Why the negative response to all the positive changes in 9.1.5

[Gaidax]

Who said Blizzardf asked that second question? They don't ahve to because they know players are entitled and are automatically going to complain when they can't have everything right way. That is what makes it easier to ignore. And they were absolutely right in that first quote.

"Entitled"? We're paying their fucking salaries. For $$ we paid for Shadowlands alone so far - you could buy 3 great AAA games.

Drop this "entitled" crap, they are nothing without their customers.


Ability to switch covenants and conduits at will - holy shit you guys so entitled holy crap... wutface

[Mosotti]

People who bitch vs people who express happiness on forums ratio is like 100 to 1.

[LCDArcade]

We won't see any real change until 10.0. Ion already said in an interview a while back that 9.2 isn't going to be canceled and they're just going to continue as planned to finish up Shadowlands.

There is literally no point to come back until the next expansion.

[Empower]

We won't see any real change until 10.0. Ion already said in an interview a while back that 9.2 isn't going to be canceled and they're just going to continue as planned to finish up Shadowlands.

There is literally no point to come back until the next expansion.

The question was never if 9.2 is coming it is if there is a 9.3.

[El Gucaragua]

Everyone is complaining its some desperate attempt to grab players back that should have been in game from the start. People still flaming blizz and the new systems coming in 9.1.5.

New management is taking over and immediately making positive changes, why is this a bad thing? This is a promising thing for the future.
I've played more heavily than I would like to admit since TBC and this already was a more alt friendly/new player than other expansions (even more so than Legion and BfA were which seem to be the most similar comparisons to modern wow). Now I do admit I mainly M+ and can gear a toon to 230+ in about a week and already have 4 alts key logging, but as someone that mainly stays off the toxic forums and just enjoys the game I don't see much validation in the complaints besides, possibly, entering pvp as a new/alt player. Is this just an echo chamber for blizz bashing now?

Apparently we've just been asleep for the past year and can't recognize that all the 'changes' were things we've desired from the beginning, the feedback the players gave from the beginning that are only being implemented now. I'm sorry but this isn't an echo chamber of blizz bashing now, this is reality. They should not be cheered on for implementing what should have been in the game from the start. In terms of customization, that's more a failure on Blizzard's pitiful communication lines about it even being worked on - but it was still given as feedback by many.

I'm not trying to be an asshole when I say this, but you're the person that gives Blizzard the power to do this. Those that just accept the situation and consume the product as a physical embodiment of the everything is fine meme always complain about those that constantly criticize due to the product they enjoyed so much, made with quality standards, falling so far from grace.

Legion was a blessing and a curse. It showed how they could make what is arguably the objectively best expansion they've ever produced - and yet it has many of the same problems that are still present today, that we've called them on for 6 years to move away from. Except during Legion, the content was so good you had so little time to focus on these issues but now, thanks in part to the travesty that is BfA... they're even more clear that before.

Start holding them to the standards they once had for themselves which they have unfortunately forgotten.

[Kallisto]

5 minutes of study can tell you that people have been complaining about wow since forever, especially after BC launched as the first xpac.
The game can be hard if you want it to be, or just play at easy level. Whats wrong with that? If to hard, people are left out of content. If to easy, people dont get a challenge.
How is SL grindy? What do you need to grind except from a couple of runs in Torghast?
wow has always been elitist/hardcore no matter the version of wow. look at classic. Piss easy game, still lots of elitist & hardcore mentality.
Yes, flying is a weird one with Blizzard. They should just give it up and give us flying once all zones are cleared.
Since wow launched, heck even since MMORPGs came about, people have joined guilds and pugs.
I would argue M+ was a welcome addition in Legion, but since then its become stail and has ruined the dungeon experience overall. m+ does reward you greatly though.

So yeah, this is probably something one could argue about forever. The challenge for Blizzard is to find the sweet spot. To much//to little, easy//difficult, to rewarding//no reward and so on.

