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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Sin of Pride View Post
    You don't need the best loot drops just pop some kort catch up gear and run it. Your average 15 running wow player is only playing their class 60-70% effectively to start with...hell it isn't even that hard to usually be near top of the meters without a leggo.

    Just be good at the game.
    I didn't know I could just write "I'm good at the game" and be invited into +15 PUGs with no M+ rating or gear. I need to try that sometime.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    And that's exactly why Mythic raiding is more difficult than M+. You are not playing a single player game; what YOU can or cannot do in any given moment is irrelevant; YOU being able to do mechanics flawlessly is irrelevant. In any multiplayer game, the difficulty stems from the need to have a group of players simultaneously performing well enough to beat the content - and it's simply easier to have 5 players on top of their game than to have 20. No dungeon mechanic is more difficult or complicated than a raid mechanic (if anything, dungeon mechanics are often simplified versions of raid mechanics). Infinite scaling of M+ doesn't change much - as long as things aren't mathematically impossible to beat, it's still just "doing mechanics".

    Kicking a ball straight is not that difficult either, but it doesn't make a football team. In any group sport, the biggest challenge is to make up for those who are not as good as the rest or are simply having a bad day. And the risk of having players who are not on top of their game is always bigger in a group of 20 than it is in a group of 5, where you can cherry pick the best of the best. Pretending those logistics don't exist is equivalent to not understading how group content works and where the challenges lie. Hint: the challenge is not in stepping out of fire that kills you.
    You just agreed with what i said, raiding is not difficult for YOU as a player, m+ is far more complex in the things you need to know.

    I mean in a raid there is often pictures of how you will stand as a group. where you will drop things. every time you run a dungeon with a tank you dont know how hes going to pull, whether he is going to los etc so you have to adjust with near every pull in a dungeon on the fly.

    Example being necrotic wake as you cross the bridge i have seen tanks face those cleaving mobs forwards, backwards, left and right. 1 very simple double pack needs 2 interupts and to watch the position of the tank, ive seen tanks for no reason turn thos mobs resulting in dead mellee. whos to blame? arguement for both sides, if your a top m+ player you are ready for the possible death dealing positional move. if not then well, your dead. flip side why does the tank randomly move position? no need.

    The smallest pull in nw a 20+ Pull dungeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Considering I am a few places from world top 40, I disagree. I find keys stupid easy compared to raids. If you can do a +19 mechanically fine, you can do a 25. If you struggle it’s because you can’t focus for long enough. It’s basically the same pulls, so master a 19, you can master a 25 (if you have the gear). Not a bad thing, some people just don’t have that.

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    I dunno if someone that has never got a cutting edge, which can be done by a group of sub classes (if they can play well, they can do it. Unlike keys like you mention yourself, needs a FOTM), can comment on the differences between raids and keys.

    I dunno if someone that has never got a cutting edge, which can be done by a group of sub classes (if they can play well, they can do it. Unlike keys like you mention yourself, needs a FOTM), can comment on the differences between raids and keys.
    19s you can still eat mechanics, 24s you wont be able to. your close to top 40 world thats really cool, i am a similar player to you, i mean my druid is top 60 or something? idk. dead class so it doesnt mean as much, the reason i rerolled is druid actually hinders a partys chances of 24 keys in time due to its lack of dps.

    Of course the unknowing noobs will say "bUT dRUID cAN pUMP dPS tOO" yes it can by sitting in cat/boomie form and not doing any hps, but its nothing on a shaman which can effortlessly, and i mean effortlessly do 5kdps overall while also not needing to waste that gcd repeatidly switching forms.

    Already approaching 2.2k on shaman 9 day old toon 235 ilvl equipped. EFFORTLESS.

