Do you think the night elves were justified in their spying on the blood elves?

[OwenBurton]

Garithos was the one who drove Kael'thas from the Alliance. But Quel'Thalas remained neutral for several years - even rejecting Sylvanas when she reached out to them, after which the tauren sympathized with her people's condition and welcomed them into the Horde. But remember the real reason why the blood elves joined the Horde? That was only because the night elves' Sentinel spies had established a military base, and were spying on their activities while secretly sabotaging their arcane sanctums.

I want to analyze this controversy from BOTH sides, from the blood elves and the night elves' conflicting perspectives:

The blood elves (from their POV):

- We are still neutral. We have not attacked Darnassus or Kalimdor. We did not spy on your lands - or harm the night elf people. And yet you are here uninvited, intruding upon our sovereignty without any provocation.
- How dare the night elves judge us? After they banished our people from Kalimdor thousands of years ago - denying us our birthright and heritage? Tyrande and Malfurion no longer have absolutely ANY authority to interfere in our internal affairs.
- The night elves did nothing to assist us during the Third War, or afterwards. They briefly helped Kael'thas later on only out of mutual convenience. They did nothing to help us fight back the Scourge or prevent the genocide of our people. Why should we respect their concerns now?
- The night elves took advantage of our trust in the dwarves, our former allies, by sending Anvilward, as an "ambassador", adding insult to injury. They were self-righteous cowards to spurn our ancestors, and to fear even facing or communicating with us directly. They are truly without dignity and honor. Never again will we tolerate being betrayed or manipulated, not by anyone or anything.

The night elves (from their POV):

- Kael'thas allied with the naga, our ancient and hated enemies - and killed some Alliance members while escaping, despite Tyrande and Malfurion assisting him earlier in the Eastern Kingdoms.
- We have helped the quel'dorei in the past during the Long Vigil, despite our differences. For example, Emmarel went to assist Talanas Windrunner. And Shandris Feathermoon fought beside Areiel several thousand years ago.
- The blood elves are Dath'Remar's people, and we still feel personal responsibility for their wrongful actions, as their ancestors were of our people. True, he assisted Lady Tyrande. But he and his Highborne still helped her summon the portal for the Legion, destroying countless lives and causing the Sundering. Who knows what second calamity could result from reckless use of magic, so soon after the Third War? We cannot forget how Illidan, another ally of the naga, nearly destroyed parts of the world when he attacked the Lich King from Dalaran Crater. Our duty now is to preserve the balance in all of Azeroth after the loss of our ancient immortality, and Nordrassil's near-destruction.
- The blood elves are consumed by bitter anger and hatred -- they are irrational, unstable, unpredictable and have callously exiled even the high elves, their own kin, from their lands, simply because they refuse to drain energies from mana wryms. We see them as emotionally damaged arcane addicts, who practice even darker and more dangerous magics - unlike we who resolutely shun both schools. We cannot risk them hurting others or themselves. We must keep a close eye upon them.
- Everyone spies on everyone else. The blood elves killing a couple of spies without negotiation or dialogue, spies who were not at first openly aggressive, is akin to Stormwind humans killing Cenarion Circle agents who quietly spy in their city, understandable, perhaps, but a very harsh and excessive move. Our people and the Alliance were not officially enemies to the blood elves, as Silvermoon was not then part of the Horde, and so they essentially attacked a neutral party, even if we were spying upon them.
- Of course, the Azuremyst Isle storyline. The night elves were the reason the draenei joined the Alliance. No doubt the draenei also informed them about the blood elves sabotaging the Exodar and thereby killing even more of their already near-extinct people, further spreading doubt and suspicion against their kin. But the exact timeline of events is very vague and unclear. However, Chronicle lists draenei joining the Alliance via the night elves, in the section immediately before blood elves joining Horde via Sylvanas.

