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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Would you rather have Elizabeth Warren or Joe Manchin?
    not directed at me but yeah, for sure I'd take Warren over Machin any day. at least she has a voting record to show she's not a total and complete sell out.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    (plus some of the posts of Hollycakes)
    I do hope that's not a bad thing.
    I didn't used to talk anywhere outside our Hots forum.
    Generally, one of those two or others already have it covered so there is little I can add.

    And I absolutely agree about futility but if nothing else, getting what you feel about the subject out "on paper" can make you feel better.
    It's also why I don't tend to direct any of my thoughts at them because they don't respond and if they do it's on to another Python skit.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    I do hope that's not a bad thing.
    I didn't used to talk anywhere outside our Hots forum.
    Generally, one of those two or others already have it covered so there is little I can add.

    And I absolutely agree about futility but if nothing else, getting what you feel about the subject out "on paper" can make you feel better.
    It's also why I don't tend to direct any of my thoughts at them because they don't respond and if they do it's on to another Python skit.
    Oh no I love your posts. You have a way of getting right down to the heart of what you are talking about. And you do it in a very succinct manner.

  4. #604
    Oh.
    Well thank you!
    I never know around here.
    Forums being forums.
    Not sure why but I feel like leaving this as it sums up what we do:

    "The time has come," the Walrus said,
    "To talk of many things:
    Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
    Of cabbages--and kings--
    And why the sea is boiling hot--
    And whether pigs have wings."

  5. #605
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    It's probably a good idea to not dismiss someone's argument because they're "not as smart as [they] think [they] are". That's the sort of thing that just infuriates people and pushes them into even more radical and extremist positions, which causes more problems down the line.

    Eugh, Warren wasn't exactly someone I was interested in voting for either. I was a Bernie supporter then, and I was a Bernie supporter years ago too. Hell, I would've even taken Andrew Yang over Warren. She completely lost any of my support when she dragged her feet in ceding her candidacy and ultimately allowed Biden to rally more support than Bernie.
    I've said it before I'll say it again... I'm extremely dubious that Bernie could have won against Trump in 2020.

    Was Bernie a better candidate than Trump? Abso-fucking-lutely. But whether his policies were better, or that Bernie is simply a much better politician and better all-around human being, is not ultimately relevant.

    Biden won by a lot of total votes. Bernie might have as well. But Hillary won by a lot of votes and it didn't matter. Bernie might not have carried the states that Biden did, and ultimately that might have been the deciding factor. In states like Florida the GOP gained support by depicting Biden as a "secret puppet" of Bernie Sanders (That isn't an exaggeration, I literally got leaflets in the mail saying exactly that) which they used to sound the ol' "socialist" dogwhistle to quite tangible success. In some of the narrower, more conservative states like Georgia and Arizona... that might have lost Bernie the running there.

    Besides, I don't think the number of votes that Warren "took," as you seem to put it, from Bernie was going to be enough to otherwise hand him the nomination over Biden. So don't go blaming Warren for trying to act her conscious in the political sphere.

    As far as the topic at hand... sometimes all you can do is "stop making things aggressively worse."

    If you're lying in a ditch with your legs cut off, maybe you should focus about getting out of the ditch, rather than worrying if you're going to qualify for the Boston Marathon next year.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #606
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Would you rather have Elizabeth Warren or Joe Manchin?
    Elizabeth Warren all the way in that case. Fuck Joe Manchin. Seriously, he's a Republican in all but name and stands in the way of all progress that Americans are fucking begging for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I've said it before I'll say it again... I'm extremely dubious that Bernie could have won against Trump in 2020.

    Was Bernie a better candidate than Trump? Abso-fucking-lutely. But whether his policies were better, or that Bernie is simply a much better politician and better all-around human being, is not ultimately relevant.