    P.s i have cutting edge garrosh and raided a lot of mythic stuff before m+ came out after that raiding completely died for me.

    raid logs for the last time i raided properly.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...one=5&new=true

    to a casual those logs would look like a brag, to a top player those logs are rookie numbers. 99 or scrub.
    Last edited by odamienskii; 2021-09-03 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    Now, here is the part that people dont understand, hardcore players will play mythic raids AND m+, so they can get 250+ilvl in a matter of 2/3 weeks.
    Not really. In raids, loot drops are kinda rare. So after 3 weeks mythic raiding and lets say 18 Bosskills you might have been lucky and got 2 items from that raidbosses. For example i got my first mythic raidloot afert 17 bosskills in mythic -.-

    M+ is interesting for the great vault. 2k raitng after 3 weeks is possible, but you will still be short on valor points to upgrade stuff to 246. So after 3 weeks you got maybe 2 lootpieces from the raidbosses (if you kill enough of them) and maybe 3 loots from the great vault, thats it.

    Not to mention that this great vault garbage is complete rng. 2 Shoulders and 1 chest out of gv for m+ is real.... And the great vault even blocks loot options. You can choose 1 piece of gear, with bad luck you get stuff you simply dont need or get stuff more than 1 times or simply crap stats.

    I preferred the old system vault = m+, raidloot = raidloot with bonus rolls way more than this timesink option garbage.

  4. #104
    i love it when people like OP use the excuse :
    "Make rare items rare
    make epic items epic, near everyone has a bag full of epics like they are grey, ahh need to sell all this crap in my bag (PURPLES!!!!!!!)
    make legendary items ..........legendary
    EVERYONE has a legendary, god damn everyone! remember when 1 or 2 ppl on your server had glaives? hes so lucky! im gonna keep attending raids hopefully il be in the 0.01%, if the current team at blizzard were in charge back then EVERYONE WOULD HAVE HAD GLAIVES, do you not see how that would make the whole sense of wonder around them die instantly?"
    Remember when gear meant something specially legendaries and then wow classic came out and almost everyone had sulfuras/thunderfuries? yeah you dont miss the "gear being gear" you miss being a snowflake that has orange and purple color in your UI and people whispering and inspecting you x)

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Zigrifid View Post
    i love it when people like OP use the excuse :
    "Make rare items rare
    make epic items epic, near everyone has a bag full of epics like they are grey, ahh need to sell all this crap in my bag (PURPLES!!!!!!!)
    make legendary items ..........legendary
    EVERYONE has a legendary, god damn everyone! remember when 1 or 2 ppl on your server had glaives? hes so lucky! im gonna keep attending raids hopefully il be in the 0.01%, if the current team at blizzard were in charge back then EVERYONE WOULD HAVE HAD GLAIVES, do you not see how that would make the whole sense of wonder around them die instantly?"
    Remember when gear meant something specially legendaries and then wow classic came out and almost everyone had sulfuras/thunderfuries? yeah you dont miss the "gear being gear" you miss being a snowflake that has orange and purple color in your UI and people whispering and inspecting you x)
    No, what i miss is the players that are dedicated to the game enough to learn there class and put the effort in to be visible, i mean imagine if you could inspect people and see now the difference between the casuals and the nolifers? m+ would be a lot easier to form a good grp.

    I dont remember the last time i inspected someone tbh. it just doesnt happen anymore because EVERYONE is free geared.

    People who give a shit tend to play better, its common sense. sorry if this hurts your feelings as someone that dont give a crap if they underperform and that is exactly who is getting butthurt in this thread, the people that turn up to an 18key and do 5k overall dps in 245 but thats ok, its just a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    Not really. In raids, loot drops are kinda rare. So after 3 weeks mythic raiding and lets say 18 Bosskills you might have been lucky and got 2 items from that raidbosses. For example i got my first mythic raidloot afert 17 bosskills in mythic -.-

    M+ is interesting for the great vault. 2k raitng after 3 weeks is possible, but you will still be short on valor points to upgrade stuff to 246. So after 3 weeks you got maybe 2 lootpieces from the raidbosses (if you kill enough of them) and maybe 3 loots from the great vault, thats it.

    Not to mention that this great vault garbage is complete rng. 2 Shoulders and 1 chest out of gv for m+ is real.... And the great vault even blocks loot options. You can choose 1 piece of gear, with bad luck you get stuff you simply dont need or get stuff more than 1 times or simply crap stats.

