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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnificent Madmartegan View Post
    Sorry but I'm trying to figure out what systems in SL are "bad" or "wrong".... is it the covenants and the inability to just jump between them willy nilly.... that makes sense. People seem to forget that WoW at its core is a MMORPG... key in on the RPG part of it. There's a little thing called "choices have consequences". If you're able to just jump ship from one covenant to another on a whim then you're not really making a choice with any impact, therefore not really a choice at all. You're just flip floppy around for the kick of it, once again nullifying ANY impact on the player or the game/community. Was that not a complaint ages ago that nothing seemed to have any impact in the game. True it seems to change every expansion but at least for that expansion what you choose to do has a impact. Getting rid of anything like that breaks away even more from the RPG element that the game used to be. Yet apparently that was the "player-base" wants.... they want WoW to quit being a RPG and turn it into a derpy sandbox where no choices matter, nothing has a lasting effect (even if its just for that expansion) and just do whatever I want. I'm sorry but its freaking stupid to complain about it!!
    Yea I agree, especially when other RPGs are the same way. Was recently playing SW KotOR for the first time in a long time, one of the best RPGs made still talked about with high praise. That is until I killed a couple people, got Sith rep and realized I couldn't unkill the people. Had to drop it right away, all these games are garbage. I should be able to kill and unkill people whenever I want! /s. I am clearly in the minority here, but there was something graceful to me about questing through the different covenants and being locked to my covenant that I chose to devote my cause to. Literally devoting yourself to helping the covenant but these players want to be able to just say bye every other day they want to be another covenant. "Hey Winter Queen, I know I told you I would help you save Ardenweald, but these vampires have a cool shirt I want...hey Winter Queen, is it too late to save Ardenweald now? I know I left you high and dry yesterday but I got my shirt and I want to come back." Meanwhile there's Prince Renethal watching the maw walker leave after getting their transmog after promising to help collect the medallions to fight off Denathrius.... Now that all the covenants are teamed up again and working together a patch is coming to allow me to freely swap, seems about right to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3rd View Post
    The only reason people are having negative opinions about 9.1.5 is because Blizzard has been doing this bullshit move since Legion. let me explain it:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Legion:
    New legendary system introduced.
    player feedback: too RNG. We need little control to target specific ones.
    Blizzard: Sorry You are wrong.
    1 year later:
    Blizzard: We were wrong, u were right. Now U can target Legendaries. > System is good.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BFA:
    Blizzard: Hey guess what! we are scrapping a perfectly good system (Legendaries) and we are introducing azerite gear new system.
    players feedback: What? Why? Alright. Azerite gear is bad. U can't trade it, perks are too imbalanced, system is unfun.
    Blizzard: Trust me dude! it's good.
    1 year later:
    Blizzard: We were wrong, Azerite gear was bad because we didn't listen to your feedback.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Shadowland:
    Blizzard: Here is conduit and covenant systems
    Player feedback: Why cut 75% of content from players by limiting covenant choices?
    Blizzard: Woot? because of lore! We don't want you jumping between covenants cause everyone will be kyrian!
    1 year later:
    Blizzard: Ok guys u were right. We learned our lesson. U were right and we were wrong. Now u can experience all covenants on your main and conduit energy is scrapped.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not to mention the fact that since Legion, Blizzard had 0 respect for player time. In order to enjoy content. You were locked behind systems that require 100s of hours to grind and months of time gating.

    This is why people are pissed.

    At the end of the day, Blizzard is a company that makes decisions to make their game attractive. At the moment, they deserve to be in this position since all they were doing was trying to give the players the illusion of contents and systems that makes the players feel bad in the long run. All to maximize profits with the least amount of work.

    Mark my post. Next expansion, Blizzard will do the exact same thing.
    But don't you read the forums? Legion best thing since Wotlk! Shadowlands bad!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keller View Post
    Most people on the internet nowadays need a good spank.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The legitimacy of MAU was questioned - i explained that it is acceptable by all governing bodies as a measure, and the shareholders accept it, and both those points are relevant when discussing the legitimacy of MAU as a measure.