I think for the most part, wow would be better of if most content delivered decent enough content that most people had access to. Very few does mythic, less and less people do m+. Those who do m+, does it because they have to(vault gear).

The problem is that for these people there is NO sweet spot. It's "GIVE IT HOW I WANT 100%!" . You put 100 wow players into a room and tell them to get a consensus, you can be assured that it is more likely you'll come back in an hour with 99 of them dead and the 1 left being some guy who thinks the open world should be mythic difficulty and if you die you lose every item you have.

Yet every single one of those people need to be 100% catered too 100% of the time.

[Redwolf]

Being mmo-champion i dont know if am getting mocked or not anymore

But yeah, my experience simply tells me, long term players are starting to burn out from the same systems because they know what to do, they just dont care to do it, playing 5 alts? Sure, lets do M+ with multiple alts but wait..

Playing 5 alts to do weeklies/renown catch up and Torghast? Yeah no.

While i have newbies that just started last year (IRL familiars from net cafe culture) that dont seem to care, they only play 1 char and have never heard them complain, because they dont know better, and trust me, they are having fun.

Nope no mockery or nothing. Wow used to be about fresh ideas, or as others have pointed out, taking a good one of another game and making it a lot better (which was surprisingly fresh). But that in and of itself was a risk, we could have said hey that's just Dark Ages of Camelot, or Everquest, instead people liked it.

[Yarathir]

Leave then. Good riddance. Again that is your choice. You choose your Covenant. If you want to change Covenants you also have to choose, and go through the process they implemented. Their reactions these things are the petulance, and their crying to having everything without having to work for it is their entitlement. If you don't understand the concepts that's ok.

No, you're just wrong and coping with it. Sorry.

[Talon8669]

Everyone is complaining its some desperate attempt to grab players back that should have been in game from the start. People still flaming blizz and the new systems coming in 9.1.5.

New management is taking over and immediately making positive changes, why is this a bad thing? This is a promising thing for the future.
I've played more heavily than I would like to admit since TBC and this already was a more alt friendly/new player than other expansions (even more so than Legion and BfA were which seem to be the most similar comparisons to modern wow). Now I do admit I mainly M+ and can gear a toon to 230+ in about a week and already have 4 alts key logging, but as someone that mainly stays off the toxic forums and just enjoys the game I don't see much validation in the complaints besides, possibly, entering pvp as a new/alt player. Is this just an echo chamber for blizz bashing now?

People are upset because it's the same BS we've seen for the last 3 expansions. Everything they are changing is things we were telling them during beta. We shouldn't have to live with this BS for what a year? Just because they had committed to a point during beta and didn't want to make changes. And personally I see this as just tossing us breadcrumbs last minute to try and get people to stay. This isn't us getting something, this is them fixing their shit game. These should have been in at launch. This isn't a win for us, regardless of how much better the game will be. This shit should have been in since day one.

[Nerovar]

"Entitled"? We're paying their fucking salaries. For $$ we paid for Shadowlands alone so far - you could buy 3 great AAA games.

Drop this "entitled" crap, they are nothing without their customers.


Ability to switch covenants and conduits at will - holy shit you guys so entitled holy crap... wutface

I wonder what these guys were saying when Blizzard introduced dual talent specialization.

"What? You want to swap between playstyles without paying increasing amounts of gold? These entitled kids are ruining my game with their demands."

[The One Percent]

I'd imagine because it took them 9 months to start fixing shit that people told them was wrong in the motherfucking beta.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

For a game that it's main attribute has been the high quality end game content over other rivals the existence of tons of systems make it difficult for non professional or hard core players to be able to enjoy that as it needs quite some time investment and maybe a phd. Same goes for cosmetics and such. Am not going to comment on bugs, gameplay, economy, community moderation etc etc.
Positive changes are always welcome but from that to the point where "we listened to feedback" there is a huge gap.
At this point I would welcome changes to the latter than just a free swap between covenants and island solo que.