    Biden won by a lot of total votes. Bernie might have as well. But Hillary won by a lot of votes and it didn't matter. Bernie might not have carried the states that Biden did, and ultimately that might have been the deciding factor. In states like Florida the GOP gained support by depicting Biden as a "secret puppet" of Bernie Sanders (That isn't an exaggeration, I literally got leaflets in the mail saying exactly that) which they used to sound the ol' "socialist" dogwhistle to quite tangible success. In some of the narrower, more conservative states like Georgia and Arizona... that might have lost Bernie the running there.

    Besides, I don't think the number of votes that Warren "took," as you seem to put it, from Bernie was going to be enough to otherwise hand him the nomination over Biden. So don't go blaming Warren for trying to act her conscious in the political sphere.

    As far as the topic at hand... sometimes all you can do is "stop making things aggressively worse."

    If you're lying in a ditch with your legs cut off, maybe you should focus about getting out of the ditch, rather than worrying if you're going to qualify for the Boston Marathon next year.
    Those are pretty fair points, and you may very well be right (I don't actually know all the numbers, and some people are crazy about "socialists"), but it was simply infuriating to see the strongest progressive candidate we've had in a long, long time get rejected by the majority not once but twice. Warren was supposed to be a progressive, and progressives should've been rallying together to present the most powerful front they could. Seriously, imagine if we'd actually gotten our first real progressive President in decades... shit would be crazy.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Elizabeth Warren all the way in that case. Fuck Joe Manchin. Seriously, he's a Republican in all but name and stands in the way of all progress that Americans are fucking begging for.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Those are pretty fair points, and you may very well be right (I don't actually know all the numbers, and some people are crazy about "socialists"), but it was simply infuriating to see the strongest progressive candidate we've had in a long, long time get rejected by the majority not once but twice. Warren was supposed to be a progressive, and progressives should've been rallying together to present the most powerful front they could. Seriously, imagine if we'd actually gotten our first real progressive President in decades... shit would be crazy.
    Not really. The President doesn't actually have that much power in American politics. The purse strings are controlled by Congress and SCOTUS can also change social policies to arguably far greater effect than POTUS can (exhibit A: what this very thread covers). Even if you get Warren or Sanders in the White House by some miracle, give them the same Congress that Biden has now, with a narrow majority of largely milquetoast Democrats, and they won't actually be able to get much more done. They can talk about M4A and basic income and whatever else until they're blue in the face, if it doesn't pass the Senate it doesn't pass the Senate.

    Plus, you can't underestimate just how many Americans despise the very meaning of socialism. They might benefit from policies that arguably are "socialist", such as Medicare, but they'll swear until their dying breath that socialism is the evil of evils regardless. The Republicans managed to rile up their base to unprecedented levels merely by accusing Biden of socialism, and he's one of the most moderate and right-leaning Democrats in existence, one suspects they went for that angle because unlike with Clinton they couldn't find anything else to stick to him so they just went for the easy option of muh socialism. Imagine the sheer frenzy that would have possessed them if an actually avowed socialist was in the running. And I have no doubt a decent part of those moderate Democrats would also have hesitated/stayed home.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post

    Plus, you can't underestimate just how many Americans despise the very meaning of socialism.
    No, we know how many dumb Americans are out there.

  9. #609
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    I think you mean how many Americans despise what they think socialism is, since none of them actually know what socialism is.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Those are pretty fair points, and you may very well be right (I don't actually know all the numbers, and some people are crazy about "socialists"), but it was simply infuriating to see the strongest progressive candidate we've had in a long, long time get rejected by the majority not once but twice. Warren was supposed to be a progressive, and progressives should've been rallying together to present the most powerful front they could. Seriously, imagine if we'd actually gotten our first real progressive President in decades... shit would be crazy.
    Let's face it we have two right wing parties, the GOP is extreme right wing and the democrats are basically what modern republicanism would be if they evolved on cultural issues. Whenever there's any real left wing politicians both parties fight tooth and nail to make sure that politicians doesn't get elected or stay in power. All you have to do is look at AOC's re-election and the money that went in against her.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Let's face it we have two right wing parties, the GOP is extreme right wing and the democrats are basically what modern republicanism would be if they evolved on cultural issues. Whenever there's any real left wing politicians both parties fight tooth and nail to make sure that politicians doesn't get elected or stay in power. All you have to do is look at AOC's re-election and the money that went in against her.
    Don’t forget the rule changes they made after AOC won to block any others like her from getting in.

