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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by World Peace View Post
    Seems a bizarre characterization, both of a business not being motivated by profit and of the customer who stands to engage with (read: buy into) the model being inept or irresponsible with their own capital.

    Egregious leap indeed.

    Let me save you some time: every design decision they make, every system under development, everything currently implemented is, without any reasonable doubt, motivated by profitability. We can agree to disagree; I don't intend to take this conversation any further.
    Banal, boring cynicism. That's all both you and @Triceron are harping on. Money exists, therefore Blizzard bad, token bad. You're right though, this discussion isn't worth taking any further.
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  2. #282
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    Well, if all they're going to do to change things is sit around and moan all day, they're not doing any good either. They're more useless than a bag of ice in Antarctica.
    Or they can choose to work somewhere else, where chances are that they will be paid and treated better. Crazy thought, I know
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Banal, boring cynicism. That's all both you and @Triceron are harping on. Money exists, therefore Blizzard bad, token bad. You're right though, this discussion isn't worth taking any further.
    Lol, who said Blizzard is bad for making money? Who said the Token is bad?

    I mean, weren't you the one implying people who buy tokens are fools?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #284
    Dreadlord Femininity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Or they can choose to work somewhere else, where chances are that they will be paid and treated better. Crazy thought, I know
    They get away with it, much like Disney does, because they're a "dream employer." People tend to forgive multitudes of sins for the sake of name recognition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nope. That's how you chose to read it. I can say that Blizzard can add incentives for people to buy more tokens. That is not saying Blizzard *must have added the feature* in order to profit..
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Lol, who said Blizzard is bad for making money? Who said the Token is bad?

    I mean, weren't you the one implying people who buy tokens are fools?

    The poster is committed to characterizing any counterpoint to their stance as "blizzard bad" (though nowhere did I make the assertion, explicitly or implicitly) so you may as well not waste any more time. You'll drive yourself mad trying to stay on level with pseudo-intellectuals with clear ulterior motives.
    Remember: Words are not violence.
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  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I doubt any of these people you mention actually advocated having the fans design the game. Pointing out that obviously shitty systems should be revised or scrapped in the face of a very stubborn Blizzard, which has emotionally clung to a lot of really bad ideas for two expansions now, is not even remotely the same thing.
    This is exactly right, on the same note; Ion Hazznoclue was a fan with no computer science or game design background that has been in charge of WoW for several years now and has failed in all but impressing some high end raiders. The youtubers are like many of us long term players in they are just frustrated with such a large contrast of experience between the earlier years of WoW when the hype was so often justified, and now, when we get a brief superficial fun experience and then a copy/paste grind with a paper rainbow and no pot of gold fun at the end of it.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by World Peace View Post
    The poster is committed to characterizing any counterpoint to their stance as "blizzard bad" (though nowhere did I make the assertion, explicitly or implicitly) so you may as well not waste any more time. You'll drive yourself mad trying to stay on level with pseudo-intellectuals with clear ulterior motives.
    Yeah dude, the ulterior motive of being annoyed by people making boring, cynical anti-capitalism remarks about a fucking video game.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  7. #287
    So he went ahead and designed a car that is more fun than the ones already around?

  8. #288
    yeah screw you guys for wanting to make the game better

  9. #289
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Exactly. At the time he first said this he just started whatever team and didn't have a single game out. I'm not sure they ended up making anything, I unsubbed before I could hear more about it. It really rubbed me wrong, because at least 1) Have a competent game out in the same genre 2)have actual knowledge and/or experience in major studio development cycles, before you start mouthng off what the pro's should've done at an industry level.

    It's fair to say the devs made a game that isn't fun to play. It's isn't fair to try and claim you know better as a professional when your work looks like a shitty free-to-play mobile game.
    I love the guy, great dude.
    But i needed a break when he would bring up "as a game developer myself I know this" every other sentence, meanwhile hes been doing so for more then half a decade now with no actual game to show for it yet.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "you have to be a chef to critique food"
    A thousand times this

    If you are trying to sell people something, they have every right to tell you they don't like it. If you want to keep taking their money, then you most certainly take their feedback into consideration and try to make what they do want.

