Why the negative response to all the positive changes in 9.1.5

[Theangryone]

Did I miss Ion getting sacked? Because otherwise this is the same ole stuff from the previous expansions they pull when they need the sub numbers to bump up

[Melusine]

I did not notice a single positive change in 9.1.5. Every change is net negative to the game. It's a sure way to ruin WoW.

Such as???

[arkanon]

Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves.

This, but I would add "Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves, and hand-waved away concerns the community raised on day one with the typical 'wait till you try it, its amazing!"

Its not just that they introduced a/many systems which are impossible to balance, its that they were warned the day it was announced, and even then its worse - the same thing has happened with the previous expansion, AND the one before that. As you and others have said - this is like a firefighter starting a fire and then putting it out and seeking praise for a job well done - the difference is we KNOW they started this fire, they told us they were starting the fire, then even stood there and said "nah, shes totally under control, im an expert!" as it raged out of control.

This coupled with literally blaming their paying customers for their behavior with their staff, is it really any surprise at all to anyone that not much they do/announce at the moment is going to get a positive reception?

[Empower]

This, but I would add "Because all the problems they are "solving" they created themselves, and hand-waved away concerns the community raised on day one with the typical 'wait till you try it, its amazing!"

Its not just that they introduced a/many systems which are impossible to balance, its that they were warned the day it was announced, and even then its worse - the same thing has happened with the previous expansion, AND the one before that. As you and others have said - this is like a firefighter starting a fire and then putting it out and seeking praise for a job well done - the difference is we KNOW they started this fire, they told us they were starting the fire, then even stood there and said "nah, shes totally under control, im an expert!" as it raged out of control.

This coupled with literally blaming their paying customers for their behavior with their staff, is it really any surprise at all to anyone that not much they do/announce at the moment is going to get a positive reception?

Part of me wonders if it will finally effect them though. This is the first time the deck has been stacked against them this heavily that I can recall. They have strong established competition and even the raid servers seem deader then I would expect.

Whatever comes after sl will be the big thing. They gotta convince people to buy the box. I admit I don't know how they do it for non mythic players.

[Asrialol]

The funny thing is that most of the addicts complaining still play the game.

[mrgibb]

Sad but true, but the WoW community likes to complain.

[Gaidax]

Sad but true, but the WoW community likes to complain.

Damn these complainers, they totally ruining the game man...

[Thundering]

Well as a Classic player it seems retail players are unhappy due to:

Most problems are still not fixed. Like stupid pvp and bad class design.

These problems could have been fixed in the beta, but blizzard claimed they could not do these changes but now they are and they are trying to take the credit, like they are doing a good job.

People have good reason to complain retail has goten bad changes for years and the devs have not been listening to feedback for years, and so people end up being mad and annoyed at a bad game.

And to fix most issues they just need to look to the past due the game was simple more fun there Classic has proven this without a doubt.

[Gaidax]

Classic Andies sure miss no opportunity to let everyone know how fun their dead game is.

It's ok, let us figure this one out without involving that thing.

[Cwimge]

Did I miss Ion getting sacked? Because otherwise this is the same ole stuff from the previous expansions they pull when they need the sub numbers to bump up

No, you're just aware enough to see this for what it is. The same thing as usual, just happening sooner then normal. For the willfully ignorant, who can't and won't comprehend that, blizzards moves recently "look" like great change just because it's coming outside the usual timeline

[Kumorii]

Damn these complainers, they totally ruining the game man...

In some sens it's true though. I can't think of many changes that wasn't complained about...

Problem is that when things change due to Y complaining about it. Then X screams "no one asked for this". It's a very subjective thing.

Some want tier sets back for example. The reason it was removed was because of complaints that it locks slots from gearing.
So complainers did ruin it for people who liked them.

Complainers ruin wow when the changes they complain about and get changed doesn't line up with your desires.

[Advo]

Pretty much what everyone has said. They're good changes, but they're coming six months too late. If we have to wait an entire year post-launch for beta feedback to be addressed and implemented, it only showcases a poor state of the game and its devs.

[potis]

Memories are short I guess. The complaints about gating and designing the game to keep players playing longer have always been around.

MAU is just the new substitute for "They're doing this to keep people subscribed for longer" which goes back to nearly the beginning.

It's a ridiculous complaint anyway: What developer of an MMO is going to develop the game to get people to finish and go play something else as quickly as possible? None, that's who.

MMO's generally are grindy motherfucking affairs as anyone who ever played EQ or EQ2 will tell you. People treating any of this like it's new is just hilarious frankly.

Guess my point was lost in translation.

There is a difference between, badges only dropping once type of time gating on a lockout, that only the 0.1% that could cleave the dungeons down from the first day would notice, and they noticed 4 years after at the end of WoTLK cause it took too long to release Cata.

There is a difference when a time gating 1 quest and its a new and first time thing (Legendary Questline in MoP), when the only content is literally raid so no one cares cause thats what they do anyway to get the cloak, and they noticed in end WoD when it was a repeat of the system.

And there is a massive difference when everything is timegated the same way in 3 expansions in a row, not 1 quest, literally everything.

Again its not about time gating, its as i said to the post before the one you quoted, its 2021, they need to change the timegating tactics cause 3 times the same thing copy/paste, 5-6 years in a row is obvious even for the dum dums and of course they would complain.

The game needs to stop punishing people that want to play it in order for them to keep the expansion hopper 1 month longer.