    - - - Updated - - -



    My main criticism of FF leveling is ironically one of the best things about it - the story. Yes, its quite well done, and yes, its expansive and very involved - the problem comes from FORCING players to complete the entire MSQ, including the dungeon and raid parts. This results in an awful lot of travel quests, like, a LOT of travel quests - sure, once you hit around lvl 30 its just port here, click, story, port to next location, but it can take hours and hours to work through some of the stories.

    Im totally fine with having stories like this but to force everyone to do it just to get to the current content is quite silly tbh.
    I don't really care for the story so far... it's not bad not amazing in my books. I just discovered the palace of the dead then wandered out of it in a confused daze.. entered a 30 Paladin came out a level 60 one with over 3mil gil of slut mog I can't sell since I didn't buy the game yet.

    It is jarring to be deleveled and simply lose your abilities for quests though.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Rings hollow when they are the ones selling the gold enabling it if I'm being blunt. If doing their best is 4 full pages of ads then they need to hire another company to run their game.
    People would still be buying gold if Blizzard stopped the token. Just like people buy Gil in FFXIV right now. People would still be buying boosts if the token didn't exist. Just like they do right now in FFXIV. The token isn't the problem. Cold, hard capitalism is. Lmk when you find a fix to that.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The legitimacy of MAU was questioned - i explained that it is acceptable by all governing bodies as a measure, and the shareholders accept it, and both those points are relevant when discussing the legitimacy of MAU as a measure.

    - - - Updated - - -



    My main criticism of FF leveling is ironically one of the best things about it - the story. Yes, its quite well done, and yes, its expansive and very involved - the problem comes from FORCING players to complete the entire MSQ, including the dungeon and raid parts. This results in an awful lot of travel quests, like, a LOT of travel quests - sure, once you hit around lvl 30 its just port here, click, story, port to next location, but it can take hours and hours to work through some of the stories.

    Im totally fine with having stories like this but to force everyone to do it just to get to the current content is quite silly tbh.

    No, the game is not forcing you per se. Why exactly are you forcing yourself to do msq?
    FFXIV has a lot of different content types. You are not meant to be racing somewhere.
    It's about the journey, not the end. If you think you will reach the end and some log in everyday power gaining chore ever increasing challenge dungeon thing is waiting for you, you got the wrong game.

    You rush, you won't enjoy it. Go do some crafting or some ocean fishing or some pvp or some gold saucer, etc. Delve into the world. You are enjoying past content, not passing it by, unless that is your choice.

    These are conditionings that come from other mmo's. The need to rush to the end. That is simply not how FF does things.
    The content you are complaining about will be over after say 100 hours. What is 100 hours in an mmo? It's a short and sweet piece of content to be enjoyed at your pace, not rush through.

    FF does not have a leveling experience. It has story. Traveling through the world and doing short quests is the point. The focus is the story and when doing the msq that is what the game is delivering. A focus on story.
    If you burn out, or get bored, go do something else and come back when you want to see more story.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-09-01 at 01:16 AM.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People would still be buying gold if Blizzard stopped the token. Just like people buy Gil in FFXIV right now. People would still be buying boosts if the token didn't exist. Just like they do right now in FFXIV. The token isn't the problem. Cold, hard capitalism is. Lmk when you find a fix to that.
    Right but the scale of it would be massively different... people are pretending the two are comparable in scale...they are not.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    No, the game is not forcing you per se. Why exactly are you forcing yourself to do msq?
    FFXIV has a lot of different content types. You are not meant to be racing somewhere.
    It's about the journey, not the end. If you think you will reach the end and some log in everyday power gaining chore ever increasing challenge dungeon thing is waiting for you, you got the wrong game.

    You rush, you won't enjoy it. Go do some crafting or some ocean fishing or some pvp or some gold saucer, etc. Delve into the world. You are enjoying past content, not passing it by, unless that is your choice.

    These are conditionings that come from other mmo's. The need to rush to the end. That is simply not how FF does things.
    The content you are complaining about will be over after say 100 hours. What is 100 hours in an mmo? It's a short and sweet piece of content to be enjoyed at your pace, not rush through.