    The various content creator videos don't do well because the playerbase doesn't have ideas of what is wrong with the game. They do well because the service they are purchasing is horrible, and it wasn't always that way. They have ideas of why the quality has declined, and have ideas on what they want, and then they find someone else who shares their opinion and thus feel validated.
    I for one did not enjoy any of Bellular's stuff until near the end of Legion, when it looked like BFA was going to go south for no reason beyond Blizzard being cheap on product development.
    When people have an opinion, they want to find others that share that opinion and view, humans are pack animals, they want to be around likeminded individuals. If anything, Blizzard should see that current and former content creators were getting so much traffic on making content centered on critical and negative discourse, and realize that their community was deeply dissatisfied with the product, even if they hadn't stopped purchasing it. Part of the whole product is to create social pressures to keep people playing and purchasing, even when they don't want to, out of fear of losing social interactions with preferred individuals in their lives.
    Instead Blizzard just "reeee'ed" at everyone and everything and doubled down after doubling down after already doubling down. They're in a deep and very expensive hole. I love the Warcraft IP pre-BFA, and to be honest, I love it even more just after Cataclysm happened. I loved the narrative of Pandaria, but the story was not consistent or believable in the Horde vs Alliance conflict. If the Horde had basically reverted back to its Old Horde WC1 roots and razed an entire city for the simple sake of conquest, then there would have been way more factions that would have jumped on the bandwagon of, "Big Nope" to letting the Horde continue as an organization. Dalaran would not have been fine with sticking around, the Elves of Silvermoon should be in fresh remembrance of WC2 and WC3 events that devastated their people. Wiping out an entire city and destroying the land beyond repair also should have been an anathema to the Tauren, and forced them to abandon the Horde then and there.
    In general the story is just not believable at this point. Character and political entity motivations make zero sense. Blizzard's story writers have been trying to have their cake and eat it, while also not doing any of the work to pull it off in an even half believable fashion.
    The point is, I love the Warcraft IP, but at this point I don't want Blizzard to touch the Warcraft IP anymore. I'd prefer WoW to crash and burn and to have the Warcraft IP sold off to some other company that would actually put in time and effort to make a good game that I'd enjoy playing because it has game mechanics I enjoy in a story setting that I enjoy. That isn't me being a toxic player or person. That is me doing the job of marketing for them. I would pay money to get a certain kind of product, make that product, then I'll buy it. Make a bad product, then I won't buy it and I'll tell others that I didn't buy it because it is inferior to other products. That is kind of how consumerism works. Blizzard is not entitled to our money, nor are we entitled to support them through their screw-ups.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    These estimates can be extremely inaccurate or rely on some crazy assumptions. Like back in BFA, some fairly popular post was basing the supposed subs on popularity of Weak Auras addon... and I'm pretty sure the final count assumed that nearly half of the playerbase was using it. Something that's obviously ludicrous, since it's an extremely complex addon, far too complicated for 'normal' users - and half of the playerbase probably doesn't use addons at all, nevermind this specific one.

    All in all, such guesswork is always inaccurate, with numbers swinging wildly depending on how much someone wants to prove that game is dead.
    Very true. After all is the api showing close to 100% of the players or are 50 of the players the same guy farming mission boards just to pick an extreme example. It is a guess at best.

  12. #292
    I want to say Nu-Blizzard is already Homer but if that were the case the car wouldn't be painted and the engine, spare tire, back seat, steering wheel and seatbelts would be missing.

    Its ok though! We have A RAID. Look forward to 9.1.5 where you can do your singular raid with slightly different tuning! Also, some of the Alliance will have a different hair or tattoo color!

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    Well, if all they're going to do to change things is sit around and moan all day, they're not doing any good either. They're more useless than a bag of ice in Antarctica.
    Streamers are paying customers of a video game. They don't need to "change things". What are YOU doing to change things? "Changing things" isn't their job. Streamers can make videos and talk on stream about stuff, but since they aren't Blizzard they can't do anything else since blizzard doesn't communicate with them like they used to. For example, the old warlock class designer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Lol, who said Blizzard is bad for making money? Who said the Token is bad?

    I mean, weren't you the one implying people who buy tokens are fools?
    The token makes p2w legal and blizzard approved. In order to p2w back in the day you had to risk a ban.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    The token makes p2w legal and blizzard approved. In order to p2w back in the day you had to risk a ban.
    You still risk a ban if you use RMT services outside of WoW tokens, as some others have suggested doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You still risk a ban if you use RMT services outside of WoW tokens, as some others have suggested doing.
    Swipe credit card -> Get gold -> Give gold for Mythic Sylvanas carry. Only difference is that Blizzard makes $5 on the transaction.

  16. #296
    people may not know what makes good design, but they can certainly tell what bad design looks like. that's why many of the (some now prior) big wow names called issues in legion, bfa, AND shadowlands, were ignored, and those problems came up.

    you can say people like preach, bellular, and asmon don't know what they want, but they sure as heck know what they don't want and can clearly see it coming a mile away.

  17. #297
    Yeah listening to players is bad, they should definitely just keep designing content around engagement metrics. That'll bring the players back.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    Spot on...
    And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

    Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...
    It doesn't take someone with a 4 year degree to know that restricting things like Conduit swapping, or Covenant swapping is a bad idea. It's like having a beverage holder in your car, and then pouring cement in it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Merin View Post
    I want to say Nu-Blizzard is already Homer but if that were the case the car wouldn't be painted and the engine, spare tire, back seat, steering wheel and seatbelts would be missing.

    Its ok though! We have A RAID. Look forward to 9.1.5 where you can do your singular raid with slightly different tuning! Also, some of the Alliance will have a different hair or tattoo color!
    Lol so true considering they use the World First Race to beta test their raids.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Swipe credit card -> Get gold -> Give gold for Mythic Sylvanas carry. Only difference is that Blizzard makes $5 on the transaction.
    You figured it out! Blizzard surely would've got away with it too if it weren't for us meddling forum posters.

    edit: Since I'm bored I did the math for this.

    A Mythic Sylvanas carry is 25 million gold. At ~180k a token, that's 139 WoW tokens. At $20/token, that's $2,780 dollars. With each token taking approximately 4 hours to get into your inventory, you'd have to buy a token every four hours (excluding sleep) for 23 days straight. Yep. People are definitely doing this!
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-09-02 at 05:19 AM.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You figured it out! Blizzard surely would've got away with it too if it weren't for us meddling forum posters.

    edit: Since I'm bored I did the math for this.

    A Mythic Sylvanas carry is 25 million gold. At ~180k a token, that's 139 WoW tokens. At $20/token, that's $2,780 dollars. With each token taking approximately 4 hours to get into your inventory, you'd have to buy a token every four hours (excluding sleep) for 23 days straight. Yep. People are definitely doing this!
    You forgot, you can only buy 20 tokens a week, so it's not 23 days, it's actually 3.3 days straight every week for 7 weeks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

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