Notes:
- Tyrande might not have sent the Sentinel spies. Fandral might have sent the expedition - as an Archdruid of the Cenarion Circle, he might have viewed the blood elves and their activities with deep mistrust and particular disgust, and using his long-standing and considerable influence in night elf society, quietly arranged the Sentinel spies, without informing her or the other Alliance leaders.
- The blood elves seemed neutral towards the night elves prior to this incident. Kael'thas was not hostile to Tyrande and Malfurion when he encountered them, nor they towards him. In Blood of the Highborne, the night elves are mentioned without hostility several times, one blood elf even declaring they were right regarding arcane magic use after the Sunwell was tainted. And towards the end, Liadrin hesitated and quietly mentioned that their kaldorei cousins would be surprised, after Lor'themar informed her he was negotiating membership with the Horde, to which he replied that times change and people change.

[Vaedan]

I have my own theory about that.

By the time blood elf introduction storyline begins, Draenei story already happened.
- Blood elves already have Naaru captured in Tempest Keep. They already learned how to siphon Light from it and established Blood Knight order.
- Draenei storyline happened shortly after Sunfury sabotaged them and kidnapped Mu'ru.

By that time, Draenei are already part of the Alliance, they already knew blood elves are in league with demons (conclussion of Bloodmyst is killing of Eredar who commands blood elves). They don't know that elves in Quel'thalas are unaware of their Prince's new allegience. It's also the time when high elves were exiled for refusing draining mana from living beings.

It is possible that night elves learned that blood elves allied with demons and started with dangerous magical practises. That alone might be enough for night elves to check on blood elves and learn about them. Night elves were extremely cautious of Legion's return, so blood elves meddling with dangerous magic was probably issue for them.

On the other hand, they probably should only watch from afar and stay away from any confrontation and sabotage. From blood elf PoV, I don't see anything bad in dealing with these night elves.

[Tarba]

It's only gameplay reason. Else them joining the horde is as retarded as them joining the alliance and as retarded as forsaken joining the horde.
A third faction forsaken, bloodelves, and actual draeney (not the space russian octopus) would have make sense.

[Ardenaso]

they could've just sent an emissary to Lor'themar "hey bruh what the fuck are your own people doing in Azuremyst? do something about it" instead of sabotaging their sanctums that were vital to their survival

[Aresk]

I think both were perfectly valid. The night elves have every reason to spy on the blood elves given the events of Bloodmyst. The blood elves have every right to drive night elves from their lands. There is clearly conflict here, but given what each side knew, I thought their actions seemed reasonable. I think the whole situation could've been avoided with open communication and trust, but at that point the only established relationship they had (that of Malf/Tyrande with Kael'thas) would've deteriorated. Turning to a dwarven ambassador makes sense to gather additional intel in an official compacity while continuing to perform reconnaissance with the spies.

[Drindorai]

Not at the time. It was a gameplay excuse to give for why the Alliance is bad. Which is something Blizzard seems to do only whenever they want a faction to join the Horde. The Alliance acts weirdly aggressively amoral toward a 'neutral' race for no apparent reason, said race joins the Horde, and that is never brought up again.

Happens with the Blood Elves --- Night Elves randomly spying on them and sabotaging (or trying to) their runes for no reason. Never brought up again.

Happens with Goblins --- Alliance navy intercepts Thrall on the way to the Maelstrom to help with the Cataclysm even knowing what he was going to do, presumably just because he was the former Warchief? Never brought up again.

Happens with the Nightborne --- Despite Tyrande and the Night Elves showing up to help in Suramar, Tyrande suggests a rude thing toward Thalyssra once and so she and the Nightborne jump full into the Horde and then promptly help them destroy Teldrassil. The hypocrisy there is never noted by Tyrande.

I guess in retrospect, Tyrande and the Night Elves were correct in distrusting the Blood Elves. Considering they, like the Nightborne, help the Horde in committing genocide against them.

I wish the Alliance bothered to actually be ruthless outside of just being used as an excuse for a race to join the Horde and then said ruthlessness is never mentioned again.