    The changed it so anyone helping someone like her in a primary against an incumbent gets blacklisted by the rest of the party.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Don’t forget the rule changes they made after AOC won to block any others like her from getting in.

    The changed it so anyone helping someone like her in a primary against an incumbent gets blacklisted by the rest of the party.
    yup we have two parties making sure the country keeps steering to the right even though left wing policies have never been more popular.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    I think you mean how many Americans despise what they think socialism is, since none of them actually know what socialism is.
    This.
    Plus different generations see that word differently I think.

    Boomers think of Russia or Cuba and the cold war or confuse it with Communism and breadlines etc; i.e. failed versions of the past or outright wrong versions
    Zoomers see it as Switzerland and Canada, free healthcare, SS etc.

    For one it's supremely negative.
    The other it's fairly positive.

    imo.

  14. #614
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    This.
    Plus different generations see that word differently I think.

    Boomers think of Russia or Cuba and the cold war or confuse it with Communism and breadlines etc; i.e. failed versions of the past or outright wrong versions
    Zoomers see it as Switzerland and Canada, free healthcare, SS etc.

    For one it's supremely negative.
    The other it's fairly positive.

    imo.
    The cold war introduced a brain rot in this country that we may never recover from.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The cold war introduced a brain rot in this country that we may never recover from.
    lol agreed.
    Also just noticed you have Hitchens in your signature <3
    Was just watching the debate between him and his extremely misguided brother Peter again the other day.
    Ugh I miss him.

  16. #616
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    lol agreed.
    Also just noticed you have Hitchens in your signature <3
    Was just watching the debate between him and his extremely misguided brother Peter again the other day.
    Ugh I miss him.
    Easily up there with Orwell as my favorite writers of all time. People will remember him for his Atheism but he was a thought provoking writer that made me want to learn more about history and politics. Not a fan of how cozy he became with the right during the early 2000s but he had enough sense to sniff out the fascists among them.

    His brother, on the other hand, was and is insufferable.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Not a fan of how cozy he became with the right during the early 2000s but he had enough sense to sniff out the fascists among them.

    His brother, on the other hand, was and is insufferable.
    I'd absolutely love to hear his take on today's Republican party, Jan 6th, Q and these shenanigans in Texas.
    The world is worse off without him.

    I still force myself to read Peters Sunday column though inevitably everything boils down to being marijuana's fault with him.
    All he wants is the 50's back, a bobby on the beat and those crazy beatniks and their pot to go away.

  18. #618
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Again, you all laughed off 600k people dying of Covid. You all laughed off synagogue and mosque shootings. You all laughed off war crimes. You all laugh off poverty and homelessness. So again, why should anyone believe you sincerely care if anyone, much less an unborn fetus, lives or dies?
    I did all those things?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Then the state should provide it as well as child support for all unwanted children since they are forcing an unwanted child on a woman.

    Built like I said, it's clear you hate women.
    Yes to govt providing tests, but child support is part of the man's job.

  19. #619
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I did all those things?
    I mean, if someone supports Trump and the current day Republican party they're either actively doing that or okay with electing people that do that.

    The vast majority of actions from the GOP in the past... let's generously only say decade... are directly pursuant to either making those things happen, allowing those things to happen, or encouraging those things to happen.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #620
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I mean, if someone supports Trump and the current day Republican party they're either actively doing that or okay with electing people that do that.

    The vast majority of actions from the GOP in the past... let's generously only say decade... are directly pursuant to either making those things happen, allowing those things to happen, or encouraging those things to happen.
    I do not like the GOP. Trump is hit or miss these days. Better in 2015/16

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