Poll: Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

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  1. #181
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's just so tiring to have any discussion about it. How can you talk about the fallout and repercussions of these massive events when you conflate them to the same magnitude of everything else that has happened?

    Like come on, wasting time trying to explain why it's not the same makes the whole thing a bad faith argument from the get go. Do I really have to explain why the radical difference on loss of life and magnitude of the destruction makes both things not comparable

    We can talk about how The Purge of Dalaran was a war crime without having to compare it to Teldrassil, specially without clowns saying "Um actually, the Purge as more of a genocide than Teldrassil, technically speaking."
    The events are not of the same magnitude, with the burning of Teldrassil absolutely being worse since an entire city was destroyed. Teldrassil had more casualties on each side of the conflict as well. The burning was an atrocious act of war. The Purge was an atrocious act of genocide, resulting in an unknown number of exclusively Blood Elf casualties. It is disingenous to believe no comparison can be made between the two events when both can at least loosely be termed genocides, and were ill-concieved acts of desperation. It is pretty messed up to downplay the impact of one atrocity due to it not resulting in nearly as much destruction though. An atrocity is still an atrocity after some arguably worse event happens.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    Teldrassil itself was the target, as opposed to any specific species living there,
    What do you mean? She did it to kill the people there so the jailer would have more souls in the Maw

  3. #183
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose184 View Post
    What do you mean? She did it to kill the people there so the jailer would have more souls in the Maw
    Which means that there was no priority in who to kill, and therefore not a genocide targeting Night Elves as occasionally claimed.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Real question tho, do the people that call the Purge of Dalaran a genocide actually believe it's the same magnitude of atrocity than the Burning of Teldrassil, or are they being disingenuous?
    Growing rather sick of this... GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF SCALE. Yes, Teldrassil is a tragedy of insane magnitude, with far reaching consequences and arguably irrepairable damage nobody ever disputed that, but it does not fit the criteria of Genocide just like Hiroshima never did, just like Nagasaki never did. Just like countless other cities starved, bombarded, etc during wartime never were. It's not a denominator or measure of the scale of an event and it never was.


    What sets Genocide apart, from an ordinary tragedy is that it's efforts specifically intended to wipe out specifically singled out people group. (Orcs seeking to wipe out the Dreanei, Jaina purging Blood Elves from Dalaran, Greymane sterilising the Forsaken are things that could legitimately be labeled as Genocide within WoW)

  5. #185
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Alleria is best waifu in game she wont do no such things.. besides if sylvanas ends up dying ill need a new waifu
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Growing rather sick of this... GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF SCALE. Yes, Teldrassil is a tragedy of insane magnitude, with far reaching consequences and arguably irrepairable damage nobody ever disputed that, but it does not fit the criteria of Genocide just like Hiroshima never did, just like Nagasaki never did. Just like countless other cities starved, bombarded, etc during wartime never were. It's not a denominator or measure of the scale of an event and it never was.


    What sets Genocide apart, from an ordinary tragedy is that it's efforts specifically intended to wipe out specifically singled out people group. (Orcs seeking to wipe out the Dreanei, Jaina purging Blood Elves from Dalaran, Greymane sterilising the Forsaken are things that could legitimately be labeled as Genocide within WoW)
    Good thing most Sunreavers were placed inside the Violet Hold, since the purpose of the Kirin Tor Government was never to wipe them out.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    The events are not of the same magnitude, with the burning of Teldrassil absolutely being worse since an entire city was destroyed. Teldrassil had more casualties on each side of the conflict as well. The burning was an atrocious act of war. The Purge was an atrocious act of genocide, resulting in an unknown number of exclusively Blood Elf casualties. It is disingenous to believe no comparison can be made between the two events when both can at least loosely be termed genocides, and were ill-concieved acts of desperation. It is pretty messed up to downplay the impact of one atrocity due to it not resulting in nearly as much destruction though. An atrocity is still an atrocity after some arguably worse event happens.
    You are literally doing the "uhm well technically genocide is..." BS. My point is literally about the magnitude of difference between both events and you are exactly doing the thing of trying to say which one is more of a genocide. Come on man. My point is that discusing what is a genocide or not is irrelevant when the magnitude of impact between Teldrassil and Dalaran are far different and is disingenuous to compare them on any scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Growing rather sick of this... GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF SCALE. Yes, Teldrassil is a tragedy of insane magnitude, with far reaching consequences and arguably irrepairable damage nobody ever disputed that, but it does not fit the criteria of Genocide just like Hiroshima never did, just like Nagasaki never did. Just like countless other cities starved, bombarded, etc during wartime never were. It's not a denominator or measure of the scale of an event and it never was.


