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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Yes. Now I'm forced to swap conduits between every boss in raid.
    Just like you're being forced to run heroic loot-funneling runs? Just like you're being forced to do PvP content because raids aren't dropping items fast enough? Just like you're forced to grind M+ 15s for loot drops? I think your idea of "forced" is somewhat skewed.

    Yes, they're spending time on meaningless things.
    Things that are regularly being requested by the community are meaningless? Oh, I get it, anything that isn't your specific PvP/raid content is meaningless! No, yeah, you're right, they should only focus on the specific things you want.


    Yes, that's absolutely absurd idea.
    It's absurd to continue the trend of releasing updated Timewalking content two or three times a year? It's absurd to reintroduce content that many players missed, in a form that doesn't involve out-leveling and stomping it? Oh, right, I forgot what I wrote at the end of my last point.


    Yes. Alts should not be easy to acquire, because they'll become mandatory even for casual raiding. Alts are supposed to be time-consuming.
    You know, it's funny, I played from Vanilla to MoP without more than a month-long break. Vanilla: Alts were just time-consuming to level. TBC: The next ten levels was easy and then alts were easy, especially with every patch that updated badge content. Wrath: Alts were even easier to level, gear, and be effective. Cata: Alts 'r easy, yo. MoP: Oh, gotta do the legendary grind on all characters this time! Good thing you have months and months to get through to the final step. A.k.a.: Alts were easy.

    No, alts should not be difficult to acquire. They've never been mandatory for casual raiding, no matter how easy they were to gear. Stop acting like the only way to play this game is top-100 raiding.


    I did. I'm playing this game after all.
    Touché, you do play this game. I mean, you play it differently than most of the rest of the people playing it, but hey, who gives a shit about them, right? Oh, wait, that's right: The people making the game give a shit about them, since they're the majority.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    And what makes you think that making game easyer and faster is somehow good change? It feels more like some sort of entiltment of players what want rewards but doesnt want put any effort to get them. BTW we were not forced by anyone to have our bis covenants and conduits but you can be sure that players will demand it in 9.1.5 just for the fact everybody can swap into bis and you have no excuse anymore to not be in your bis build.
    People have been making this exact argument since the beginning and it's even more bullshit now than it was then. Spoiler alert: The game is being made slower and harder with every expansion. Do you know how long it took me to level and gear my alt through Wrath, Cata and MoP? No time at all!

    They're not making the game easier, they're making it less tedious. There's a difference.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2021-08-31 at 03:12 AM.
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  2. #322
    Sorry - did I misread? The OP is calling SL an alt friendly expansion? SL has killed any interest I have in playing an alt. It is by far the worst for it in My opinion.

  3. #323
    Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves. Why should they be praised for finally fixing the problems a year later?

    They still don't think they were wrong in any of their decisions either so nothing will change in the long run. The next expansion will release with the same mistakes, only to be fixed years later.

    Time is a flat circle.
    If you ever wonder how dumb people really are then consider this: even in the golden age of smart heals dumb people still find ways to die.

  4. #324
    Did I miss Ion getting sacked? Because otherwise this is the same ole stuff from the previous expansions they pull when they need the sub numbers to bump up

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I did not notice a single positive change in 9.1.5. Every change is net negative to the game. It's a sure way to ruin WoW.
    Such as???
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragashii View Post
    Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves.
    This, but I would add "Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves, and hand-waved away concerns the community raised on day one with the typical 'wait till you try it, its amazing!"

    Its not just that they introduced a/many systems which are impossible to balance, its that they were warned the day it was announced, and even then its worse - the same thing has happened with the previous expansion, AND the one before that. As you and others have said - this is like a firefighter starting a fire and then putting it out and seeking praise for a job well done - the difference is we KNOW they started this fire, they told us they were starting the fire, then even stood there and said "nah, shes totally under control, im an expert!" as it raged out of control.

    This coupled with literally blaming their paying customers for their behavior with their staff, is it really any surprise at all to anyone that not much they do/announce at the moment is going to get a positive reception?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This, but I would add "Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves, and hand-waved away concerns the community raised on day one with the typical 'wait till you try it, its amazing!"

    Its not just that they introduced a/many systems which are impossible to balance, its that they were warned the day it was announced, and even then its worse - the same thing has happened with the previous expansion, AND the one before that. As you and others have said - this is like a firefighter starting a fire and then putting it out and seeking praise for a job well done - the difference is we KNOW they started this fire, they told us they were starting the fire, then even stood there and said "nah, shes totally under control, im an expert!" as it raged out of control.