    FF does not have a leveling experience. It has story. Traveling through the world and doing short quests is the point. The focus is the story and when doing the msq that is what the game is delivering. A focus on story.
    If you burn out, or get bored, go do something else and come back when you want to see more story.
    All wrong - you literally cannot progress through the game without doing the MSQ - it is mandatory unless you want to muck around in vanilla forever. Additioanlly, MANY abilities are tied to the MSQ, so im sorry, but you are just flatout wrong. And please, dont tell me how i SHOULD be playing the game - if you want to progress through the content, unlock the 3 expansions content, and actually be able to play your class, you absolutely, 100% MUST do the MSQ.

    You contradict yourself multiple times in here - you say more than once to just "play how i want" and to "play at my own pace" and then immediately tell me im doing it wrong, thats not how FF works, and i should not be rushing. You are everything wrong with gaming communities - telling others how they should be playing the game. Please move on from this outdated and unhelpful mindset, and let people play the game how they want, and at the pace they want, be that fast, or slow.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-09-01 at 01:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Right but the scale of it would be massively different... people are pretending the two are comparable in scale...they are not.
    WoW has 17 years of being the only MMO in the game. Give FFXIV a decade or two to catch up. :-)

  8. #468
    OP,

    As so many people in this tread have mentioned while there are positive changes in 9.1.5, there is no indication that we aren't just being looped into another similar situation we've seen in previous expansions. For the last 5 years we've experienced bad system, extremely late fix, and re-implementation of a system just as bad or worse. If we get a Blizzard in the future that listens to the player base and does not implement any more bad systems OR fixes the systems they implement BEFORE they go live, then I'm sure you will see a significant increase I'm positivity from the player base.

  9. #469
    I don't even think I care about WoW enough to argue about it anymore. Every week it's more and more embarrassing.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Imurbandaid View Post
    Everyone is complaining its some desperate attempt to grab players back that should have been in game from the start. People still flaming blizz and the new systems coming in 9.1.5.

    New management is taking over and immediately making positive changes, why is this a bad thing? This is a promising thing for the future.
    I've played more heavily than I would like to admit since TBC and this already was a more alt friendly/new player than other expansions (even more so than Legion and BfA were which seem to be the most similar comparisons to modern wow). Now I do admit I mainly M+ and can gear a toon to 230+ in about a week and already have 4 alts key logging, but as someone that mainly stays off the toxic forums and just enjoys the game I don't see much validation in the complaints besides, possibly, entering pvp as a new/alt player. Is this just an echo chamber for blizz bashing now?
    In all honesty it would take years of things being done correctly the first time knowing about them for Blizz to actively dig their way back into people's good graces. Not sure how much time you spent in alphas/betas but I have done almost all of them since TBC and I can't really remember (especially after WOTLK) a time where they actually fixed things based on player feedback.

    They have also gotten a lot worse with the releases of their new content patches. They alpha/beta test at our expense (literally, as in we pay them to test their new content), have us provide tons of feed back and then release said content with everything still broken. This has seriously gotten much worse for every single release. Not better at all. Further it stays broken for months.

    Some of the changes you see in this patch were changes strongly recommended during alpha (how long ago was alpha?). These are from a huge list of things that would overall make the game more playable but it literally took a huge shake-up of management due to their misdealing's with their team members and how long to get changes worth mentioning?

    Some people don't see this so let me try to explain it to you in a way that makes sense to me so maybe it will you.

    They design or break something, you inform them about it but it falls on deaf ears. The issues you speak of are doing 100% no good, impact the game negatively 100% and the playability 100% bad. After like 6months-1yr or even longer they fix things that take that 100% down to like 90%-95% and people are so use to being shit on for those months or that year, that they think its awesome and they are soooo happy its better.

    They want it to be better, they want the game they love to not suck, they want their friends to keep playing or want to play it but they don't. Ultimately its because even though its better its still 90%-95% worse than its been. And all of this is avoidable. Why have your alpha/beta testers pay you to test your game if you don't give a shit about the results?

    I can also tell you first hand, the people that pull the strings on a lot of the game design don't play the game, and it's painfully obvious.

  11. #471
    I remember I time where the only thing I needed to farm every week was Valor/Conquest, and the only system we had was profession, gear, talents, and glyphs!

    No arbitrary systems involved, no petty daily activities schemes, only raids, dungeons, PVP, world events, mount farming, and achievements.