[Nyel]

Because all of the changes they’re applying now should have

A) been avoided (the initial problem) with Shadowlands launch, if those systems were tested and reviewed in Beta

B) been changed right after launch if the problem became obvious to the masses that were not participating in Beta

C) come way earlier (more customization options for example) to feel like a genuine response to feedback or player wishes and don’t look like a pitiful act to retain players

D) come with 9.1 launch and not just with 9.1.5 as the problems of 9.1 were heavily discussed during PTS (domination gems for example)

All of what they are doing in 9.1.5 is basically pulling the ripcord just to appease players, not because they’ve learned their lessons. They don’t give a damn about feedback, they only change things when the house is burning and man, it’s burning hot as hell right now.

The main problem is they don’t change their design philosophy at all, they just react when it’s too late. Has been the case in BfA and in Shadowlands they do the exact same thing. Initially disregard feedback entirely, then very slowly but steadily changing their mind, but only initiating action to solve the issues when shit hit the fan eventually. Their response to feedback is just incredibly bad.

[Alkizon]

Well, it's a little different stuff

I mean, I suppose, that yeah, it's making less negative some issues, but... essentially problems haven't gone anywhere, just become less noticeable&disturbing

A similar line of reasoning, only for a different topic

As for symptomatology... I won't call them so, rather "illness complications", since connections here isn't direct, but mediated, but these are purely my semantic reasoning (although friends tend to hold opinion that this was not even symptom or complication, but underlying cause, which, together with “medical error”, led patient to coma (this at least I see from their logical reasoning, not sure); maybe they're even right, don’t know; I'm still getting used to role of the one who explains, because it's usually other way around). Same true for overall game design (from here):

They are strongly connected because first you break logic of what is happening spoiling one of regulation systems (content consumption/force growth rate), then you try to restore it with help of illogical "crutch" (for current thread this is new itemization and loot distribution systems), crutch in own turn requires load redistribution for the whole organism, which means slow, but inevitable and predictable changes in skeletal system, which affects cardiovascular, nervous, and ultimately, psychological systems (it's enough to imagine some form of neglected osteochondrosis or may be rickets). This is metaphorical of course, but I think you grasped the analogy. Everything is interconnected, as I already said.

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MoanaLisa
Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?

A typical substitution of concepts has taken place, one shouldn't confuse soft with warm. MoP didn't have same cross-step transition that happened in Legion. Yes, of course, these elements had definite and specific purpose, but this is expansion progress (lowest link in hierarchy, which can and should be manipulated). What is happening now refers to completely different approach.

I'll make reservation right away that, yes, MoP took away part of system's interactivity, violating certain principles of previous system (which Cataclysm turned into frankly utilitarian or unpleasant/broken, friends once talked about this), but it didn't cross that very illegal border (character's overall progress, which should remain unchanged and/or complemented element through expansions; everything that was listed is still there in MoP and works there, it just became less relevant, that's it), so when we discussed it, then I called it conditionally "talent-less", talents were abolished. It was bad, but expansion progress (last level of hierarchy) didn't try to replace elements that are higher in level by itself, "parasitism" had not yet begun.

[MoanaLisa]

Guess my point was lost in translation.

No it wasn't lost in translation. My point is that a lot of the complaints about Blizzard designing to keep people around is part of their job description and that this particular complaint is over 10 years old. It doesn't matter if anyone finds how they do it boring or not. It's just "making people subscribe longer" reskinned. The mechanism for it is pretty much the same. Make people do stuff for a long period of time to get to the reward. Dailies, caps on badges, attunements, limiting the number of dailies you could do, nearly all reputations and other stuff...it's all the same just dressed up differently. Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?

[potis]

No it wasn't lost in translation. My point is that a lot of the complaints about Blizzard designing to keep people around is part of their job description and that this particular complaint is over 10 years old. It doesn't matter if anyone finds how they do it boring or not. It's just "making people subscribe longer" reskinned. The mechanism for it is pretty much the same. Make people do stuff for a long period of time to get to the reward. Dailies, caps on badges, attunements, limiting the number of dailies you could do, nearly all reputations and other stuff...it's all the same just dressed up differently. Speaking of Mists, what do you imagine all of those dailies at the start of that expansion were all about? Reputations just so you could start reputations with someone else? How is that not gating and designing to keep active players subscribed?

Reputations that dont hold player power are mostly irrelevant, sure they might hold an enchant or too and require 2 weeks of dailies but yeah, you get it.

My point stands as i said before, its highly different when you do it 3 times in a row, and you are faced with the same thing, and something that never really matterd.

To best explain it, my mage alt just dinged, i need to waste something like 20-40 hours played, just to unlock the basic things that are considered player power that were timegated for the main 5 months ago, its simply bad design, especially when i am gonna redo a campaign i already did before.

Not even talking about gear or anything, basic player power from the timegated things the main gotten passively, without even counting the amount of time needed for Torghast and weeklies and all that stuff.

There is a massive difference between the design of things over the years, right now this design thats the 1 char expansion hopper will play till the end of the campaign, aka resub for an extra month at least, is punishing me, someone that hasnt unsubbed in 7 years to play his alt.

[Geckoo]

Because it's the third expansion in a row that they do this kind of stuff: obvious flaws that are pointed out during beta only get fixed on a much later patch when they need to bump the sub numbers. I do not believe this to be an honest response to win my trust back as a customer, it just feels like one more step on their usual business plan. I don't blame them for acting as a business doing business stuff... i blame the method and disrespect towards customers that come with the way they do stuff.

So no matter how good the patch looks (and it does look great), it's simply too late and definitively too little to earn my trust back. If that ever happens, it will have to be with 10.0 and how they respond to player feedback on obvious flaws.

[Newname1234567890]

I did not notice a single positive change in 9.1.5. Every change is net negative to the game. It's a sure way to ruin WoW.

Truly additional Character customisation will be the downfall of wow!!!

[Zoura]

I did not notice a single positive change in 9.1.5. Every change is net negative to the game. It's a sure way to ruin WoW.

Bet you didnt even read the changes, it's all QoL.