    I preferred the old system vault = m+, raidloot = raidloot with bonus rolls way more than this timesink option garbage.
    i did notice they took out the bad luck protection of 20% per boss. that sucks tbh. but it still doesnt effect the gearing process so much because there is so many options elsewhere. 1800 in rbgs gives 239
    Last edited by odamienskii; 2021-09-03 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    You just agreed with what i said, raiding is not difficult for YOU as a player, m+ is far more complex in the things you need to know.
    No, I didn't agree - especially with the premise. It doesn't matter if it's easy for YOU as a player, because you never raid as YOU; you raid Mythic with 19 other people. Comparing mechanics of Mythic raids and M+ in a void is pointless; it doesn't matter which is harder mechanic wise. What matters is the actual group ability to do the content. Try a mental exercise and imagine you can scale Painsmith to any number of players, from 5 to 1000. Then, answer a couple of simple questions:
    - Do you think Echo (or any other CE guild) would need so many pulls to kill Painsmith in a group of 5?
    - Do you think a group of 1000 would ever be able to kill the boss?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    M+ requires more skill than Mythic raiding so I’m fine with that, especially the higher up you go, because then you get exposed if you don’t interrupt or cc.
    I completely disagree. A +15 is 100x easier than Mythic raiding. We won't even consider the fact that is is harder to organize (and find) 20 mythic level people and get them to show up and raid each week consistently (as compared to 5).

    I have run a +15 where people have made tons of mistakes (missed interupts etc), some were undergeared and we didn't even know the optimal route. We still timed them.

    You wouldn't be successful against mythic bosses in raids rolling in like that. All you really need to know for a m+ is: route, interupts and don't stand in stuff. It's like fighting against the simplest raid boss ever.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    If the entire raid is competent absolutely. The only challenging part about Mythic raiding is progressing when you have a couple players that always seem to toaster out, which seems to be the case for most guilds that aren't like top 100 to 200. Mythic Sire is a good example. There's like 3 things on that fight that are one shots; messing up the lines (p1), getting hit by lines (p2, p3), and getting knocked off the level (p2, p3). And while I hardly ever died to those mechanics I had to endure a couple people dying to that shit every pull, and usually always the same handful of people. The fight wasn't hard though. It was literally don't stand in the bad, and don't run into each other in p3.
    "mythic raid eaier then M+15" no wonder the race ot world first took a week to complete, but M+20's were being done day 1.

  9. #109
    I dont know about the numbers, but agree, gearing up in SL is easy compared to all other expansions except BfA and Legion.

    The big reason is mythic+ which wasnt a thing before said expansion, and the Great Vault.

    I think its in a good spot though, personally.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    No, what i miss is the players that are dedicated to the game enough to learn there class and put the effort in to be visible, i mean imagine if you could inspect people and see now the difference between the casuals and the nolifers? m+ would be a lot easier to form a good grp.

    I dont remember the last time i inspected someone tbh. it just doesnt happen anymore because EVERYONE is free geared.

    People who give a shit tend to play better, its common sense. sorry if this hurts your feelings as someone that dont give a crap if they underperform and that is exactly who is getting butthurt in this thread, the people that turn up to an 18key and do 5k overall dps in 245 but thats ok, its just a game.

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    i did notice they took out the bad luck protection of 20% per boss. that sucks tbh. but it still doesnt effect the gearing process so much because there is so many options elsewhere. 1800 in rbgs gives 239
    I just think that the gear doesn't matter as much as you think it does. I was doing H Sanctum the other day and noticed that on of the healers seemed better than we usually run with. When I ran the log- they were 208, way under what they should be.

    I have also seen plenty of players 240+ not doing so well.

    I think they give away so much free gear now for a couple of reasons: the game is not about gear at all (the devs have stated this literally a million times over yet players are still hyper focused on shinies), if you don't get any gear/ meaningful prize most people will stop playing figuring they have reached the "end" of advancement and the game is really supposed to be about getting a group with your friends and having a fun night killing some bosses.

    Don't underestimate that last point. The devs have said this is a social game/ universe. They want you to be able to group with your friends and advance your character. That will not happen if no one has gear.