    What sets Genocide apart, from an ordinary tragedy is that it's efforts specifically intended to wipe out specifically singled out people group. (Orcs seeking to wipe out the Dreanei, Jaina purging Blood Elves from Dalaran, Greymane sterilising the Forsaken are things that could legitimately be labeled as Genocide within WoW)
    But the problem is that not even by the purge of Dalaran was a genocide! The point is that people keep getting bogged down on what is the "technical" definition of a genocide and keep missing the point of the difference in magnitudes. It's just disingenuous to bring one event in relation to the other.

    The whole point is that people keep playing the "But this is actually a genocide" card when the whole issue is about what had a biggest impact in terms of magnitude. The problem is the constant "This is worse because it is a genocide" BS.

    And again, not even the Purge of Dalaran was a genocide. The goal was to expel political opposition, not eradicate a group of people. Teldrassil is considered a genocide because the magnitud of the attack to the center of NE culture, not because Sylvanas just wanted to eradicate them. Regardless of any of that, the whole issue is forcing the comparison when Teldrassil is just plainly a worse lost of life than the Purge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    Which means that there was no priority in who to kill, and therefore not a genocide targeting Night Elves as occasionally claimed.
    The whole "It's not technically a genocide because she didn't have the intention!" Is the whole problem of this take. It's a whole obfuscation of the issue of what is a worse event, plain and simple.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Good thing most Sunreavers were placed inside the Violet Hold, since the purpose of the Kirin Tor Government was never to wipe them out.
    They were only attacking them on sight and hanging them over shark pools... Where Jaina's orders end and Vereesa's begin is never made clear during the scenario.



    (I know this is one of those Blizzard telling something and showing something else situations)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But the problem is that not even by the purge of Dalaran was a genocide! The point is that people keep getting bogged down on what is the "technical" definition of a genocide and keep missing the point of the difference in magnitudes. It's just disingenuous to bring one event in relation to the other.
    Then why are you bringing up Teldrassil, in a thread, which has nothing to do with it?

    The whole point is that people keep playing the "But this is actually a genocide" card when the whole issue is about what had a biggest impact in terms of magnitude. The problem is the constant "This is worse because it is a genocide" BS.
    Genocide is not a matter of scale or even physical harm, but actions taken under the intent of eliminating a people. Using Genocide as a denominator of scale or overall impact is tone deaf and disingenuous.

    And again, not even the Purge of Dalaran was a genocide. The goal was to expel political opposition, not eradicate a group of people. Teldrassil is considered a genocide because the magnitud of the attack to the center of NE culture, not because Sylvanas just wanted to eradicate them. Regardless of any of that, the whole issue is forcing the comparison when Teldrassil is just plainly a worse lost of life than the Purge.
    This is fishy, because it doesn't really translate well. The political divisions of Warcraft are, in a majority of cases represented by different races/species. So the elimination of all blood elves, from Dalaran is something that can be counted as a genocide. (There is a grey area, with some of the devs later coming out saying that it's come off way worse than they intended, in game so there is ground to argue that they meant to make it more of a dispersion than a killing spree)

    Attack on a culture is not genocide. Scale of destruction doesn't constitute genocide. You're the one that made the comparison and you're the one that brought it up, as Aliance whataboutists tend to, in a thread that has nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-11-21 at 12:13 AM.

  9. #189
    She went there to kill all the night elves. That's the definition of genocide.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Then why are you bringing up Teldrassil, in a thread, which has nothing to do with it?
    Because people were bringing it up.


    Genocide is not a matter of scale or even physical harm, but actions taken under the intent of eliminating a people. Using Genocide as a denominator of scale or overall impact is tone deaf and disingenuous.
    Which is why the conversation about what is or not genocide is pointless. The Problem is that everytime people call Tedrassil a genocide as shorthand to get across its impact -innacurate but understandable- we get the derail of "Well it's not technically a genocide" -even when the game itself refers as such, because the game IS working with the more simplistic "a WHOLE lot of people were killed" definition- which is just a derailing of the actual devastation of Teldrassil.

    That's the problem, fixating on the technicality of what is a genocide when it's more semantics than anything.

    This is fishy, because it doesn't really translate well. The political divisions of Warcraft are, in a majority of cases represented by different races/species. So the elimination of all blood elves, from Dalaran is something that can be counted as a genocide. (There is a grey area, with some of the devs later coming out saying that it's come off way worse than they intended, in game so there is ground to argue that they meant to make it more of a dispersion than a killing spree)

    Attack on a culture is not genocide. Scale of destruction doesn't constitute genocide. You're the one that made the comparison and you're the one that brought it up, as Aliance whataboutists tend to, in a thread that has nothing to do with it.
    Given that the major enforcers of the Purge were the same race than blood elves, only with political differences, would make clear that it wasn't genocide, but expulsion of a political party. Yet again, it's the constant fixation on what is and what is not a genocide is disingenuous, because the constant "well Teldrassil isn't technically genocide" comes across as nothing but derailment of the actual point being made.