[Gestopft]

Because OP they have been doing the same fucking thing for 10 years or so.

This is exactly it:
-Launch new expansion
-Some systems/design choices have very noticeable flaws
-Systems get improved over the course of the expansion
-Next expansion comes with a different set of flaws
-Repeat

[daniel0805]

I am coming back after unsubbing in BfA, mainly because I was busy and to a slight degree because I was annoyed by their pet Sylvanas arc, which is getting ridiculous. Somebody must really have a fetish at HQ.

Anyway leveling an alt for kicks and I was looking at the requirements for Sul Tiran Pathfinder 2, which was not available when I unsubbed. No bloody way I am going through 2 old reps to revered just to fly in outdated zones. I seriously question the logic of this.

Then I open crafting, same useless shit that it has been since vanilla. In all the years of playing wow I was actually able to use something crafted for raiding only once in TBC with BoP smithing. Rest has always been crap. In 4 days of gaming including leveling to 60 you can drop in a LFR and get much better gear compared to anything that you can get by crafting. So pfff.

Solo content is nice if you discount the whole lore blunder with Elune being clueless and sending all the night elves to the maw, but we all know NE are just stepping stones for HQ favorite pet. In the end they are going to redeem her and she will be welcomed back or die heroically...

On the positive side 4 covenants mean I can level 4 alts without being bored. I have being back for 2 weeks and still did not get in anything serious like M+ or real raids (not LFR) so I can't talk about it, but I guess if you are min maxing the inability to switch covenant is a big minus, considering much of your abilities depend on it, and the choice is way to early to be able to judge the impact it has.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

NO they shouldn't have. IT was fine the way it was. Players have simply gotten worse and worse with their entitlement and have ruined the game. Doing it now is fine as things should be made easeier now that everyone has been through the system once.

Player entitlement is what is truly destroying this once great game.

The funny thing is that if they had this in at launch, it still would've forced every player to go through the system once. So you literally have no defense of the system, because their own correction to it addresses that exact issue. If you're going to try to defend it by claiming it took them a year to figure out that solution, that isn't going to look any better because it was one of the suggested solutions offered during beta.

Your defense of a terrible system isn't even coherent, because the solution is literally one of the dozens suggested during beta (I didn't even spend much time reading the beta forums, yet I still remember seeing that solution being suggested multiple times during beta). So either I read their forums more than their CMs do, or their CMs suck at communication, or the team took the feedback and said "Fuck that, we have our own vision and we don't care about what the players want".

Considering the tone out of Blizzard while they've been defending the implementation of Covenants the entire time since people started pointing out the flaws, it is pretty obvious the answer is the third option. They even acknowledge how vocal people were about the issues with Covenant in their post announcing the changes, and they've acknowledged it in prior interviews after the system went live. They knew people hated it and insisted that it was a good design anyways.

[Vakir]

If you unironically consider yourself a Centrist, get bent. Centrism is just Conservatism parading as fencesitting.

You can't actually balance two diametrically opposed ideologies. It's a lie. And you certainly shouldn't advocate for finding a middle ground between right and wrong when confronted with that dichotomy.

Oh, I was being sarcastic.

I was making fun of MoanaLisa and the smug "haha look at all these COMPLAINERS :^) but ALSO there's lots of FANBOYS" without committing anything of value to the discussion and completely ignoring any points, legitimate or otherwise.

Or basically: it's really easy to be a stuck up piece of shit when you don't have skin in the game. ...while also passive-aggressively criticizing people who have strong views against those who disagree with their sig while doing it themselves.

Everyone lipservicing that it's "just easier to be a hater" and it "gets more upvotes" both forget where they are and obviously haven't fucking been on the other side of the table, or they'd know it's like arguing against a wall that is on fire and also belongs to the official fanclub of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

[Beefhammer]

Everyone is complaining its some desperate attempt to grab players back that should have been in game from the start. People still flaming blizz and the new systems coming in 9.1.5.