[sam86]

its way too old and minor to focus on it now
i think nelf were wrong there, but wow story moved so far away from this that it makes it meaningless whoever was wrong

[melzas]

Not at the time. It was a gameplay excuse to give for why the Alliance is bad. Which is something Blizzard seems to do only whenever they want a faction to join the Horde. The Alliance acts weirdly aggressively amoral toward a 'neutral' race for no apparent reason, said race joins the Horde, and that is never brought up again.

Happens with the Blood Elves --- Night Elves randomly spying on them and sabotaging (or trying to) their runes for no reason. Never brought up again.

Happens with Goblins --- Alliance navy intercepts Thrall on the way to the Maelstrom to help with the Cataclysm even knowing what he was going to do, presumably just because he was the former Warchief? Never brought up again.

Happens with the Nightborne --- Despite Tyrande and the Night Elves showing up to help in Suramar, Tyrande suggests a rude thing toward Thalyssra once and so she and the Nightborne jump full into the Horde and then promptly help them destroy Teldrassil. The hypocrisy there is never noted by Tyrande.

I guess in retrospect, Tyrande and the Night Elves were correct in distrusting the Blood Elves. Considering they, like the Nightborne, help the Horde in committing genocide against them.

I wish the Alliance bothered to actually be ruthless outside of just being used as an excuse for a race to join the Horde and then said ruthlessness is never mentioned again.

Hah, man you are right. This also happens with vulpera with alliance burning down their shit only because "they kinda worked with horde a bit". What a shitty pattern.

[Pheraz]

It's only gameplay reason. Else them joining the horde is as retarded as them joining the alliance and as retarded as forsaken joining the horde.
A third faction forsaken, bloodelves, and actual draeney (not the space russian octopus) would have make sense.

What this man/woman said!

They feared too much fractioning of the playerbase and thus only muhhhh honor horde and muhhhh baby lions alliance happened. Really horrible from lore/atmosphere but here we are. Maybe they just remove the factions in the future and only let it happen in battlegrounds and warmode and we are done with this "chapter" of red vs blue.

Night elves in the alliance even make less sense than undead in the horde, imo. Blood elves in oggrimar are also very very very strange.

On topic, ofc I support night elves! It's always good to be ahead of those little, blonde squirrels ;D

[sighy]

Not at the time. It was a gameplay excuse to give for why the Alliance is bad. Which is something Blizzard seems to do only whenever they want a faction to join the Horde. The Alliance acts weirdly aggressively amoral toward a 'neutral' race for no apparent reason, said race joins the Horde, and that is never brought up again.

Happens with the Blood Elves --- Night Elves randomly spying on them and sabotaging (or trying to) their runes for no reason. Never brought up again.

Happens with Goblins --- Alliance navy intercepts Thrall on the way to the Maelstrom to help with the Cataclysm even knowing what he was going to do, presumably just because he was the former Warchief? Never brought up again.

Happens with the Nightborne --- Despite Tyrande and the Night Elves showing up to help in Suramar, Tyrande suggests a rude thing toward Thalyssra once and so she and the Nightborne jump full into the Horde and then promptly help them destroy Teldrassil. The hypocrisy there is never noted by Tyrande.

I guess in retrospect, Tyrande and the Night Elves were correct in distrusting the Blood Elves. Considering they, like the Nightborne, help the Horde in committing genocide against them.

I wish the Alliance bothered to actually be ruthless outside of just being used as an excuse for a race to join the Horde and then said ruthlessness is never mentioned again.

Could say that about literally every single Horde race outside of the Tauren and HM tauren.
Thrall's whole journey towards re-founding the Horde was founded on his grudge against Blackmoore
Darkspear joined because of Naga and Daelin Proudmoore
Forsaken joined, because of their mutual conflict of interests with humans

Tyrande's characterisation has always been perplexing, but i can't say that letting her mouth run or being racist is terribly out of character for her, at this point. That said her flip flops can be rather jarring. (Nightborne were also aware of the whole penality of death for using magic decree Tyrande and Malf had until fairly recently comparably speaking)

[Rockefellah]

I have my own theory about that.