    Your post is just evident of that, all you do is keep harping on the definition and technicality, on semantics, instead of any quantitative approach of harm. And it's just very tiring that everytime people use the word "genocide" to say "a lot of people of a race died" rather than focus on the technicality of definition, people like you go all "uhm actually" when it matters literally nothing to the conversation.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Genocide is not a matter of scale or even physical harm, but actions taken under the intent of eliminating a people. Using Genocide as a denominator of scale or overall impact is tone deaf and disingenuous.
    By that definition, Dalaran doesn't count. Sunreavers are still considered Thalassians and Blood Elves both by race and ethnicity, and religion did not play a relevant role.

    On the other hand, Teldrassil very much does, since Sylvanas set it on fire to kill the Night Elves. Not to burn the tree, that was just a means.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Because people were bringing it up.




    Which is why the conversation about what is or not genocide is pointless. The Problem is that everytime people call Tedrassil a genocide as shorthand to get across its impact -innacurate but understandable- we get the derail of "Well it's not technically a genocide" -even when the game itself refers as such, because the game IS working with the more simplistic "a WHOLE lot of people were killed" definition- which is just a derailing of the actual devastation of Teldrassil.

    That's the problem, fixating on the technicality of what is a genocide when it's more semantics than anything.



    Given that the major enforcers of the Purge were the same race than blood elves, only with political differences, would make clear that it wasn't genocide, but expulsion of a political party. Yet again, it's the constant fixation on what is and what is not a genocide is disingenuous, because the constant "well Teldrassil isn't technically genocide" comes across as nothing but derailment of the actual point being made.

    Your post is just evident of that, all you do is keep harping on the definition and technicality, on semantics, instead of any quantitative approach of harm. And it's just very tiring that everytime people use the word "genocide" to say "a lot of people of a race died" rather than focus on the technicality of definition, people like you go all "uhm actually" when it matters literally nothing to the conversation.
    It's not a technicality. Teldrassil objectively is not something that can be classed, as a genocide. It's not a matter of feelings, opinions or other subjective nonsense. It'S not a denominator of how violent something was nor of the scale. Terms like these should not be thrown about arbitrarily, because it's one of the most monstrous things that someone can commit. I'm not going to pretend to know why Blizzard elected to use the term, because the possibilities range from them being tone deaf to them using connotations of real tragedies to make the events, in order to market their videogame.



    There is no point bringing up Teldrasil in 90% of the threads it appears in outside of hollow whataboutism attempting to derail the debate. It's a huge blow to the Darnassians, which they might never recover from spare some magical mumbo jumbo, but to put it bluntly bombarding a settlement into submission or ruin is a tactic as old as human ability to throw big rocks long distances, in fact that's how actual sieges work.

  13. #193
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Depends on perspective, as far as Alleria and Vereesa are concerned, their people betrayed them when they sided with the "monsters" (the Orcs) that destroyed their home.

    As for Valeera, she never really had a home among the High Elves, her parents were killed by bandits when she was very young and she has no family left, and the scourge invaded around the same time - she never got to know her homeland. Just because they are the same race doesn't make them "her people"... She's seen more kindness from the Alliance than the Blood Elves and the Horde, and she rightly views that as being more important than racial ties to a people she never knew and have never lifted a finger to help her.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2021-11-21 at 02:04 AM.
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  14. #194
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    By that definition, Dalaran doesn't count. Sunreavers are still considered Thalassians and Blood Elves both by race and ethnicity, and religion did not play a relevant role.

    On the other hand, Teldrassil very much does, since Sylvanas set it on fire to kill the Night Elves. Not to burn the tree, that was just a means.
    "Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part." The purging of Blood Elves from Dalaran absolutely was a genocide, even if they share the same blood as the traitorous elves that eradicated them.

    If Sylvanas' intent was to specifically annhilate Night Elves, and/or their Worgen cohabitants, then it counts as well. As I understand it though, she was just aiming to maximise casualties on all sides.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    By that definition, Dalaran doesn't count. Sunreavers are still considered Thalassians and Blood Elves both by race and ethnicity, and religion did not play a relevant role.

    On the other hand, Teldrassil very much does, since Sylvanas set it on fire to kill the Night Elves. Not to burn the tree, that was just a means.
    Teldrassil was motivated by some nonsense about crushing hope.

    And the specific groups counted as targets of genocide are national, ethnical, racial or religious. The Sunweavers clearly fit the national classification the best here. Leading us neatly back to the OT if you argue they're still Thalassians then they owe Quel'thalas alegience, in which case they're all guilty of high treason.
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-11-21 at 02:06 AM.