    This coupled with literally blaming their paying customers for their behavior with their staff, is it really any surprise at all to anyone that not much they do/announce at the moment is going to get a positive reception?
    Part of me wonders if it will finally effect them though. This is the first time the deck has been stacked against them this heavily that I can recall. They have strong established competition and even the raid servers seem deader then I would expect.

    Whatever comes after sl will be the big thing. They gotta convince people to buy the box. I admit I don't know how they do it for non mythic players.

  8. #328
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    The funny thing is that most of the addicts complaining still play the game.
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  9. #329
    Sad but true, but the WoW community likes to complain.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgibb View Post
    Sad but true, but the WoW community likes to complain.
    Damn these complainers, they totally ruining the game man...
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  11. #331
    Well as a Classic player it seems retail players are unhappy due to:

    Most problems are still not fixed. Like stupid pvp and bad class design.

    These problems could have been fixed in the beta, but blizzard claimed they could not do these changes but now they are and they are trying to take the credit, like they are doing a good job.

    People have good reason to complain retail has goten bad changes for years and the devs have not been listening to feedback for years, and so people end up being mad and annoyed at a bad game.

    And to fix most issues they just need to look to the past due the game was simple more fun there Classic has proven this without a doubt.
    Last edited by Thundering; 2021-09-01 at 07:16 AM.

  12. #332
    Classic Andies sure miss no opportunity to let everyone know how fun their dead game is.

    It's ok, let us figure this one out without involving that thing.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Did I miss Ion getting sacked? Because otherwise this is the same ole stuff from the previous expansions they pull when they need the sub numbers to bump up
    No, you're just aware enough to see this for what it is. The same thing as usual, just happening sooner then normal. For the willfully ignorant, who can't and won't comprehend that, blizzards moves recently "look" like great change just because it's coming outside the usual timeline
    Wrath baby and proud of it

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Damn these complainers, they totally ruining the game man...
    In some sens it's true though. I can't think of many changes that wasn't complained about...

    Problem is that when things change due to Y complaining about it. Then X screams "no one asked for this". It's a very subjective thing.

    Some want tier sets back for example. The reason it was removed was because of complaints that it locks slots from gearing.
    So complainers did ruin it for people who liked them.

    Complainers ruin wow when the changes they complain about and get changed doesn't line up with your desires.

  15. #335
    Stood in the Fire
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    Pretty much what everyone has said. They're good changes, but they're coming six months too late. If we have to wait an entire year post-launch for beta feedback to be addressed and implemented, it only showcases a poor state of the game and its devs.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Memories are short I guess. The complaints about gating and designing the game to keep players playing longer have always been around.

    MAU is just the new substitute for "They're doing this to keep people subscribed for longer" which goes back to nearly the beginning.

    It's a ridiculous complaint anyway: What developer of an MMO is going to develop the game to get people to finish and go play something else as quickly as possible? None, that's who.

    MMO's generally are grindy motherfucking affairs as anyone who ever played EQ or EQ2 will tell you. People treating any of this like it's new is just hilarious frankly.
    Guess my point was lost in translation.

    There is a difference between, badges only dropping once type of time gating on a lockout, that only the 0.1% that could cleave the dungeons down from the first day would notice, and they noticed 4 years after at the end of WoTLK cause it took too long to release Cata.

    There is a difference when a time gating 1 quest and its a new and first time thing (Legendary Questline in MoP), when the only content is literally raid so no one cares cause thats what they do anyway to get the cloak, and they noticed in end WoD when it was a repeat of the system.

    And there is a massive difference when everything is timegated the same way in 3 expansions in a row, not 1 quest, literally everything.

    Again its not about time gating, its as i said to the post before the one you quoted, its 2021, they need to change the timegating tactics cause 3 times the same thing copy/paste, 5-6 years in a row is obvious even for the dum dums and of course they would complain.

    The game needs to stop punishing people that want to play it in order for them to keep the expansion hopper 1 month longer.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-08-31 at 07:32 AM.

  17. #337
    Because all of the changes they’re applying now should have

    A) been avoided (the initial problem) with Shadowlands launch, if those systems were tested and reviewed in Beta

    B) been changed right after launch if the problem became obvious to the masses that were not participating in Beta

    C) come way earlier (more customization options for example) to feel like a genuine response to feedback or player wishes and don’t look like a pitiful act to retain players

    D) come with 9.1 launch and not just with 9.1.5 as the problems of 9.1 were heavily discussed during PTS (domination gems for example)

    All of what they are doing in 9.1.5 is basically pulling the ripcord just to appease players, not because they’ve learned their lessons. They don’t give a damn about feedback, they only change things when the house is burning and man, it’s burning hot as hell right now.