    Life was good! But, now, it's all gone...
    Last edited by Luck4; 2021-09-01 at 02:18 AM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I remember I time where the only thing I needed to farm every week was Valor/Conquest, and the only system we had was profession, gear, talents, and glyphs!

    No arbitrary systems involved, no petty daily activities schemes, only raids, dungeons, PVP, world events, mount farming, and achievements.

    Life was good! But, now, it's all gone...
    Yea, as someone that recently started messing with alts on my account, HOLY SHIT I don't want to keep doing this shit over and over.......

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Sin of Pride View Post
    It is a desperate attempt to stem the damage they expect to get from endbringers. Most of these changes should be hotfixed in. They don't warrant a patch its simply disabling systems...
    Well Endwalker is pretty much the big thing to watch come 2022, because if this november blizz tries releasing 9.1.5 around that time or december they've F***ed up completley, even then, releasing it in october would be too early, since this is bad for blizz no matter what they do.

    Their best, strategy, if I was blizz right now is.

    Hold off until January, let the Endwalker and GW2 End of Dragons hype have its time, *then* employ 9.1.5 with some more polish and QoL features.

    In addition, have a plan for 9.2 ready by April, if they really, do wanna compete with XIV again.

    Because right now their only option is ironically the one that got them into so much shit, delay.

    Because ironically it would favour them more now to actually take their time knowing full well right now they're not the top dog MMO anymore, and if they let Endwalker have its moment to shine, then by the time 6.2 drops for Endwalker people will potentially have a level of fatigue, with some still very much enjoying the expansion and others maybe ready to go back to WoW to see where things are at.

    Endwalker 9.1 will likley launch in late january/early feb, so that gives blizz a window around march to april to launch 9.2 where there may be just enough interest after febuary in seeing how wow is doing since the changes.

    9.1.5 should, imho launch around january, with it being little more than a QoL patch there is no reason *not* to work on 9.2 at the same time, to rebuild customer trust, blizz would then ahve an incentive there to show the game is active again and 9.2.5 could launch around late june to give more qol features like the 4 covenant allied races and some other shenanigans to fill the time.

    Then, maybe, they could get away with 9.3

    Maybe.

    With 9.3.5 being some more allied races/fillers (Maybe vrykul/ogres etc to fill the time as popular player requests) to give people that reincentive to trust blizz again.

    Basically, blizz best bet is to "restart" WoW by stopping now, and starting after March where they can compete with 14 again and regain some of their losses through a long-term active design initative for the next year.

    The problem is...

    ..Will they have the balls to pull that?

    Will Ion pull a Naoki Yoshida and basically say "Yes Activision I know were having some really bad as fuck controversy but right now I need more time to make a quality patch that gives players a reason to come back."

    That, is the real question.

    If- they make the mistake of rushing 9.2 for late december/january then Shadowlands is absoleutley doomed, it wont even have a chance in hell of competing with Endwalker right now with the hype and growing popularity of XIV.

    So they need to be smart, play their hand at the right time, playing it too early will just lead to 9.2 being launched in the background and nobody will care.

    Basically this is the point in time that blizzard really does have to think about both the choice and consequences of its next move, because what ever they do next, will decide if they can recover from the damage done, or if Shadowlands spirals uncontrollably into decline.
    Last edited by CaptainV; 2021-09-01 at 02:40 AM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Honestly the reason the negative response exists is blizzard took forever to add content needed from the start, ignored the feedback in beta, didnt properly test their game and released a game that is essentially self-destructive.

    And, adding insult to injury, these are patch job fixes, they dont add anything of real value, 9.1.5 is basically the bandaid to the bigger issue.

    And thats why its failed.
    Just because you gave bad feedback in the beta doesn't mean they ignored it. 9.1.5 is the appropriate time for these changes.

  15. #475
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People would still be buying gold if Blizzard stopped the token. Just like people buy Gil in FFXIV right now. People would still be buying boosts if the token didn't exist. Just like they do right now in FFXIV. The token isn't the problem. Cold, hard capitalism is. Lmk when you find a fix to that.
    You'd have to be ignorant to think people would buy it nearly as much as they do as when it's SANCTIONED by Blizzard. You'll also only occasionally see bots in FF. In WoW they're basically everywhere, farming without fear of Blizzard.