    So, if the devs want their design for their game they made to be viable- players have to have gear. So they make sure you do.

    Free gear is not making players bad- most people in the world are just lazy. They won't "get good!" if you don't give them gear- they will just continue to be their lazy selves. Most players never look up a strat, a rotation or even BIS or best stat. They are playing a game after work or school and they don't want to do more "work."

    There is no way to design around "people being people" or by forcing people to do something. It is best to design by incorporating the fact that people will be people. You will be more successful that way. Try to get people to change and you might as well just walk over to the wall and start smashing your head into it.......

  11. #111
    Honestly, I enjoy gear in TBC and classic. Feels more rewarding raiding karazhan.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    I just think that the gear doesn't matter as much as you think it does. I was doing H Sanctum the other day and noticed that on of the healers seemed better than we usually run with. When I ran the log- they were 208, way under what they should be.

    I have also seen plenty of players 240+ not doing so well.

    I think they give away so much free gear now for a couple of reasons: the game is not about gear at all (the devs have stated this literally a million times over yet players are still hyper focused on shinies), if you don't get any gear/ meaningful prize most people will stop playing figuring they have reached the "end" of advancement and the game is really supposed to be about getting a group with your friends and having a fun night killing some bosses.

    Don't underestimate that last point. The devs have said this is a social game/ universe. They want you to be able to group with your friends and advance your character. That will not happen if no one has gear.

    So, if the devs want their design for their game they made to be viable- players have to have gear. So they make sure you do.

    Free gear is not making players bad- most people in the world are just lazy. They won't "get good!" if you don't give them gear- they will just continue to be their lazy selves. Most players never look up a strat, a rotation or even BIS or best stat. They are playing a game after work or school and they don't want to do more "work."

    There is no way to design around "people being people" or by forcing people to do something. It is best to design by incorporating the fact that people will be people. You will be more successful that way. Try to get people to change and you might as well just walk over to the wall and start smashing your head into it.......
    Oh i agree mate, understanding the game is more important, my point is everyone gets excited about the possibility of an upgrade, whether you admit it or not, this is no different to no lifers, my point is the problem top end players or no lifers have is they max out in gear way too fast giving the feeling of nothing worth playing for unless of course your pushing high m+ which leaves a choice, reroll or unsub.

    In previous expansions there would be a catchup mechanic, i remember the feeling of all the noobs being able to go normal raid to get the gear more serious players worked hard to obtain over a few months but it was part and parcel of it. now its everyone is given the rights to the highest gear which does the health of the game no good, not because filthy casuals are getting easy gear, but no lifers are maxing out way too fast due to the bar being lowered to suit playes that frankly dont deserve to have 252 bis trinkets to then go into +15 and do 4k single target dps.

    All being said and done, what good has squishing the gear and making it free for all done for the game? the answer is nothing at all.

    There was nothing wrong with the model how it was, rares being rare, epics being epic and legendaries being 1 person out of hundreds having the LEGENDARY item. you know, the clue is kind of in the name. when everyone has a legendary its not so legendary anymore....is it.

    I was never someone that got something like glaives, or ashes, or anything of the like. but that sense of wow what a lucky guy, thats amazing was a completely different feel to "ah you ran torghast gz" at the minute i look around the game and what do i have to wow about and wish for? nothing at all. everything is handed to you on a silver platter. which gives it no value or sense of excitement.

    Legion legendaries, maybe the last fully enjoyable expansion? 4 weeks of grinding for a drop of lego, the noise it made when it dropped, that feeling of pure sadness or absolute joy, looooong wait + a bit of rng......better feeling.

    I just got 252 changeling in my first weekly fault and felt nothing at all. just meh. wonder what item il get next week to meh about.
    Last edited by odamienskii; 2021-09-04 at 06:51 AM.

