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  1. #141
    Imo, in principle WoW and FF14 combat both go towards two extremes. WoW goes more towards the fewer buttons / very proc-heavy combat. This makes for a more engaged and reactive gameplay on the one hand, but takes control away from the player on the other hand. What you do depends more on RNG than you actually playing. One example from when last I played would be the SoC procs on my monk early in SL. It was such a huge boost for aoe damage. If it procced in the exact right time when you had to burst down some aoe mobs, it could trivialize the mechanic for your group. Without any proc, on the other hand, your aoe damage in that phase was just lackluster.
    FF14 goes more into the direction of player control and creates difficulty with a lot of buttons. The rotation can be very stiff and is more influenced by the boss and its mechanics (e.g. invulnerabilities, movement etc) than procs on the player. The advantage over the WoW system is obviously that it gives the player more control. However, it makes for a less engaged gameplay and causes button bloat.

    Of course, such things vary from class to class, and there are other variables (e.g. extra resources). I personally see good things on both sides, and am happy that one is not a 1:1 copy of the other.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

    While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

    This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

    None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

    I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.
    FFXIV jobs all have utility as well, and I'm not trying to dissect your wall of text so that's about all I'm typing

  3. #143
    So I play MNK and lower level AST. MNK is basically six buttons as part of your normal rotation. You then get your burst window that changes your rotation (bust still the same abilities) for 6 GCDs. Beyond that you juggle a mini rotation right before your big burst window. It takes a minute to learn but once you realize how it works its really easy.

    AST for me so far is throw HoTs on group, AoE heal if need be, and juggle cards and then toss cards to the appropriate party members. It's actually really simple and a lot of fun. Oh, and pre-pull shield the group.

    Honestly, the combat in FFXIV is far more engaging and realizes class fantasy far better in rotation. At least IMO.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    FFXIV jobs all have utility as well, and I'm not trying to dissect your wall of text so that's about all I'm typing
    Then don't make the argument if you're not prepared to defend it. I also never said FF14 jobs don't have utility.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Then don't make the argument if you're not prepared to defend it. I also never said FF14 jobs don't have utility.
    I played WoW for 15 years, and have every FFXIV job over 70, so it is IN MY OPINION that going through rotations isn't wildy different. I don't give a shit about winning some stupid argument on MMOC, so if you want to strut around like a peacock because you can type 500 word responses, then go ahead. Nobody cares.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I played WoW for 15 years, and have every FFXIV job over 70, so it is IN MY OPINION that going through rotations isn't wildy different. I don't give a shit about winning some stupid argument on MMOC, so if you want to strut around like a peacock because you can type 500 word responses, then go ahead. Nobody cares.
    Winning? It's called having a discussion. If you aren't interested that's fine and since you don't like well constructed detailed arguments I'll keep this short rather than refute each of your points.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Winning? It's called having a discussion. If you aren't interested that's fine and since you don't like well constructed detailed arguments I'll keep this short rather than refute each of your points.
    Bro, I wrote like a two sentence post that said WoW's and FFXIV's are not all that different and you gave 4 paragraphs breaking down how Ret (lol k) is so complicated, even using BoP as a reason for how complex the rotation (wut) is. If that's how you discuss things in real life, people probably say ok and walk away there as well.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a Ret Main (snipping an older post I made circa BfA, but still relevant):

    While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

    This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

    None of this exists in FF14 due to its rigid rotations and play patterns, especially in the melee space. Sure you can ignore ALL of these optimizations and just mash the glowing buttons as they come off CD, but that's the floor of the class, not the ceiling.

    I think there's a lot of room to optimize and prune some of the existing classes and free up some hotbar space without it being too egregious. If anything I'd argue WoW pruned too much, and FF14 isn't pruning enough.
    doesnt basically all of that exist for bard.
    1) Don't cap Holy Power = dont sit at 100 of your lame bar
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs = 2/3 of your songs give procs the same as this, 1 speeds the rotation
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff = maintain dots to keep damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges = nothing, bard doesnt have 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack) = this is just a rotation, same as bard
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack = all bard songs provide a changing rotation

    add in the party wide buffs bard can push. the defensive cd's it can give, movement speed, etc. all pretty much what you listed.

    pretty much the same for red mage as well, proc based priority that changes rotation, utility in the form of healing and rezzing.

    same for summoner, just less rezz.
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2021-09-03 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    And why would that be the case with "any MMO"?
    If you ignore what the abilities actually do and break it down into "press one skill after the other" that's...literally how every MMO plays. The engagement for combos is in what the skills/combos do...going back to SAM, I mentioned 3 combos. Combo 1 needs to be used from the rear and puts up a buff. Combo 2 needs to be used from the flank and provides a separate buff. Combo 3 is a shorter combo and thus can be prioritized higher if you need to use a 1 sen finisher (which puts up a DoT). It is also not uncommon to "pause" a combo to use a non-combo breaking ability, then "resume" it. You're simplifying it down to make an argument and, in doing so, are spreading disinformation. If you don't find that engaging, cool, but it is clearly more than just pressing one button after the other in sequence.
    Disliking your favorite game
    Why is that always the assumption when people try to argue something? FFXIV isn't even my favorite MMO, let alone my favorite game. I have voiced disapproval of a lot of things in the Megathread. I just don't like the spread of bad information.


