Do all classes require 15+ buttons rotations?

[kiramon]

I guess I would have to ask then: What's an example of a job that's "incredibly complex"?

There really isn't one. Can't even think of one, honestly.

I think monk makes people think it's harder than it is - since half is flank and half is back, though it's pretty straight forward otherwise. I think ninja is hard for people that aren't thinking about 3-2-1 or 1-2-3 or 2-1-3 etc and don't realize what's actually deciding what ninjutsu is cast.

DNC, MCH, BRD are all extremely easy and straight forward - and probably where anyone just starting that's overwhelmed should start, less so for COR but still pretty straightforward.

Melee DPS is where more of the complexity comes into play - but seriously, just use ff14 combo mods. Turning your 3 button combos into 1 button combos means you barely need more than a single bar, and then can focus on timing CDs etc.

One of the biggest ptifalls of 'new' players I noticed was 1. Not using CDs regularly and 2. Not understanding that AoE is extremely straightforward and mathable as to when to use it vs single target.

Healers are pretty basic across the board; it's harder to DPS and heal in wow than it is to DPS and heal here, just due to the way damage works.


I think a case can be made for SMN, just because it's awkward - not because it's hard. And yes, FF14 launcher has addons that can take care of Dot Timer for SMN, too, for anyone wondering.

[Comfort]

White mage rotation at 80 is Dia every 30 seconds, asize on CD hopefully in the GCD window of Dia and then fill with glare >_>

Your healing spells are not your rotation, you just pick the heal spell best for the task in the scenario you find yourself in if you need to heal.

And if you get that sweet blood lily you just unload.

You seem to not be interested in the content that would require you to have learned rotations flawlessly as well, so there is no need to feel overwhelmed. If you level a job you will learn the rotations reasonably well as you go along. You don't just get to 80 and learn it then, you build on what you Learn.

There isn't a mythic plus equivalent but you could check out extreme trials as it can be done pretty casually through PF. Or maybe if willing to give it a go, late patch savage or even try it when it's the "old" patch.

[TomGreen]

There really isn't one. Can't even think of one, honestly.

I think monk makes people think it's harder than it is - since half is flank and half is back, though it's pretty straight forward otherwise. I think ninja is hard for people that aren't thinking about 3-2-1 or 1-2-3 or 2-1-3 etc and don't realize what's actually deciding what ninjutsu is cast.

DNC, MCH, BRD are all extremely easy and straight forward - and probably where anyone just starting that's overwhelmed should start, less so for COR but still pretty straightforward.

Melee DPS is where more of the complexity comes into play - but seriously, just use ff14 combo mods. Turning your 3 button combos into 1 button combos means you barely need more than a single bar, and then can focus on timing CDs etc.

One of the biggest ptifalls of 'new' players I noticed was 1. Not using CDs regularly and 2. Not understanding that AoE is extremely straightforward and mathable as to when to use it vs single target.

Healers are pretty basic across the board; it's harder to DPS and heal in wow than it is to DPS and heal here, just due to the way damage works.


I think a case can be made for SMN, just because it's awkward - not because it's hard. And yes, FF14 launcher has addons that can take care of Dot Timer for SMN, too, for anyone wondering.

I haven't used ff launcher yet but I am really considering it but I wonder if in the end it will just make the game wow 2.0 for me where the add-ons play the game for you. It feels really weird having to constantly glance at my hotbars for certain abilities because well, some have no audio or visual cues. Looking up and down constantly feels so unnatural.

[PACOX]

I have a gunbreaker at level 70 right now. Outside of CDs, there's only like...4-5 buttons in the rotation. I don't know a single class that has a 15+ button rotation. You are grossly exaggerating how many buttons are in a rotation.

Bascially. GNB is meme'd as the class with 1000 buttons but you really only press a handful. People really overcomplicate the class (and others) when they explain it.

[Devilyaki]

Warrior from my perspective so far. 3 button combos with only the last part being the variant, a short dmg CD, 2 button aoe combo, and 2 spenders. Friend tells me paladin is even easier.

There's also a combo mod that exists that turns consistent combos into how the PvP ability works (one button that will change the ability to the next part of the combo), but use at your own risk.

How do you get these plugins, I am lost as in how to put them on :\ wow has an addon folder to put what ever in but ff14 doesn't --

[xmirrors]

How do you get these plugins, I am lost as in how to put them on :\ wow has an addon folder to put what ever in but ff14 doesn't --

There is no official support for mods or plugins so it is all third party stuff. You will have to follow the installation instructions specific to the plugin.

[Speedlance]

Anything above 1 spell rotation is complicated.

[Stormdash]

I get worried about what rotation and bar management will be like at max level for raiding - basically 14 is at or even past the point WoW had gotten before they first dabbled with pruning - but then I think "for the love of God, if people can play this with a controller surely it can't be that bad once you're doing it"

[Sorrior]

I get worried about what rotation and bar management will be like at max level for raiding - basically 14 is at or even past the point WoW had gotten before they first dabbled with pruning - but then I think "for the love of God, if people can play this with a controller surely it can't be that bad once you're doing it"

The game just has a crazy custlmizeable interface for controllers tbh. As in i can easily swap between 3 whole bars with only things like double tapping or a single button press. Four if i do another option and i can slow swap on purpose by holding a dutton down.