    The main problem is they don’t change their design philosophy at all, they just react when it’s too late. Has been the case in BfA and in Shadowlands they do the exact same thing. Initially disregard feedback entirely, then very slowly but steadily changing their mind, but only initiating action to solve the issues when shit hit the fan eventually. Their response to feedback is just incredibly bad.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2021-08-31 at 09:16 AM.
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  18. #338
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Smile

    Well, it's a little different stuff

    I mean, I suppose, that yeah, it's making less negative some issues, but... essentially problems haven't gone anywhere, just become less noticeable&disturbing

    A similar line of reasoning, only for a different topic
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    As for symptomatology... I won't call them so, rather "illness complications", since connections here isn't direct, but mediated, but these are purely my semantic reasoning (although friends tend to hold opinion that this was not even symptom or complication, but underlying cause, which, together with “medical error”, led patient to coma (this at least I see from their logical reasoning, not sure); maybe they're even right, don’t know; I'm still getting used to role of the one who explains, because it's usually other way around). Same true for overall game design (from here):
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    They are strongly connected because first you break logic of what is happening spoiling one of regulation systems (content consumption/force growth rate), then you try to restore it with help of illogical "crutch" (for current thread this is new itemization and loot distribution systems), crutch in own turn requires load redistribution for the whole organism, which means slow, but inevitable and predictable changes in skeletal system, which affects cardiovascular, nervous, and ultimately, psychological systems (it's enough to imagine some form of neglected osteochondrosis or may be rickets). This is metaphorical of course, but I think you grasped the analogy. Everything is interconnected, as I already said.
    - - - Updated - - -

    MoanaLisa
    Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?
    A typical substitution of concepts has taken place, one shouldn't confuse soft with warm. MoP didn't have same cross-step transition that happened in Legion. Yes, of course, these elements had definite and specific purpose, but this is expansion progress (lowest link in hierarchy, which can and should be manipulated). What is happening now refers to completely different approach.

    I'll make reservation right away that, yes, MoP took away part of system's interactivity, violating certain principles of previous system (which Cataclysm turned into frankly utilitarian or unpleasant/broken, friends once talked about this), but it didn't cross that very illegal border (character's overall progress, which should remain unchanged and/or complemented element through expansions; everything that was listed is still there in MoP and works there, it just became less relevant, that's it), so when we discussed it, then I called it conditionally "talent-less", talents were abolished. It was bad, but expansion progress (last level of hierarchy) didn't try to replace elements that are higher in level by itself, "parasitism" had not yet begun.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-09-06 at 07:06 AM.
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  19. #339
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Guess my point was lost in translation.
    No it wasn't lost in translation. My point is that a lot of the complaints about Blizzard designing to keep people around is part of their job description and that this particular complaint is over 10 years old. It doesn't matter if anyone finds how they do it boring or not. It's just "making people subscribe longer" reskinned. The mechanism for it is pretty much the same. Make people do stuff for a long period of time to get to the reward. Dailies, caps on badges, attunements, limiting the number of dailies you could do, nearly all reputations and other stuff...it's all the same just dressed up differently. Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-08-31 at 09:21 AM.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    No it wasn't lost in translation. My point is that a lot of the complaints about Blizzard designing to keep people around is part of their job description and that this particular complaint is over 10 years old. It doesn't matter if anyone finds how they do it boring or not. It's just "making people subscribe longer" reskinned. The mechanism for it is pretty much the same. Make people do stuff for a long period of time to get to the reward. Dailies, caps on badges, attunements, limiting the number of dailies you could do, nearly all reputations and other stuff...it's all the same just dressed up differently. Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?
    Reputations that dont hold player power are mostly irrelevant, sure they might hold an enchant or too and require 2 weeks of dailies but yeah, you get it.

    My point stands as i said before, its highly different when you do it 3 times in a row, and you are faced with the same thing, and something that never really matterd.

    To best explain it, my mage alt just dinged, i need to waste something like 20-40 hours played, just to unlock the basic things that are considered player power that were timegated for the main 5 months ago, its simply bad design, especially when i am gonna redo a campaign i already did before.

    Not even talking about gear or anything, basic player power from the timegated things the main gotten passively, without even counting the amount of time needed for Torghast and weeklies and all that stuff.

    There is a massive difference between the design of things over the years, right now this design thats the 1 char expansion hopper will play till the end of the campaign, aka resub for an extra month at least, is punishing me, someone that hasnt unsubbed in 7 years to play his alt.

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