New management is taking over and immediately making positive changes, why is this a bad thing? This is a promising thing for the future.
I've played more heavily than I would like to admit since TBC and this already was a more alt friendly/new player than other expansions (even more so than Legion and BfA were which seem to be the most similar comparisons to modern wow). Now I do admit I mainly M+ and can gear a toon to 230+ in about a week and already have 4 alts key logging, but as someone that mainly stays off the toxic forums and just enjoys the game I don't see much validation in the complaints besides, possibly, entering pvp as a new/alt player. Is this just an echo chamber for blizz bashing now?

If Blizzard somehow discovered the cure for all cancers, this forum would bitch nonstop about Blizzard putting oncologists and people who work in oncology out of business.

There is no pleasing this playerbase, 1, it's too large to please a majority. 2, too many here posting haven't played in years and really only are interested in seeing the game fail for some twisted reason they just can't let go of. 3, most happy or content players just don't voice their opinions. For every 10 angry vocal people you see 1 happy vocal person. But that doesn't mean there aren't as many happy people, they just don't vocalize it.

Just look at this cesspool of a forum. Anyone expressing they like what's going on in game gets labeled a white know, a Blizzard shill, a fanboy, or someone who's hopelessly addicted. Overall, I've enjoyed SL, I liked BFA, Cata was on of my best experiences behind MoP and Legion, WoD, Vanilla, TBC, then WotLK round out my bottom. But that makes me something to hate because I'm not a woohoo LK/TBC rules and pandas suck forum poster.

But the changes are fine. People expecting complete system overhauls in the middle of an expansion and ragging on these changes(much of which they all wanted as Beta was going on) are just bitching to bitch. Yet I'm the addict.

[darklogrus]

I wonder what these guys were saying when Blizzard introduced dual talent specialization.

"What? You want to swap between playstyles without paying increasing amounts of gold? These entitled kids are ruining my game with their demands."

I was one of the few on here lobbying for use to have the ability to just swap between our specs wherever we wanted whenever we wanted and thats exactly their arguments. Now they use it more then me and forget they were the ones heavily against it lol.

[Terminatrix]

because for 3 xpack in a row we told them their system had flaws and they didnt listen to players telling them what would fix things till 3/4 pack done. they *fix and improve things* but its to late when they do

[Biomega]

because for 3 xpack in a row we told them their system had flaws and they didnt listen to players telling them what would fix things till 3/4 pack done. they *fix and improve things* but its to late when they do

It's even worse than that. It's not that they didn't KNOW things were flawed - they did. But they simply wanted to stick with their "engagement metric" mechanics like conduit energy and whatnot for as long as possible. It's all about massaging the visuals, keeping things locked into their agenda for as long as possible and then cashing in on the "fix" when the breaking points is reached.

It's exactly what happened with Legion legendaries. It's exactly what happened with BFA corruption. And so on and so forth.

That's the real problem at Blizzard right now: they have plenty of very capable people, but they also have a team of savvy executives who push a very specific design goal onto everything. And that goal doesn't really care that much about the long-term health of the game - it cares a lot more about medium-term metrics that make investors happy. This is a decades-old game after all, and it's clear that a decaying husk like this won't be a cash cow forever. So they're doing what they can to squeeze what they can. It makes business sense, after a fashion; but it's a kick in the 'nads for players who are deeply invested into the franchise.

To me personally what's more frightening than the whole conduit energy/covenant/whatever stuff is the fact that the raid wasn't that great. So far WoW was always "redeemed" by having stellar endgame PvE content despite the, uh, "rocky" road of mechanical contrivance. But SoD was a major letdown for a lot of people, and it's the first raid in a LONG time where I'm looking at things and just going "you know what, this doesn't really look all that fun to do".