By the time blood elf introduction storyline begins, Draenei story already happened.
- Blood elves already have Naaru captured in Tempest Keep. They already learned how to siphon Light from it and established Blood Knight order.
- Draenei storyline happened shortly after Sunfury sabotaged them and kidnapped Mu'ru.

By that time, Draenei are already part of the Alliance, they already knew blood elves are in league with demons (conclussion of Bloodmyst is killing of Eredar who commands blood elves). They don't know that elves in Quel'thalas are unaware of their Prince's new allegience. It's also the time when high elves were exiled for refusing draining mana from living beings.

It is possible that night elves learned that blood elves allied with demons and started with dangerous magical practises. That alone might be enough for night elves to check on blood elves and learn about them. Night elves were extremely cautious of Legion's return, so blood elves meddling with dangerous magic was probably issue for them.

On the other hand, they probably should only watch from afar and stay away from any confrontation and sabotage. From blood elf PoV, I don't see anything bad in dealing with these night elves.

I think this is a great contribution to the discussion. It still puts the night elves in the wrong. They should have send an ambassador informing/inquiring the Blood Elves leadership about the discovery on Azuremyst. While relations would still be tense if/when its discovered Quel'thalas is also draining a Naaru - but it would have prevented direct hostilities and sending the Blood Elves to the Horde. Rather it could have happened that the formation of the Shattered Sun Offensive would have sped up, and prevented the legion mini invasion.

[Tanaria]

The Blood Elves, 100%.

The night elves illegally invaded and attacked the denizens of a neutral city, at a time when said city and nation were downtrodden.
They could have easily helped the Blood Elves deal with the Scourge and the Amani, but no - they chose to go on the offensive.

As the above said - an Ambassador, maybe a Priestess sent by Tyrande, could have engaged with the Blood Elves and inform them what happened on Azuremyst, but instead - the Alliance saw red and sent a hostile party. Ironically, the night elves pushed the blood elves to Sylvanas, which is quite funny when we think about it.

[sighy]

I think this is a great contribution to the discussion. It still puts the night elves in the wrong. They should have send an ambassador informing/inquiring the Blood Elves leadership about the discovery on Azuremyst. While relations would still be tense if/when its discovered Quel'thalas is also draining a Naaru - but it would have prevented direct hostilities and sending the Blood Elves to the Horde. Rather it could have happened that the formation of the Shattered Sun Offensive would have sped up, and prevented the legion mini invasion.

TBC lore in WoW.exe was not the strongsuit of the game, at the time. Blood Elves, including Scryers wierdly enough don't know of Kael's dealing with the Legion, until like Netherstorm. (The whole Blelf PoV in outland is very wierd given your intent being going to Outland to reunite with Kael, until you join his opposition right away, for no reason way before you learn of anything Legion and we know that Silvermoon directly benefitted from the sacking of Tempest Keep)

[Ardenaso]

Not at the time. It was a gameplay excuse to give for why the Alliance is bad. Which is something Blizzard seems to do only whenever they want a faction to join the Horde. The Alliance acts weirdly aggressively amoral toward a 'neutral' race for no apparent reason, said race joins the Horde, and that is never brought up again.

Happens with the Blood Elves --- Night Elves randomly spying on them and sabotaging (or trying to) their runes for no reason. Never brought up again.

Happens with Goblins --- Alliance navy intercepts Thrall on the way to the Maelstrom to help with the Cataclysm even knowing what he was going to do, presumably just because he was the former Warchief? Never brought up again.

Happens with the Nightborne --- Despite Tyrande and the Night Elves showing up to help in Suramar, Tyrande suggests a rude thing toward Thalyssra once and so she and the Nightborne jump full into the Horde and then promptly help them destroy Teldrassil. The hypocrisy there is never noted by Tyrande.

