Do you think the night elves were justified in their spying on the blood elves?

[sighy]

Well the blood elves did just side with their ancient enemies (the naga) AND the Betrayer so keeping tabs on those sort of sketchy people is not bad on their part, especially with what happened in the draenei starting zone.

Though the sabotage part just seems like a really lazy way of saying "SEE? ALLIANCE = BAD NOW WE JOIN HORDE"

To be fair nobody was familiar with the NAga back then. They literally had to spell it out to Maiev and nobody knew they even existed until Illidan called on them.

[Ardenaso]

To be fair nobody was familiar with the NAga back then. They literally had to spell it out to Maiev and nobody knew they even existed until Illidan called on them.

Thrall and the Horde fought Zar'jira in Reign of Chaos

[Tanaria]

Spying in itself? Not bad. Never trust an addict.

And don't blow a little friction out of proportion.

As the Fourth War proved: the Night Elves are only an ally of convenience, it's a one way street, only benefitting the humans.

Oh please.

Spying and acting hostile on the resident Blood Elves. The Night Elves were clearly being racist and illegally invading a land that they had no business going to.

If they are that concerned about users of fel magic, maybe they need to talk to the Humans and Gnomes first, before they start marching on the poor Sin'dorei who were still recovering from the Third War events and dealing with the Scourge, Amani and now night elves.

[Steelangel]

Happens with the Nightborne --- Despite Tyrande and the Night Elves showing up to help in Suramar, Tyrande suggests a rude thing toward Thalyssra once and so she and the Nightborne jump full into the Horde and then promptly help them destroy Teldrassil. The hypocrisy there is never noted by Tyrande.

Of any story or lore failure that happened in WoW's entire history, the Nightborne joining the Horde post-Legion was the biggest one.

Thalyssra said at the end of the "Air Superiority" world quest in Suramar:

I will see to it that the Nighborne end their long isolation as defenders of Azeroth, not conquerors

And less than a few in-game months later they joined the Horde---whose first post-Legion action was to commit genocide against the Night Elves. The Horde did to the Night Elves no different than Elisande's forces did to the Moon Guard, and there was NO repercussion from the Nightborne. No one said anything.

The entire character of Thalyssra was ruined. The entire storyline of Suramar was for NOTHING from an Alliance perspective.

Unless Thalyssra was a lying sack of shit from the beginning and used her guile to trap Elisande into taking the Legion's power and lowering the shield, only too-late realizing that she screwed up and went looking for help, in which case she belongs in the Horde.

[Tanaria]

Of any story or lore failure that happened in WoW's entire history, the Nightborne joining the Horde post-Legion was the biggest one.

Thalyssra said at the end of the "Air Superiority" world quest in Suramar:



And less than a few in-game months later they joined the Horde---whose first post-Legion action was to commit genocide against the Night Elves. The Horde did to the Night Elves no different than Elisande's forces did to the Moon Guard, and there was NO repercussion from the Nightborne. No one said anything.

The entire character of Thalyssra was ruined. The entire storyline of Suramar was for NOTHING from an Alliance perspective.

Unless Thalyssra was a lying sack of shit from the beginning and used her guile to trap Elisande into taking the Legion's power and lowering the shield, only too-late realizing that she screwed up and went looking for help, in which case she belongs in the Horde.

Just like Horde helping out the Lightforged Draenei - only for them to jump over to team Blue.

Hell, if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, then the whole expansion would have been the standard racist stereotype of the Horde. Second class. Around for convenience. Group of thugs - let the civilized races sort this.

[chrisisvacant]

Blood Elves in the Horde makes absolute sense considering, at the time, Horde were morally questionable and generally had a far more sinister vibe (forsaken, voodoo, bloodthirst). Only the more human-like orcs and the tauren were "normal" back then. Magic-addicted elves with an arrogant streak a mile long are much more Horde-like than not.

Nightborne being in the newer Horde also makes sense. Not only are they very much outcasts from all elven society, they are far more similar to the blood elves than the night elves who look positively primitive by comparison. Obviously, Lightforged Draenei would not at all join the Horde when their non-lightforged brethren are right there in the Alliance.

What's weird are Vulpera in the Horde, who feel very much out of place with their cutesy aesthetic. Would've made much more sense to either bring Kul Tirans to the Horde or the sneks who could've had interesting counterplay with the similarly-devout Tauren.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Of any story or lore failure that happened in WoW's entire history, the Nightborne joining the Horde post-Legion was the biggest one.