  13. #113
    So tldr: OP got in trouble in his guild for being under geared or lack of skill and now has to vent his frustration saying it’s the game’s fault and he could gear easily if he wanted to


    All while acting like anyone who disagrees doesn’t know how the game is played

    You should apply to the WoW systems team since you have the ego and stubbornness down. Heck you even have a giant post talking about how the game works while being completely wrong

  14. #114
    Glorifying Legion that gave you free Titanforging gear running +2 maws all day long.. What a silly goose

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    No doubt some people going to come in here and say "iTS bEEN pROVEN hARDER mORE gRINDY cONTENT mAKES pPPL uNSUB mORE" i say well if thats the case how come the grindfest that is final fantasy is overtaking wow???? answer me that???
    It is because you think raiding is important in mmo. FF is story driven and social. WoW is raid log only, or if you want to be competitive in raiding you need to do many chores alone. I don't count guild runs of 5 man as mmo experience.

    Players don't quit cause content is hard or that loot is given easily. They quit cause there are actual mmos out there, and better single player games.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I didn't know I could just write "I'm good at the game" and be invited into +15 PUGs with no M+ rating or gear. I need to try that sometime.
    You can't wow players are extremely untrusting and few are competent. You have to make your own group and level your own key. Only hard part is the 9-13 hurdle.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Morssoe View Post
    It is because you think raiding is important in mmo. FF is story driven and social. WoW is raid log only, or if you want to be competitive in raiding you need to do many chores alone. I don't count guild runs of 5 man as mmo experience.

    Players don't quit cause content is hard or that loot is given easily. They quit cause there are actual mmos out there, and better single player games.
    Exactly what im saying in my post? you legit bypass 8 expansions of storyline in 20hours by sitting in a major city clicking "find random dungeon" do you not see my point? they handed leveling to players on a free fast and easy process. takes hours to get to max level. while most will say "i dont want to spend days leveling" what they dont realise is when leveling took a long time you had the storyline to enjoy as you explored dangerous zones. now nothing is dangerous because the world changes to suit your level so you cant go wandering into a dangerous zone and them 5 quests you did saw you jump up 2 levels so now its time for the next zone.

    All your left with is 10x soulless alts that you have no feeling towards because they were handed to you for free.

    Ive recently leveled a shaman, i feel nothing towards it. i feel like im logging into the wrong class every time i log in. oh wow 15kdps on every trash pack, thats not overpowered at all, i fully deserved this level of power......not

    If you win an ipad in a competition it will have less value to you than an ipad you spent 6months saving for, sounds like im talking bollocks but thats the human mind, if somethings easy to get / free you dont value it as much. if free ipad was smashed "ah well it was free anyway" you wouldnt fly into a rage like if the ipad that took you 6months graft to buy got smashed. that meant more to you because YOU EARNT IT.
    Last edited by odamienskii; 2021-09-05 at 01:54 AM.

  18. #118
    M+15 is actually harder then mythic raid, but because we had so much time practising dungeons, we dont even think about how much stuff goes on that needs to be done correctly, and its 30-40minute long, not just 1 boss in the span of 6ish minutes. The amount of shit I needed to learn in mythic dungeons the first few months was huge when I tanked it.

    For me, mythic raiding feels harder, but m15 feels way way easier than a m5 the first month these dungeons came out. Take a newish (not experienced in mplus at this level) player in a m15, and just observe how many times this dude dies and dies and dies.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I dont know about the numbers, but agree, gearing up in SL is easy compared to all other expansions except BfA and Legion.

    The big reason is mythic+ which wasnt a thing before said expansion, and the Great Vault.

    I think its in a good spot though, personally.
    Issue isn't so much the gear though that could be better but the shitty systems like soul ash and conduits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    M+15 is actually harder then mythic raid, but because we had so much time practising dungeons, we dont even think about how much stuff goes on that needs to be done correctly, and its 30-40minute long, not just 1 boss in the span of 6ish minutes. The amount of shit I needed to learn in mythic dungeons the first few months was huge when I tanked it.

    For me, mythic raiding feels harder, but m15 feels way way easier than a m5 the first month these dungeons came out. Take a newish (not experienced in mplus at this level) player in a m15, and just observe how many times this dude dies and dies and dies.
    Maybe mythic 25. I can tell you dont raid mythic.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Issue isn't so much the gear though that could be better but the shitty systems like soul ash and conduits.

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    Maybe mythic 25. I can tell you dont raid mythic.
    you missed my point I see

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