I guess in retrospect, Tyrande and the Night Elves were correct in distrusting the Blood Elves. Considering they, like the Nightborne, help the Horde in committing genocide against them.

I wish the Alliance bothered to actually be ruthless outside of just being used as an excuse for a race to join the Horde and then said ruthlessness is never mentioned again.

to be fair no gameplay excuse needed; the Alliance never bothered to help Quel'thalas in Classic and it's the Horde who helped the Blood Elves and saved them from the Amani/Wretched/Scourge threat, surely they will join those who gave them another chance in life - even more in spite of those who left them for dead

[Luler]

Well the blood elves did just side with their ancient enemies (the naga) AND the Betrayer so keeping tabs on those sort of sketchy people is not bad on their part, especially with what happened in the draenei starting zone.

Though the sabotage part just seems like a really lazy way of saying "SEE? ALLIANCE = BAD NOW WE JOIN HORDE"

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

It was above all an excuse for the Blood Elves to join the Horde.

Of course realistically it would make perfect sense for the Alliance to have spies to see what the Blood Elves are doing and their various methods and abilities and if they aren't keeping secrets. After all it's something that every country and ruler do, and the Elves of Quel'Thalas had been aloof and ungrateful allies by the past who barely lifted their fingers for their human allies until it was their turn to be invaded by the Horde and who left the Alliance while blaming them for what happened to their kingdom during the 2nd War, even if it was largely the result of their own attitude and that the humans still came to save them.

[Ardenaso]

Night Elves in the Alliance is what didn't make sense. The Night Elves had no reason to join the Alliance, there was no benefit for them and no concessions from the part of the Alliance to make them comfortable - They were kind of just shoved in there as a "generically good" race, and is where the solid foundation of "Alliance = Good, Horde = Bad" comes from. The best explanation they had for Night Elves joining the Alliance was "They don't like Orcs" but such an explanation doesn't work considering they ALSO didn't like Humans or Dwarves, and had a lot longer exposure to those two to solidify such a dislike.

considering that the Night Elves lost their immortality and they're now susceptible to disease, weakness, whatnot, and the Warsong Clan continued to illegally harvest lumber in Ashenvale despite the Night Elves and Orcs making peace at the end of WC3; the Night Elves can only ask for help with the Alliance

but yes I'd prefer if it was 4 factions instead of just 2

[Eggroll]

Spying in itself? Not bad. Never trust an addict.

And don't blow a little friction out of proportion.

As the Fourth War proved: the Night Elves are only an ally of convenience, it's a one way street, only benefitting the humans.

[Fabled]

It's only gameplay reason. Else them joining the horde is as retarded as them joining the alliance and as retarded as forsaken joining the horde.
A third faction forsaken, bloodelves, and actual draeney (not the space russian octopus) would have make sense.

I'm sorry, "actual draenei" ? You mean the Broken Ones? Broken are Draenei that mutated after being exposed to Fel energies. There's only a small amount that aren't full-on bat-shit crazy or aren't already enslaved. The Kurenai on the Outlands and the Krokul on Argus are both Alliance affiliated right out the game because both times the Draenei/the Alliance player went out to help them, even that small hovel in the Swamp of Sorrows was helped by the Draenei/the Alliance player.

As for the actual topic, I'm sure the Night Elves themselves would feel justified just in the fact that the Blood Elves used to be allies in some form to the Alliance, it'd be like snooping around a recent ex just to see what they were up to.

[Ardenaso]

I'm sorry, "actual draenei" ? You mean the Broken Ones? Broken are Draenei that mutated after being exposed to Fel energies. There's only a small amount that aren't full-on bat-shit crazy or aren't already enslaved. The Kurenai on the Outlands and the Krokul on Argus are both Alliance affiliated right out the game because both times the Draenei/the Alliance player went out to help them, even that small hovel in the Swamp of Sorrows was helped by the Draenei/the Alliance player.

no the pre-retcon Draenei, the so-called "Lost Ones"