Thalyssra said at the end of the "Air Superiority" world quest in Suramar:



And less than a few in-game months later they joined the Horde---whose first post-Legion action was to commit genocide against the Night Elves. The Horde did to the Night Elves no different than Elisande's forces did to the Moon Guard, and there was NO repercussion from the Nightborne. No one said anything.

The entire character of Thalyssra was ruined. The entire storyline of Suramar was for NOTHING from an Alliance perspective.

Unless Thalyssra was a lying sack of shit from the beginning and used her guile to trap Elisande into taking the Legion's power and lowering the shield, only too-late realizing that she screwed up and went looking for help, in which case she belongs in the Horde.

The quote defenders of Azeroth, not conquerors and it being used to justify the Nightborne joining the Horde was just so cringeworthy and dumb. Yes joining a faction far more prone and reknown for being barbaric, committing atrocities and led by an obviously malevolent and immensely cruel undead tyrant was acting as defender of the world.

[Vaedan]

Oh please.

Spying and acting hostile on the resident Blood Elves. The Night Elves were clearly being racist and illegally invading a land that they had no business going to.

If they are that concerned about users of fel magic, maybe they need to talk to the Humans and Gnomes first, before they start marching on the poor Sin'dorei who were still recovering from the Third War events and dealing with the Scourge, Amani and now night elves.

Well, at THAT time, blood elves were doing shady and suspicious stuff, way more shady then humans and gnomes did. There is no point denying that. On the other hand, as it was said previously, night elves could do it differently. We've learned they send help to thalassians in ages past (Shandris hinting at Areiel and Emmarel claiming to help high elves during Amani incursion as well), not to mention that Tyrande and Maiev helped sin'dorei in their mission in Silverpine just few years prior to these events. If they wanted to find out what's going on in Quel'thalas, they could send sentinels and druids as a help for blood elves, which could eventually observe Quel'thalas status and report to Tyrande/Fandral or whoever sent them (we will probably never find out).

So, I'd say both sides could do better job in communication, but blood elves killing night elves in the end is justified and these night elves got what they were asking for. I didn't have that much impression that this night elf incursion was that much of a problem actually. They caused trouble, but it always felt like a side problem to a bigger issue - rising threat of Deatholme and the traitor Dar'khan. Most of the Eversong/Ghostland experience was about finding means how to be in control of their thirst for magic and not turning into wretched and pushing back the Scourge, fighting night elves was just minor thing.

[Tanaria]

Well, at THAT time, blood elves were doing shady and suspicious stuff, way more shady then humans and gnomes did. There is no point denying that. On the other hand, as it was said previously, night elves could do it differently. We've learned they send help to thalassians in ages past (Shandris hinting at Areiel and Emmarel claiming to help high elves during Amani incursion as well), not to mention that Tyrande and Maiev helped sin'dorei in their mission in Silverpine just few years prior to these events. If they wanted to find out what's going on in Quel'thalas, they could send sentinels and druids as a help for blood elves, which could eventually observe Quel'thalas status and report to Tyrande/Fandral or whoever sent them (we will probably never find out).

So, I'd say both sides could do better job in communication, but blood elves killing night elves in the end is justified and these night elves got what they were asking for. I didn't have that much impression that this night elf incursion was that much of a problem actually. They caused trouble, but it always felt like a side problem to a bigger issue - rising threat of Deatholme and the traitor Dar'khan. Most of the Eversong/Ghostland experience was about finding means how to be in control of their thirst for magic and not turning into wretched and pushing back the Scourge, fighting night elves was just minor thing.

As a Blood Elf fan and looking at the situation with the Ghostlands, I personally think the Night Elves are 100% at fault.

The Sin'dorei were trying to get themselves back on their feet. The Amani, the Wretched and the Scourge were already big enough headaches and the last thing the Sin'dorei needed were Night Elves invading their land, attacking their people and setting up operations to disrupt the efforts needed for the residents to get back on their feet.

It's impressive that Dame Auriferous was able to coordinate both the night elf and Scourge issues accordingly and she didn't rush in.

[Feanoro]

Hell, if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, then the whole expansion would have been the standard racist stereotype of the Horde. Second class. Around for convenience. Group of thugs - let the civilized races sort this.

Imagine being this offended by nonexistent "racism" in a game. Can I assume you're equally offended by tree hugging elves, goofy drunk dwarves, and lawful stupid humans, or only the poor "oppressed" Horde?

