Cold Take: M+ Dungeons Are Too Long

[justandulas]

Legion had the best M+ version ever put into WoW. Less tedious, faster paced, and relevant in ways besides just gear and some arbitrary scoring rating. You could really have a good time smashing a +15 in legion.

[Cracked]

Then why the fug are you playing an MMORPG

lmao

I mean I get it. WoW has pretty unique gameplay that is hard to find outside of it. I find it really fun to actually play your character and some specs. There are sadly no other games which build around the same set of rules.

[Gaidax]

"Cold take"

Press X for doubt.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I come to find that generally the people who suck at M+ are usually the ones who complain the most and complain loudly.


It's always "I don't wanna do this" or "I don't wanna do that" types of reasons why. It could usually be summed up to "I don't want to put in the same amount of effort as other people who have success in it, yet still reap rewards."

[Gourbaak]

m+ aren't too long

[Tziva]

I think some length of time is necessary for them to feel like something people should invest effort in, which is an important characteristic to have especially to those of us that pug a lot. If you make them too fast, they start to feel like inconsequential content.

The current time to me is pretty decent, with most runs (that aren't drastically over or undergeared) taking between 30 and 45 minutes. I think that's a pretty good target range.

[Azerate]

M+ runs take too long. The average M+ run shouldn't be tuned around a 40-45 minute experience, but rather 25-30 minute one.

I don't want to do anything with other strangers for more than 30 minutes at a time. It also would make the feeling of reward increase with each successive dungeon run because you didn't just feel like you wasted 45 minutes of your time just to go up 1/10 for your weekly Vault "quest".

Another huge upside would be that since the dungeons would be getting shorter, they could get away with smaller dungeons with less art assets in general, and so you could have a higher amount of dungeons in the game. Instead of 8, we could launch with 12 and get more during patches.

Just do it man. M+ blows.

If you don't want to do the dungeons, just don't do them. Don't ask for them to be shortened because there are people who actually enjoy them. Also, no one forces you to do them with 'strangers', feel free to network/find friends/team/guild to run M+ with. The problem is not with the system, it's with you.

You're fairly new here OP, but you're already among the mmo-c kings of shit takes. Then again, maybe just a new account of an old banned troll.

[potis]

I come to find that generally the people who suck at M+ are usually the ones who complain the most and complain loudly.


It's always "I don't wanna do this" or "I don't wanna do that" types of reasons why. It could usually be summed up to "I don't want to put in the same amount of effort as other people who have success in it, yet still reap rewards."

And then you realize they are talking about a +7 that takes 20mins even on your undergeared alt, and not even about at any half-relevant difficulty content.

Generally, most of the complains from the "decent game systems" is simply by people that cant do them correctly.

[erifwodahs]

M+ runs take too long. The average M+ run shouldn't be tuned around a 40-45 minute experience, but rather 25-30 minute one.

Just do it man. M+ blows.

If you think that if you cut few bosses out and rescale some platforms/corridors/remove trash would give you 4 additional dungeons - lul. You might get ONE dungeon extra. MAYBE. I mean, did you even think about what you said?

"Less art assets" - you do realize that most of the dungeons are using open world assets/models and boss models are used in story quests too.

Also, if you are doing your weekly vault quests and are worried about spending too much time with strangers, I recommend grouping with good people. Literally every dungeon can at +15 2 chested quite easy even with "ok" players so you will get your 25min runs very easy.

[Fenrys]

I do tend to prefer the shorter dungeons. I'm not good at focussing intensely for more than 40 minutes at a time without a break, so for me, that's probably my preferred limit. That being said, the only dungeons which are that long tend to have some degree of downtime (e.g. DoS backtracking) to refocus

[Edward Wu]

If you think that if you cut few bosses out and rescale some platforms/corridors/remove trash would give you 4 additional dungeons - lul. You might get ONE dungeon extra. MAYBE. I mean, did you even think about what you said?

"Less art assets" - you do realize that most of the dungeons are using open world assets/models and boss models are used in story quests too.

Also, if you are doing your weekly vault quests and are worried about spending too much time with strangers, I recommend grouping with good people. Literally every dungeon can at +15 2 chested quite easy even with "ok" players so you will get your 25min runs very easy.

You realize they used to make 2-3 dungeons off one asset package in the past, right?

Scarlet Monastery was divided up into 3 separate dungeons that all heavily shared assets, and I don't remember anyone complaining that is was all "the same". The SM dungeons are some of the most beloved past dungeons in the game, in fact.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about, ironically. The new dungeons are all using completely unique asset packages as they are putting in more effort into them, so we end up getting less of them than in the past. BC also had a lot of overlap, as did Wrath. People clearly preferred that over what we have now, as quantity is also important.

[Nnyco]

Exluding DoS, your runs shouldnt be close to 40min unless youre, you know, shit.