  16. #196
    No, they're not traitors. The high elf/blood elf thing is a political rift. I'm sure they're traitors in each others' eyes though.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    "Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part." The purging of Blood Elves from Dalaran absolutely was a genocide, even if they share the same blood as the traitorous elves that eradicated them.

    If Sylvanas' intent was to specifically annhilate Night Elves, and/or their Worgen cohabitants, then it counts as well. As I understand it though, she was just aiming to maximise casualties on all sides.
    One teeny tiny itty bitty problem with your "Dalaran absolutely was a genocide."

    THE PURGE WAS NOT TO DESTROY THE SUNREAVERS BUT TO IMPRISON THEM AS (collective) PUNISHMENT FOR BREAKING DALARAN NEUTRALITY POLICY!
    For fuck sake, why is it that so many haven't played both sides of this bloody scenario? Alliance side show that the entire thing is to capture the Sunreavers so they can get to the bottom of who worked for Garrosh, and killing them should only be a last resort.
    Of course, there were some gungho racist alliance adventurers that just wanted to kill elves for funsies as the Horde version shows, but they were outliers.

    Heck, Isle of Thunder even confirms that the Alliance side depiction (in which jaina just freeze and tp's belves away) is the canon depiction because Lorthemar demands of Jaina to release the Sunreaver prisoners.
    If the horde depiction was the entire truth and it was your lovely definitional genoside, then there wouldn't be any freaking prisoners.

  18. #198
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odinfrost View Post
    One teeny tiny itty bitty problem with your "Dalaran absolutely was a genocide."

    THE PURGE WAS NOT TO DESTROY THE SUNREAVERS BUT TO IMPRISON THEM AS (collective) PUNISHMENT FOR BREAKING DALARAN NEUTRALITY POLICY!
    For fuck sake, why is it that so many haven't played both sides of this bloody scenario? Alliance side show that the entire thing is to capture the Sunreavers so they can get to the bottom of who worked for Garrosh, and killing them should only be a last resort.
    Of course, there were some gungho racist alliance adventurers that just wanted to kill elves for funsies as the Horde version shows, but they were outliers.

    Heck, Isle of Thunder even confirms that the Alliance side depiction (in which jaina just freeze and tp's belves away) is the canon depiction because Lorthemar demands of Jaina to release the Sunreaver prisoners.
    If the horde depiction was the entire truth and it was your lovely definitional genoside, then there wouldn't be any freaking prisoners.
    They captured some, slaughtered others in the street, chased them throughout Pandaria and wherever else with the clear intent to remove them all from their Dalaran home for good. Thanks to Lorthemar all those who wound up in the Violet Hold still breathing were eventually set free to go anywhere except back to their home in the Sunreaver's Sanctuary. Anyone who fought back against that insane, vindictive frost mage either succesfully fled the city or else was murdered. Those that got locked up were spared for the moment because they complied and surrendered, but would have surely still been murdered had Lorthemar not managed to miraculously talk sense into Jaina. During the Purge, the Silver Covenant also robbed and slaughtered Sunreaver/Blood Elven civilians serving as shopkeepers and whatnot. Many more would've died on the spot, or been incarcerated and dealt with later, had it not been for the righteous fury of Rommath, Lorthemar, and their comrades among the ranks of the Farstriders and Magisters. Elements of both scenarios are canon by the way, and contrary to your assumption, I did do the Alliance version while Mists was live. Furthermore, if you think targeting solely a specific group to lock them away either indefinitely or to await an unjust execution, does not negate it constituting genocide. If you honestly believe your bit about there not being "any freaking prisoners", then you might want to brush up on some history and the definition of "genocide." The marginalised group doesn't have to be readily exterminated. Since removal is the goal, they can simply be forced into undesirable living conditions such as in prisons or labour camps.

    Still stings that Jaina never acknowledged how unjustified her actions were, given that no Sunreavers ever betrayed Dalaran before being targeted during the Purge and acting out in self-defense, nor did she ever apologize. This bit ain't relevant to the thread, but her being ousted from the council just isn't good enough for my mage.
    Last edited by saintminya; 2021-11-21 at 04:53 AM.

  19. #199
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    No more than the entire Blood Elf faction are traitors to the alliance.
    the Alliance abandoned Quel'thalas and left them at the mercy of the Amani, Scourge, and the Wretched for 6 years; if anything the Alliance are the traitors

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    nvm this is a necropost

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Fourth War hadn't started yet when the Ren'dorei joined the Alliance.
    eh, I'm still adamant that the Fourth War started when Varian declared war in the Undercity and what happened after Garrosh was deposed was just a simple truce
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  20. #200
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    All elves are traitors
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

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