As a Blood Elf fan and looking at the situation with the Ghostlands, I personally think the Night Elves are 100% at fault.

Yes, we know you ignore anything that paints the BElves in a bad light, including canon sources that make it clear both sides weren't entirely right. Before you ask, sorry I'm not going through the exercise of pasting WoWhead links and quest text again. Last time you shooed it away by the power of headcanon.

It's very typical Hordie behavior. Complain that Alliance is "goody two shoes" and "boring" all the while denying Horde is anything but innocent choir boys.

[Hitei]

Oh please.

Spying and acting hostile on the resident Blood Elves. The Night Elves were clearly being racist and illegally invading a land that they had no business going to.

If they are that concerned about users of fel magic, maybe they need to talk to the Humans and Gnomes first, before they start marching on the poor Sin'dorei who were still recovering from the Third War events and dealing with the Scourge, Amani and now night elves.

Kinda amusing that you frame the Night Elves as "invading a land they had no business going to" because they were spying and sabotaged some things, and also call them racist...
And in the same post frame the Blood Elves as victims having to "deal with" the Amani. Like you do realize the High Elves also had no business literally invading the Amani Empire, and they hated the trolls so much for fighting hard to defend their lands, that the High Elves would attack and kill them on sight , you know, literal genocide.

But yeah, the Night Elves were the big bad racist invaders.

[Feanoro]

Kinda amusing that you frame the Night Elves as "invading a land they had no business going to" because they were spying and sabotaged some things, and also call them racist...
And in the same post frame the Blood Elves as victims having to "deal with" the Amani. Like you do realize the High Elves also had no business literally invading the Amani Empire, and they hated the trolls so much for fighting hard to defend their lands, that the High Elves would attack and kill them on sight , you know, literal genocide.

But yeah, the Night Elves were the big bad racist invaders.

You're in for quite a display of mental gymnastics, hope you have popcorn ready!

[Tanaria]

Kinda amusing that you frame the Night Elves as "invading a land they had no business going to" because they were spying and sabotaged some things, and also call them racist...
And in the same post frame the Blood Elves as victims having to "deal with" the Amani. Like you do realize the High Elves also had no business literally invading the Amani Empire, and they hated the trolls so much for fighting hard to defend their lands, that the High Elves would attack and kill them on sight , you know, literal genocide.

But yeah, the Night Elves were the big bad racist invaders.

Yes they were.

And the business of what happened between the Highborne of old and the Amani is not the concern of the Sin'dorei.
After all, the Alliance said very little about Quel'Thalas belonging to the High Elves - so now, because Quel'Thalas is in the hands of the Horde, suddenly it's a problem?

I don't think so. Night Elves did wrong and they were rightfully slaughtered and sent packing by the Sin'dorei.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine being this offended by nonexistent "racism" in a game. Can I assume you're equally offended by tree hugging elves, goofy drunk dwarves, and lawful stupid humans, or only the poor "oppressed" Horde?

Yes, we know you ignore anything that paints the BElves in a bad light, including canon sources that make it clear both sides weren't entirely right. Before you ask, sorry I'm not going through the exercise of pasting WoWhead links and quest text again. Last time you shooed it away by the power of headcanon.

It's very typical Hordie behavior. Complain that Alliance is "goody two shoes" and "boring" all the while denying Horde is anything but innocent choir boys.

Aww - your still upset that Quel'Thalas doesn't belong to your "Human Potential" faction.
I mean, that's all the Alliance is. Just Humans and their servants.

And it is racism - you just don't want the poor pwetty night elves being shown in a bad light. Well, I will gladly fill that void and fill you in. Continue being racist against the Sin'dorei and I will continue pointing it out.

[Feanoro]

After all, the Alliance said very little about Quel'Thalas belonging to the High Elves - so now, because Quel'Thalas is in the hands of the Horde, suddenly it's a problem?

After all, the Alliance said very little about Quel'Thalas belonging to a friendly or neutral power - so now, because Quel'Thalas is in the hands of a hostile power that can and will use it at minimum as a staging point, suddenly it's a problem?

Hell yes it is to any commander with two brain cells.

Nice dodging on the BElves' hypocrisy.

[Hitei]

Yes they were.

And the business of what happened between the Highborne of old and the Amani is not the concern of the Sin'dorei.
After all, the Alliance said very little about Quel'Thalas belonging to the High Elves - so now, because Quel'Thalas is in the hands of the Horde, suddenly it's a problem?

