl+ modifiers for my keybinds and I don't have a gaming mouse, so for comfortable hand use I have about... 16-17 keybinds I can use reliably in combat. I had to learn a whole new way to play when I switched from COH to WoW and my Nostromo N50 didn't work and I'm not trying to do it again lol. So far my impression is I"ll probably end up tanking by default because they've got melee DPS reaaaaaaally overcooked in 14 and it looks to be about as punished and thankless as it is in WoW, if not moreso.
    Mm if you have a controller it might be worth looking into trying it out. If not you should be mostpy ok though missing a few things.

    But if not doing say savage/ultimate you're likely good

  7. #147
    Up to lvl50 the buttons are fine, I use a controller which is rather fun I find, would of been mouse and keyboard but it would reconized my extra buttons on mouse so meh. After lvl50 those you keep getting more and more shit to press just to press shit quickly running out of room. Already have one bare for stuns, and melee.. another for aoe, healing and another of cooldowns..

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. With that mindset, you could argue the same thing with any MMO, in which case I would be inclined to ask if you just dislike MMO combat in general? Obviously FFXIV combat is not for everyone, and everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but it is also true that an opinion can be uneducated.
    And why would that be the case with "any MMO"? I've played some of them in my life and I found this problem only in FF14. It's not "uneducated", it's pretty much a fact that rotations are bloated and ridiculously long in FF14 without providing any real challenge. It's just clicking skills one after another. WoW rotations are usually like 5-8 skills, but are far more interesting and to an extent challenging because they aren't simple rotations but priority cycles, with skills that you use to react to buffs and procs. There is much less useless bloat, although it is still present in some classes for sure, and you actually have to think a bit while you play.

    I feel like you are missing his or her point. It is very common practice to break things into easier to digest chunks. That is how I learned to play the piano. I'd learn a piece by breaking it into...well, pieces, and then build up muscle memory for each one, until I could put them all together. SAM, for example, revolves around 3 basic combos that build up sen. Learn combo 1 and its nuances, learn combo 2 and its nuances, then learn combo 3 and its nuances. Your rotation is now easier to understand. I'll do combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 and then my sen finisher. It also makes it easier to adapt, as it's not always as straight forward as one combo after the other.

    Not everyone likes that, and I'm not saying that you should have to like that, but your post reeks of vitriol.
    Disliking your favorite game does not equal vitriol. The funny thing about that is that I actually like parts of FF14, like the background and setting, being a big fan of the FF games in general. It's mainly the combat (plus some other systems like alt leveling) that make it unplayable for me.
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  9. #149
    The Dancer has a 4 button core "rotation," which changes to a different set of 4 buttons for AoE, but the exact same rotation. On top of that you have 3 proc buttons - a single target proc, and aoe proc, and big aoe proc that can proc from either of the previous two procs that is strong enough to use in single target rotation. Lastly you have a resource dump button. Beyond that, you have cooldowns, and 2 different self-buff "Steps" a 1 minute cooldown and a 30 second cooldown version, and when you activate these, your 4 single target rotation buttons change to different, color-coded steps that you have to press in a random sequence (2 for the 30 second version and 4 for the 1 minute version) and finish the sequence by pressing the initial step button again.

    It sounds like a lot, but it's really pretty simple in practice. There is a more rigid "rotation" to make the most efficient use of your abilities during major cooldowns, but you see stuff kind of like that in WoW too.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    But having rotations based on a few abilities with 10-30s cooldowns and then a resource-building one-button spam isn't boring or annoying? Come on, playing a WoW rotation and a FFXIV rotation are not miles apart, the main difference is the GCD speed.
    As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

    While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

    This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

    None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

    I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-09-03 at 12:33 PM.

  11. #151
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    I basically just play Dark Knight and Black Mage and I feel like there's just a lot of overlap in abilities. The oGCD mana nukes for Dark Knight (both ST/AoE) feel fine, but essentially serve the same purpose as the secondary resource bar you get later. The difference being the secondary resource nukes (which have the exact same function basically) are just beefed up versions of those same abilities, except they take a GCD to use instead.

    Black Mage is pretty similar with a lot of abilities feeling the same, and honestly you get to points where certain abilities are completely useless. While I'll take the "timewalking" in FF14 over the version we get in WoW, Black Mage feels absolutely awful if you're doing low level content, and it makes you drag out abilities that you basically never use. Not that the old content is difficult (especially dungeon content), but if you're doing savage raids or ultimate content in the older section of the game, it just feels trash to play.

    I won't be ignorant and claim that every class is like this, but watching my GF play other DPS specs that I haven't listed, confirms that it's not isolated to these two classes that I solely play at the moment either. Dark Knight at least feels fine in the sense that nothing is obsolete, but Black Mage is at a really weird spot at certain junctures in the game. Going back and doing low level content as a Dark Knight kind of sucks, but at least I don't have to really 'think' about it. I'm going to guess there's a lot of abilities that serve the same purpose on a lot of classes in this game, which is fine, but I wouldn't necessarily call that great design either. It's kind of like having a fire spell on your bar that just costs a GCD to cast, and having another fire spell on your bar that's slightly stronger but has a 30 second CD.

    In summary most classes in FF14 probably don't have a true 15 button rotation. More like half a dozen, or slightly more. It would be sort of like WoW of old where you put everything into one button and mash the shit out of it, and then claim that you have a 15 button rotation. FF14 is sort of like that, but you basically just weave these oGCD abilities between your GCD abilities, and that's basically it. If you sit down and understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, it starts to make sense.