It's indeed more like say Wrath era buttons but not too many(and tbh i do wish they hadn't removed so many skills or at least merged them instead of outright removal. Always feels like backwards progression and sooo much empty bar space)

[Stormdash]

The game just has a crazy custlmizeable interface for controllers tbh. As in i can easily swap between 3 whole bars with only things like double tapping or a single button press. Four if i do another option and i can slow swap on purpose by holding a dutton down.

It's indeed more like say Wrath era buttons but not too many(and tbh i do wish they hadn't removed so many skills or at least merged them instead of outright removal. Always feels like backwards progression and sooo much empty bar space)

Well, I'm only up through HS so I haven't seen the full depths of these button bloats yet (and it shouldn't take an illegal mod to accomplish in PVE what the game does for you automatically in PVP, not sure how they can defend that from a design standpoint), but so far I feel like... mechanics are generally not so split second that you can't just leave certain things off key binds entirely if you have to and click them. Defensive CDs for example.

I'm a pretty "stripped down" player, I don't like or want to use alt+ or ctrl+ modifiers for my keybinds and I don't have a gaming mouse, so for comfortable hand use I have about... 16-17 keybinds I can use reliably in combat. I had to learn a whole new way to play when I switched from COH to WoW and my Nostromo N50 didn't work and I'm not trying to do it again lol. So far my impression is I"ll probably end up tanking by default because they've got melee DPS reaaaaaaally overcooked in 14 and it looks to be about as punished and thankless as it is in WoW, if not moreso.

[Devilyaki]

There is no official support for mods or plugins so it is all third party stuff. You will have to follow the installation instructions specific to the plugin.

Ya I am lost then it doesn't have any good instructions, just says to type stuff in game to get the menue :| guess it is 15 moves for me

[Azerate]

Yes, this is one of the caveats of FF14, but could be just considered part of the bigger problem which is a completely trash combat system. An even bigger issue is the clunkiness of combat IMO, but the bloated rotations would probably be the second worst thing. Until they get rid of that, I probably won't be giving ff14 another shot. Instead of those 1-2-3 combo skills they should just roll them into one ability.

These bloated rotations do not make the classes interesting nor hard. They make combat boring and annoying. There's nothing hard nor interesting in clicking 15 buttons one after another.

once you start thinking of 1-2-3 combos as 1 single string, the rotations become much easier.
i don't even remember the names of skills in the combo because i just remember "combo 1" and "combo 2".

They are not 1 thing though. They are still sets of 3 skills that you need to use one after another. This is not an issue that "thinking" can solve.

[Absintheminded]

But having rotations based on a few abilities with 10-30s cooldowns and then a resource-building one-button spam isn't boring or annoying? Come on, playing a WoW rotation and a FFXIV rotation are not miles apart, the main difference is the GCD speed.

[xmirrors]

These bloated rotations do not make the classes interesting nor hard. They make combat boring and annoying. There's nothing hard nor interesting in clicking 15 buttons one after another.

That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. With that mindset, you could argue the same thing with any MMO, in which case I would be inclined to ask if you just dislike MMO combat in general? Obviously FFXIV combat is not for everyone, and everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but it is also true that an opinion can be uneducated.

They are not 1 thing though. They are still sets of 3 skills that you need to use one after another. This is not an issue that "thinking" can solve.

I feel like you are missing his or her point. It is very common practice to break things into easier to digest chunks. That is how I learned to play the piano. I'd learn a piece by breaking it into...well, pieces, and then build up muscle memory for each one, until I could put them all together. SAM, for example, revolves around 3 basic combos that build up sen. Learn combo 1 and its nuances, learn combo 2 and its nuances, then learn combo 3 and its nuances. Your rotation is now easier to understand. I'll do combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 and then my sen finisher. It also makes it easier to adapt, as it's not always as straight forward as one combo after the other.

Not everyone likes that, and I'm not saying that you should have to like that, but your post reeks of vitriol.

[Sorrior]

Well, I'm only up through HS so I haven't seen the full depths of these button bloats yet (and it shouldn't take an illegal mod to accomplish in PVE what the game does for you automatically in PVP, not sure how they can defend that from a design standpoint), but so far I feel like... mechanics are generally not so split second that you can't just leave certain things off key binds entirely if you have to and click them. Defensive CDs for example.

I'm a pretty "stripped down" player, I don't like or want to use alt+ or ctrl+ modifiers for my keybinds and I don't have a gaming mouse, so for comfortable hand use I have about... 16-17 keybinds I can use reliably in combat. I had to learn a whole new way to play when I switched from COH to WoW and my Nostromo N50 didn't work and I'm not trying to do it again lol. So far my impression is I"ll probably end up tanking by default because they've got melee DPS reaaaaaaally overcooked in 14 and it looks to be about as punished and thankless as it is in WoW, if not moreso.

Mm if you have a controller it might be worth looking into trying it out. If not you should be mostpy ok though missing a few things.