I don't think so. Night Elves did wrong and they were rightfully slaughtered and sent packing by the Sin'dorei.

No, you dummy. What is this weird deflecting strawman?

I'm saying it's insane you'd type out the idea
"Night Elves are bad because this land belongs to the High Elves and they don't belong here, also they are racist."

When those same High Elves got that land in the first place by showing up someplace they didn't belong, hating the people who lived there and literally slaughtering them by the thousands so they could steal the ley-infused land from the people who had been living there since basically the beginning of sentient life on the world.

The High Elves did the exact same thing you are claiming the Night Elves are in the wrong for, only instead of blowing up a couple buildings and spying on people, they massacred an entire civilization and straight up stole the land. Yet you are pretending that the Amani were simply a problem they had to "deal with". If the Amani are just a problem for the High Elves, how are the High Elves not just a problem the Night Elves are (much, much less agressively) dealing with?

[Feanoro]

Aww - your still upset that Quel'Thalas doesn't belong to your "Human Potential" faction.
I mean, that's all the Alliance is. Just Humans and their servants.

Nope. Just annoyed by bad writing and virtue signaling over imaginary people.

@Hitei See what I mean? We're arguing with someone (hopefully, rather creepy if it's not) role playing a BElf, not discussing a story.

[Tanaria]

No, you dummy. What is this weird deflecting strawman?

I'm saying it's insane you'd type out the idea
"Night Elves are bad because this land belongs to the High Elves and they don't belong here, also they are racist."

When those same High Elves got that land in the first place by showing up someplace they didn't belong, hating the people who lived there and literally slaughtering them by the thousands so they could steal the ley-infused land from the people who had been living there since basically the beginning of sentient life on the world.

The High Elves did the exact same thing you are claiming the Night Elves are in the wrong for, only instead of blowing up a couple buildings and spying on people, they massacred an entire civilization and straight up stole the land. Yet you are pretending that the Amani were simply a problem they had to "deal with". If the Amani are just a problem for the High Elves, how are the High Elves not just a problem the Night Elves are (much, much less agressively) dealing with.

Actually, the Night Elves are bad because that land belongs to the Sin'dorei (Blood Elves) and outright attacked the residents.

And the land settlement was sorted 7000+ years ago. It belongs to the Sin'dorei (and still does.)

Night Elves had no business going, unless it was for peaceful negotiation.

Night Elves were racist and attacked the residents. They deserved to be put to the Sin'dorei sword, a thousand times over.

[Hitei]

Nope. Just annoyed by bad writing and virtue signaling over imaginary people.

@Hitei See what I mean? We're arguing with someone (hopefully, rather creepy if it's not) role playing a BElf, not discussing a story.

Yeah, I can see that.

[Tanaria]

Yeah, I can see that.

Reported.

If you can't debate then the MMo-Mods need to be involved.

I'm willing to debate, but if your calling me names (which is against the forum rules) then I will report. I don't resort to name-calling because if you do that, you have no argument.

[Hitei]

Reported.

If you can't debate then the MMo-Mods need to be involved.

I'm willing to debate, but if your calling me names (which is against the forum rules) then I will report. I don't resort to name-calling because if you do that, you have no argument.

You're not interested in a debate. You simply want to ignore literal facts in favor of screaming that the Blood Elves are totally innocent and the Night Elves are evil.
Allow me to show you why there's not going to be a debate.

Here is your post:

Actually, the Night Elves are bad because that land belongs to the Sin'dorei (Blood Elves) and outright attacked the residents.

And the land settlement was sorted 7000+ years ago. It belongs to the Sin'dorei (and still does.)

Night Elves had no business going, unless it was for peaceful negotiation.

Night Elves were racist and attacked the residents. They deserved to be put to the Sin'dorei sword, a thousand times over.

Here is your post again, with accurate facts from the game's lore.

Actually, the Blood Elves (formerly named High Elves) are bad because that land belongs to the Amani (Trolls) and outright attacked the residents.

And the land settlement was sorted 16,000+ years ago. It belongs to the Amani (and still does.)

Blood Elves had no business going, unless it was for peaceful negotiation.

Blood Elves were racist and attempted a genocide against the residents. They deserved to be put to the Amani sword, a thousand times over.

Do you see how the Blood Elves are quite literally the same as the Night Elves, but 1000 times worse? No, you don't. Because you don't want a debate, you want to pretend that land ever belonged to the Quel'dorei, when the reality is that the Night Elves have just as much of a claim to it as the High Elves did: which is none.