    My issue with FF14 combat is that it just feels really rigid to play from a combat perspective.

  12. #152
    Imo, in principle WoW and FF14 combat both go towards two extremes. WoW goes more towards the fewer buttons / very proc-heavy combat. This makes for a more engaged and reactive gameplay on the one hand, but takes control away from the player on the other hand. What you do depends more on RNG than you actually playing. One example from when last I played would be the SoC procs on my monk early in SL. It was such a huge boost for aoe damage. If it procced in the exact right time when you had to burst down some aoe mobs, it could trivialize the mechanic for your group. Without any proc, on the other hand, your aoe damage in that phase was just lackluster.
    FF14 goes more into the direction of player control and creates difficulty with a lot of buttons. The rotation can be very stiff and is more influenced by the boss and its mechanics (e.g. invulnerabilities, movement etc) than procs on the player. The advantage over the WoW system is obviously that it gives the player more control. However, it makes for a less engaged gameplay and causes button bloat.

    Of course, such things vary from class to class, and there are other variables (e.g. extra resources). I personally see good things on both sides, and am happy that one is not a 1:1 copy of the other.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

    While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

    This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

    None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

    I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.
    FFXIV jobs all have utility as well, and I'm not trying to dissect your wall of text so that's about all I'm typing

  14. #154
    So I play MNK and lower level AST. MNK is basically six buttons as part of your normal rotation. You then get your burst window that changes your rotation (bust still the same abilities) for 6 GCDs. Beyond that you juggle a mini rotation right before your big burst window. It takes a minute to learn but once you realize how it works its really easy.

    AST for me so far is throw HoTs on group, AoE heal if need be, and juggle cards and then toss cards to the appropriate party members. It's actually really simple and a lot of fun. Oh, and pre-pull shield the group.

    Honestly, the combat in FFXIV is far more engaging and realizes class fantasy far better in rotation. At least IMO.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    FFXIV jobs all have utility as well, and I'm not trying to dissect your wall of text so that's about all I'm typing
    Then don't make the argument if you're not prepared to defend it. I also never said FF14 jobs don't have utility.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Then don't make the argument if you're not prepared to defend it. I also never said FF14 jobs don't have utility.
    I played WoW for 15 years, and have every FFXIV job over 70, so it is IN MY OPINION that going through rotations isn't wildy different. I don't give a shit about winning some stupid argument on MMOC, so if you want to strut around like a peacock because you can type 500 word responses, then go ahead. Nobody cares.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I played WoW for 15 years, and have every FFXIV job over 70, so it is IN MY OPINION that going through rotations isn't wildy different. I don't give a shit about winning some stupid argument on MMOC, so if you want to strut around like a peacock because you can type 500 word responses, then go ahead. Nobody cares.
    Winning? It's called having a discussion. If you aren't interested that's fine and since you don't like well constructed detailed arguments I'll keep this short rather than refute each of your points.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Winning? It's called having a discussion. If you aren't interested that's fine and since you don't like well constructed detailed arguments I'll keep this short rather than refute each of your points.
    Bro, I wrote like a two sentence post that said WoW's and FFXIV's are not all that different and you gave 4 paragraphs breaking down how Ret (lol k) is so complicated, even using BoP as a reason for how complex the rotation (wut) is. If that's how you discuss things in real life, people probably say ok and walk away there as well.

  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

    While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

    This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

    None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

    I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.
    doesnt basically all of that exist for bard.
    1) Don't cap Holy Power = dont sit at 100 of your lame bar
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs = 2/3 of your songs give procs the same as this, 1 speeds the rotation
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff = maintain dots to keep damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges = nothing, bard doesnt have 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack) = this is just a rotation, same as bard
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack = all bard songs provide a changing rotation

    add in the party wide buffs bard can push. the defensive cd's it can give, movement speed, etc. all pretty much what you listed.

    pretty much the same for red mage as well, proc based priority that changes rotation, utility in the form of healing and rezzing.

    same for summoner, just less rezz.
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2021-09-03 at 09:59 PM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    And why would that be the case with "any MMO"?
    If you ignore what the abilities actually do and break it down into "press one skill after the other" that's...literally how every MMO plays. The engagement for combos is in what the skills/combos do...going back to SAM, I mentioned 3 combos. Combo 1 needs to be used from the rear and puts up a buff. Combo 2 needs to be used from the flank and provides a separate buff. Combo 3 is a shorter combo and thus can be prioritized higher if you need to use a 1 sen finisher (which puts up a DoT). It is also not uncommon to "pause" a combo to use a non-combo breaking ability, then "resume" it. You're simplifying it down to make an argument and, in doing so, are spreading disinformation. If you don't find that engaging, cool, but it is clearly more than just pressing one button after the other in sequence.
    Disliking your favorite game
    Why is that always the assumption when people try to argue something? FFXIV isn't even my favorite MMO, let alone my favorite game. I have voiced disapproval of a lot of things in the Megathread. I just don't like the spread of bad information.


    To get the discussion back on track, ability bloat is definitely a problem in FFXIV but removing combos isn't the right decision. It would eliminate what engagement combat does have. I would instead look at reducing unnecessary cooldowns (some tanks have like 3-4 mitigation CDs alone) and utility. They could also not have so many ~30s+ oGCDs and instead just have 1-2 oGCDs on shorter cooldowns.

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