    To get the discussion back on track, ability bloat is definitely a problem in FFXIV but removing combos isn't the right decision. It would eliminate what engagement combat does have. I would instead look at reducing unnecessary cooldowns (some tanks have like 3-4 mitigation CDs alone) and utility. They could also not have so many ~30s+ oGCDs and instead just have 1-2 oGCDs on shorter cooldowns.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Bro, I wrote like a two sentence post that said WoW's and FFXIV's are not all that different and you gave 4 paragraphs breaking down how Ret (lol k) is so complicated, even using BoP as a reason for how complex the rotation (wut) is. If that's how you discuss things in real life, people probably say ok and walk away there as well.
    Proof that you didn't read my post. I never once said Ret was complicated. In fact, I explicitly stated it wasn't complicated. I said it was deep and had synergy, which is fairly different than other melee oriented experiences in FF14 which are shallow, binary, and rigid (not bad things on their own in a vacuum), but it's why I believe it to be not as similar as you're saying.

    I also never said BoP has anything to do with rotational complexity. I merely pointed out that in addition to the items I have to consider (as a measure of decision fatigue), there are also utility items, that require me to actively view 19 other players situations with varying degrees of intensity.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    doesnt basically all of that exist for bard.
    1) Don't cap Holy Power = dont sit at 100 of your lame bar
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs = 2/3 of your songs give procs the same as this, 1 speeds the rotation
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff = maintain dots to keep damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges = nothing, bard doesnt have 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack) = this is just a rotation, same as bard
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack = all bard songs provide a changing rotation

    add in the party wide buffs bard can push. the defensive cd's it can give, movement speed, etc. all pretty much what you listed.

    pretty much the same for red mage as well, proc based priority that changes rotation, utility in the form of healing and rezzing.

    same for summoner, just less rezz.
    Agreed wholeheartedly for BRD and why I very frequently recommend it to WoW refugees due to it being one of the most similar experiences IMO. It's also why I tend to feel it's one of the best designed jobs. I also specifically called out in my post melee experiences (which would exclude BRD/RDM), as you can see I largely agree there.

  11. #151
    Most of them are but I don't think # of buttons adds or reduces complexity that much. DH has less buttons but is more complex than any of the FFXIV jobs imo.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Albertacanady View Post
    Most of them are but I don't think # of buttons adds or reduces complexity that much. DH has less buttons but is more complex than any of the FFXIV jobs imo.
    There's nothing about DH that's complex?

  13. #153
    This is only a problem from WoW players used to small rotations. I hear that coming from them in every mmo that has more abilities, which is a lot of them now. But, players from the game themselves don't think it's a problem and when things are reduced they consider it a dumbing down of the game.

    I am in that camp. Even though WoW's system uses some rng in combat, which imo is a good thing unlike in other aspects of the game, the fact is, the rotations are incredibly simple 3-4 button affairs.
    I like how other mmo's have more abilities, more animations, challenge me more by trying to perfectly pull off a rotation while avoiding certain death. It is certainly more engaging to me and looks way cooler.

    I mean, must i compare Blade of Wrath from WoW Paladin to the upcoming Endwalker Paladin confeteor combo? One certainly is more satisfying to pull off.
    Hecks, only reason my Ret is still enjoyable in WoW is cause i have to juggle 5-6 cooldowns every minute atm, which actually is a lot like the requisciat window in FF.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-09-27 at 11:43 AM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I am in that camp. Even though WoW's system uses some rng in combat, which imo is a good thing unlike in other aspects of the game, the fact is, the rotations are incredibly simple 3-4 button affairs.
    Simple to execute, difficult to master. I'd argue that's nearly identical for FF14, at least in my experience. WoW has a lot more synergy and depth inside those 3-4 buttons though than FF14 does across it's 12+.

    I like how other mmo's have more abilities, more animations, challenge me more by trying to perfectly pull off a rotation while avoiding certain death. It is certainly more engaging to me and looks way cooler.
    I'm also a big fan of all of these things. I like more abilities and animations too. I also like to be challenged to perform my best and I absolutely agree FF14 is a much prettier game with respect to animations (subjective though).