[erifwodahs]

You realize they used to make 2-3 dungeons off one asset package in the past, right?

Scarlet Monastery was divided up into 3 separate dungeons that all heavily shared assets, and I don't remember anyone complaining that is was all "the same". The SM dungeons are some of the most beloved past dungeons in the game, in fact.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about, ironically. The new dungeons are all using completely unique asset packages as they are putting in more effort into them, so we end up getting less of them than in the past. BC also had a lot of overlap, as did Wrath. People clearly preferred that over what we have now, as quantity is also important.

Oh boy. Completely unique - NW is literally a zone from outside, HoA is literally a zone in outside world, Mists is literally zone in outside world, SoA is using all assets from Bastion zones. DoS is using Ardenweald and mechagon assets. ToP and SD have most unique maps but are made out of assets from outside world.

Enemy models, including non end bosses are all just mob models.

How tf are those unique assets? They literally take same stuff they used for world building and use it for the dungeon.

Mega-dungeons are the most unque stuff and that's why they are so cool.

I dare you to prove me that dungeons are using more than 10% unique assets. clown.

[Edward Wu]

I dare you to prove me that dungeons are using more than 10% unique assets. clown.

De Other Side and Mists of Tirna Scythe are 2 dungeons in the same zone but use much more than 10% of unique assets each and share only a minority of assets between each other. From the dungeon environment architecture, to the mobs, to the abilities used by the mobs are all massively different from each other, for the most part. It's blatantly obvious to anyone who's actually played Shadowlands.

Your overall argument is terrible and completely misses my point to pettily move the goalposts because you cannot grasp that the overall difference between De Other Side/Mists and Scarlet Monastery/Scarlet Library is far more massive in the former than in the latter, which was my original and prevailing point - Blizzard has decided to produce a lot more unique assets in total which has forced them to lower the amount of dungeons available, since they are unwilling to liberally share those assets between the dungeons they make.

[Ssateneth]

"with other strangers"

theres your problem. make some friends, group with friends.

[LedZeppelin]

I find that I have a more enjoyable m+ experience when i play with people i can talk with (not exactly revolutionary) and because of that i dont care much about the time spent in the actual dungeon. With raid nights being multiple hours, a 45 min dungeon aint that bad.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I find it kinda exhausting to run 10 dungeons a week. I ended up with 4 and I got similar results with the rewards, which is good. I’m not sure how legion m+ will work but MoS was kinda short one, though I don’t wanna kill Harbaron again. It would make me feel super bad. At least there will be more variety of dungeons to chose from.

[confety]

when i dont play with my friends I spend more time looking for group than doing the dungeon. I think its fine, and i HATE m+, i only do them at the beggining of the expansion, then roll with raid gear and catch up mechanics, m+ is not needed to be done.

[klaps_05]

Looking at average full timer and assuming an average run finishes with 2 min left, this is how dungeons look like:

Legion
Avg timer: 35
Avg completion: 33

BFA
Avg timer: 36
Avg completion: 34

Shadowlands
Avg timer: 37
Avg completion: 35

This doesnt take into consideration ofc that some dungeons u had 10 min left like Junkyard, lower kara or plaguefall, or some super tight ones like KR, DHT or TOP. Its interesting that overall blizz wants the dungeon to be about 3% slower expac-on-expac.

Would be fun to see if someone exports the top 100k runs for each dungeon legion to now and looks at the overall completions in time to expand on the above as blizz most likely judges by both data sets (above to judge their design and actual data for adjustments).

[erifwodahs]

De Other Side and Mists of Tirna Scythe are 2 dungeons in the same zone but use much more than 10% of unique assets each and share only a minority of assets between each other. From the dungeon environment architecture, to the mobs, to the abilities used by the mobs are all massively different from each other, for the most part. It's blatantly obvious to anyone who's actually played Shadowlands.

Your overall argument is terrible and completely misses my point to pettily move the goalposts because you cannot grasp that the overall difference between De Other Side/Mists and Scarlet Monastery/Scarlet Library is far more massive in the former than in the latter, which was my original and prevailing point - Blizzard has decided to produce a lot more unique assets in total which has forced them to lower the amount of dungeons available, since they are unwilling to liberally share those assets between the dungeons they make.

MoTS is literally outdoor zone using mob models from world content. Look at the map. you can literally fly over there. DoS is using ardenweald assets and models, mechagon mob models and assets. They are using Hakkar and Zuldazard/Bwomsamdi temple reshaded assets. Muezala is unique boss model but it is also used in questing.

I am not putting as a bad thing by the way, I love the dungeons because those are good dungeons, but if you think they develop UNIQUE dungeon assets... how delusional are you? "If they did not make so many unique models for each dungeon" well, then they might as well reuse all old assets to build new expansion zones because they literally use world building blocks to build dungeons, but hey, I don't think you even play the game if you don't see where the assets have been use before. Clown