    As far as the OP, the reason the positive changes ring hollow is that this is a trend Blizzard has set. They release a shitty expansion with shitty systems that make players frustrated and angry, then they release a "fix" patch that basically removes every system they touted as amazing in the X.0 patch. They go "Hey man, those systems were awesome, but we were TOTALLY thinking of completely removing all of those systems right now as we were hemorrhaging players, yep this was our plan all along!"

    Maybe if it was the first time Blizzard had done this kind of shit. Perhaps possibly if had even been the second. But this is the FOURTH FUCKING TIME Blizzard has released a broken ass, boring, tedious, chore-filled expansion that they only chose to fix after players got so fed up they literally stopped playing for a competitor game.

    Say what you want about FFXIV, it's clear they're doing things better than WoW by far just from all the positive response to FFXIV from the vast majority of players. Even the Blizzard stans on this forum complain about WoW when FFXIV isn't in the conversation. They'll criticize FFXIV to death when comparing it to WoW, but when it's a discussion where FF isn't a factor, even the WoW players shit on their own game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because you gave bad feedback in the beta doesn't mean they ignored it. 9.1.5 is the appropriate time for these changes.
    Most of these changes and the covenant shit is stuff Blizzard had said would be a permanent fixture because it was OH SO FUN and rewarding and all that bullshit. The only reason they implemented these changes now and not later was because of the hemorrhaging players. In BFA it was 8.2.5 or whatever patch it was that finally made the game somewhat fun. Blizzard goes as long as they can with a shitty game and then ripcord away when they realize people aren't responding positively to their crap.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    even the WoW players shit on their own game.
    Every playerbase shits on their 'own game'.

    Browse any established or extremely popular game subreddit\forums\boards, like for League of Legends, WoW or Path of Exile, and its just a steaming pile of whining and complaining about the game, the incompetent developers, the bad changes, etc, PoE\WOW in particular nowadays. It's the nature of the beast, and it just gets extremely cynical the longer the game lasts (or they play it).

    This shouldn't be surprising?

    As for the topic, absolutely stoked for 9.1.5!
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2021-09-01 at 03:34 AM.

  17. #477
    Mechagnome Reclaimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    WoW has 17 years of being the only MMO in the game. Give FFXIV a decade or two to catch up. :-)
    You don't think whats going on in WoW will happen to FF14? I played that game before it become cool, Fuck, I played the 1st version of the game that tanked. The game has its issues. The only reason FF14 is gaining momentum is because blizzard haters and alot of people here found some ammo to use against blizzard. Big deal. You all seen the outrage from all the legit FF14 players about the new playerbase being highly toxic?

    They don't want WoW players playing. But they will and they will pull that game down too because all they can do is cry and act like wannabe devs. Toxic Player feedback damages an MMO, Sadly most of it is. You have to let the wizards work the magic themselves. they know what they are doing. That's how we got Classic, BC and WolLK.

    I say fuck ff14, Forced dungeon and a story so boring and gated, They cash in on you paying 25$ to skip it. ZERO character customization outside of mogs and looks. Gear is the only factor. if that was WoW most people here would be all over that shit but hey double standards as long as its against Blizzard. They had also have there own share of toxic players, Hell people talk about bots in WoW? Shit, They join active dungeons and raids in FF14. Paided runs and GDKP/CDKP? Still a thing in FF14. Guess that's not problem tho because people can feel like they are sticking it to WoW, lol whatever see you all next expac.
    Remember, A Man may break a Woman's Heart - But a Woman will destroy a Man's life. - SJK @ the #Antiwokenessworld

  18. #478
    I am happy with 9.1.5 changes.

    I just need them now rather than later !

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    WoW has 17 years of being the only MMO in the game. Give FFXIV a decade or two to catch up. :-)
    Until they sell power I'm not going to be annoyed with them selling power and diminishing the player experience like wow currently is...

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Until they sell power I'm not going to be annoyed with them selling power and diminishing the player experience like wow currently is...
    Except wow doesn't sell power.....you're diminishing yourself.

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