    I mean, must i compare Blade of Wrath from WoW Paladin to the upcoming Endwalker Paladin confeteor combo? One certainly is more satisfying to pull off.
    Hecks, only reason my Ret is still enjoyable in WoW is cause i have to juggle 5-6 cooldowns every minute atm, which actually is a lot like the requisciat window in FF.
    For sure. Confiteor and it's associated moves are easily one of the most gorgeous spectacles in MMO gaming. I've said it before. I always wanted the FFT Holy Knight archetype (and when we got Blade of Wrath I was pumped even though everyone else thought Exo was better??!?). So I'm very happy.

    Now with that said though. I don't know what these abilities will do in Endwalker. They might just be really pretty no effect filler damage which would be depressing. There's speculation that the final hit extends Goring DoT or creates a new DoT, but even that's pretty boring, especially considering it's a fixed rotation, like it has been.

    Blade of Wrath on the other hand has resource management, proc resets, and a option to stack crit/DoT management (they don't roll btw like the old WotLK set bonus). That's a lot more interaction and depth than Confiteorx4, even if it's undeniably and stunningly gorgeous to execute.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Albertacanady View Post
    Most of them are but I don't think # of buttons adds or reduces complexity that much. DH has less buttons but is more complex than any of the FFXIV jobs imo.
    Have you played any of them at lvl80? Ninja is almost impossible to play for most people.
    A simple job like Red Mage is about the same difficulty as most WoW specs.

  16. #156
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Play a healer and you can get mad when people make you press anything other than your two DPS buttons and a few OGCD heals.

  17. #157
    I've only really played Bard, Ninja, and Monk (very little).

    Ninja is really easy. One "main combo" rotation with a big burst window every 45 seconds or so with the Mudra/Trick Attack setup.

    Bard is more or less keeping up dots/group buffs and reacting to procs.

    Monk is maybe 7-8 but it's in 3 button repeating combos that you do to maintain buffs and debuffs. The only thing I don't like (probably because I'm just not used to it) is positionals. Monk has a lot of those.

    This is all at a very basic understanding of the game though. Not savage raiding experience.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Play a healer and you can get mad when people make you press anything other than your two DPS buttons and a few OGCD heals.
    What do you mean im a Whitemage? Im closer to a Geomancer than a Whitemage thanks to the stone spam.

  19. #159
    All the people comparing to wow "rotations" makes me giggle. Wow doesnt have rotations anymore, they have whack-a-mole. Even if you have multiple skills for single target it is basically keep em all on cooldown and keep pushing. Most classes can be reduced to 2-3 buttons with an mmo mouse. The only class if FF that really feels like that is machinist which is 123 while keeping just about everything on cd.

    FF14 is simply more punishing because of how they rotations are put together and timed especially at endgame where the scripted fight times are very tight. Making sure everyone is on the same page lining up their cooldowns for the group bursts throughout the fight is hugely important. Missing one global can really hurt your overall and throw off the entirety of the fight. Not to mention you are doing all this while dodging mechanics that will likely one shot you and even if it doesn't you are hurting overall dps forcing a healer to waste time healing you instead of dpsing.

    One is not really harder than the other overall, they each have their own aspects and differ a lot. FF14 dps is honestly the hardest role to play correctly whereas wow it is the easiest. Wow focuses more on add mechanics and what you are dpsing while ff focuses more on perfect execution of mechanics as with smaller groups, one loss is the death of a group so personal accountability is huge. Wow healing is about pushing that HPS epeen, caring nothing about overhealing. Meanwhile dps is king in FF14 even for healers. Healers are judged on thier dps and did we die. No one gives a shit about hps.

    TLDR, they are both very different approaches to endgame and just comparing one aspect like dps rotations gives an extremely narrow view and is by no means reason enough for everyone to be so butthurt with the game vs game nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    What do you mean im a Whitemage? Im closer to a Geomancer than a Whitemage thanks to the stone spam.
    When you upgrade to glare/dia you'll be a white mage.

  20. #160
    Avoiding the FFXIV vs WoW topic and sticking with the rotation of Black Mage, I found this video (and all the ones he has for all the jobs) to be absolute Godsend. I hope you find it useful OP, I really enjoy that he takes his time to explain the function of the spells as you get them and as you get other spells/passives that modify existing spells. For me at least, it makes a massive difference in terms of getting my head around rotations, especially since I like jumping between 4 jobs like an idiot, instead of getting on with 1 (and the MSQ) first.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd7enFGv_qc

    Enjoy

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