But if not doing say savage/ultimate you're likely good

[Devilyaki]

Up to lvl50 the buttons are fine, I use a controller which is rather fun I find, would of been mouse and keyboard but it would reconized my extra buttons on mouse so meh. After lvl50 those you keep getting more and more shit to press just to press shit quickly running out of room. Already have one bare for stuns, and melee.. another for aoe, healing and another of cooldowns..

[Azerate]

That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. With that mindset, you could argue the same thing with any MMO, in which case I would be inclined to ask if you just dislike MMO combat in general? Obviously FFXIV combat is not for everyone, and everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but it is also true that an opinion can be uneducated.

And why would that be the case with "any MMO"? I've played some of them in my life and I found this problem only in FF14. It's not "uneducated", it's pretty much a fact that rotations are bloated and ridiculously long in FF14 without providing any real challenge. It's just clicking skills one after another. WoW rotations are usually like 5-8 skills, but are far more interesting and to an extent challenging because they aren't simple rotations but priority cycles, with skills that you use to react to buffs and procs. There is much less useless bloat, although it is still present in some classes for sure, and you actually have to think a bit while you play.

I feel like you are missing his or her point. It is very common practice to break things into easier to digest chunks. That is how I learned to play the piano. I'd learn a piece by breaking it into...well, pieces, and then build up muscle memory for each one, until I could put them all together. SAM, for example, revolves around 3 basic combos that build up sen. Learn combo 1 and its nuances, learn combo 2 and its nuances, then learn combo 3 and its nuances. Your rotation is now easier to understand. I'll do combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 and then my sen finisher. It also makes it easier to adapt, as it's not always as straight forward as one combo after the other.

Not everyone likes that, and I'm not saying that you should have to like that, but your post reeks of vitriol.

Disliking your favorite game does not equal vitriol. The funny thing about that is that I actually like parts of FF14, like the background and setting, being a big fan of the FF games in general. It's mainly the combat (plus some other systems like alt leveling) that make it unplayable for me.

[Neuroticaine]

The Dancer has a 4 button core "rotation," which changes to a different set of 4 buttons for AoE, but the exact same rotation. On top of that you have 3 proc buttons - a single target proc, and aoe proc, and big aoe proc that can proc from either of the previous two procs that is strong enough to use in single target rotation. Lastly you have a resource dump button. Beyond that, you have cooldowns, and 2 different self-buff "Steps" a 1 minute cooldown and a 30 second cooldown version, and when you activate these, your 4 single target rotation buttons change to different, color-coded steps that you have to press in a random sequence (2 for the 30 second version and 4 for the 1 minute version) and finish the sequence by pressing the initial step button again.

It sounds like a lot, but it's really pretty simple in practice. There is a more rigid "rotation" to make the most efficient use of your abilities during major cooldowns, but you see stuff kind of like that in WoW too.

[Wrecktangle]

But having rotations based on a few abilities with 10-30s cooldowns and then a resource-building one-button spam isn't boring or annoying? Come on, playing a WoW rotation and a FFXIV rotation are not miles apart, the main difference is the GCD speed.

As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

1) Don't cap Holy Power
2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.

[Tojara]

I basically just play Dark Knight and Black Mage and I feel like there's just a lot of overlap in abilities. The oGCD mana nukes for Dark Knight (both ST/AoE) feel fine, but essentially serve the same purpose as the secondary resource bar you get later. The difference being the secondary resource nukes (which have the exact same function basically) are just beefed up versions of those same abilities, except they take a GCD to use instead.

Black Mage is pretty similar with a lot of abilities feeling the same, and honestly you get to points where certain abilities are completely useless. While I'll take the "timewalking" in FF14 over the version we get in WoW, Black Mage feels absolutely awful if you're doing low level content, and it makes you drag out abilities that you basically never use. Not that the old content is difficult (especially dungeon content), but if you're doing savage raids or ultimate content in the older section of the game, it just feels trash to play.

I won't be ignorant and claim that every class is like this, but watching my GF play other DPS specs that I haven't listed, confirms that it's not isolated to these two classes that I solely play at the moment either. Dark Knight at least feels fine in the sense that nothing is obsolete, but Black Mage is at a really weird spot at certain junctures in the game. Going back and doing low level content as a Dark Knight kind of sucks, but at least I don't have to really 'think' about it. I'm going to guess there's a lot of abilities that serve the same purpose on a lot of classes in this game, which is fine, but I wouldn't necessarily call that great design either. It's kind of like having a fire spell on your bar that just costs a GCD to cast, and having another fire spell on your bar that's slightly stronger but has a 30 second CD.

In summary most classes in FF14 probably don't have a true 15 button rotation. More like half a dozen, or slightly more. It would be sort of like WoW of old where you put everything into one button and mash the shit out of it, and then claim that you have a 15 button rotation. FF14 is sort of like that, but you basically just weave these oGCD abilities between your GCD abilities, and that's basically it. If you sit down and understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, it starts to make sense.

My issue with FF14 combat is that it just feels really rigid to play from a combat perspective.