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  1. #341
    Stood in the Fire
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    players don't have to know how to design a game. Most of these people don't claim to.

    They just know what they don't want to do with their time.

  2. #342
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Wow a flame thread with the bulk of OP being a linked YouTube video contributing nothing to the discussion.

    18 pages

  3. #343
    I dont need to know how to make a really expensive restaurant steak, but i know i dont want it to have shit over it, instead i prefer bbq sauce.

    People wanting devs to make the game better are usually that case, designers's job is to make a system, and how to make it, that will make players have fun, if players are not having fun with the system, the designer did a bad job and has to improve and change the system to make it enjoyable to the playerbase.

    Really, its easy.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Wow a flame thread with the bulk of OP being a linked YouTube video contributing nothing to the discussion.

    18 pages
    I mean the thread has some obvious streamer bashing in the title, so the usual reactions are essentially a given. Also the mods ignoring it for a while.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    When did I say you can't design a game without experience? It is one thing to do it and fail and one thing to complain, be smarter as anyone about it and never even try it. Ok, Bellular is trying, at least he said so...
    Slightly off course. Regarding Ion he will defend the bad direction to near-death. He was a lawyer, after all, it’s in his nature to be the Yes man to the person he answers to. Greg Street was the same but gave in to many community requests; he still held the game back in his own ways.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2021-09-02 at 12:10 PM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Bellular has always been pretty transparent about why he's on YouTube. Spoiler: It's money. In BfA, though, his videos were largely in defense of Blizzard. Sometime in 2019 he launched a sub-channel where he covered "industry news." This channel was by and large incredibly negative. When Bellular realized that negativity brings in clicks, suddenly his videos shifted from defending Blizzard to full on shitting on the company. The truly ironic thing is that you can actually use some of his BfA-era videos to criticize his more recent ones. The guy's a literal fucking meme. But, apparently, he's a rich one ... so there's that.
    I still find it funny in his clips channel he basically had a video one week where it was "WoW is far too hard to get into." then the next week "WoW is far too easy to get into."

    I mean if he stuck to either of them I'd say "You know what, the argument is consistent and for some people yeah it could be that." but if you're the same person arguing two polar opposites about why the game has issues then I'm sorry I'm going to have to sit up and ask if you (You = Bellular) are actively trying to push out a factual argument or just going after clicks here.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Its actually accurate but not how op thinks. Homer is not the playerbase. Homer is just a random guy hired and told to fix the company issues and he doesn't care about the customers - he doesn't listen to customers but does his own thing. This is blizz perfectly illustrated.
    Yup and they build a clown car. The really sad thing is a GOOD car is under all the clown shit. Once they peel off the clown shit you have a GOOD idea. Covenants are not a bad idea at all. The problem is they put on like 20 layers of clown makeup, clown shoes, and a red button nose for no reason. Even after people told them all that shit wasn't needed. Obviously they see it NOW because they are power washing it off in the next patch. Just listen a little first.. consider feedback.. and maybe not clown up a good car that can drive us all the way though the expansion.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Yup and they build a clown car. The really sad thing is a GOOD car is under all the clown shit. Once they peel off the clown shit you have a GOOD idea. Covenants are not a bad idea at all. The problem is they put on like 20 layers of clown makeup, clown shoes, and a red button nose for no reason. Even after people told them all that shit wasn't needed. Obviously they see it NOW because they are power washing it off in the next patch. Just listen a little first.. consider feedback.. and maybe not clown up a good car that can drive us all the way though the expansion.
    I actually think covenants are a pretty terrible idea no matter how you slice it... even just cosmetic people want to collect everything in wow who collect transmog not just one set.

  9. #349
    This thread is a massive overdose of copium, the games shit atm and the company doesn't listen. The reason all these streamers and youtubers are angry is because they are more invested in the game than most of us and the simple fact of the matter is they pointed out all these problems in beta and on the PTRs and they implemented them anyway without listening.

    Stop blaming content creators for the problems in the game, Blizzard haven't just actively ignored the player base they've also actively insulted it through their public channels. Stop defending the company that insults you, you're like a dog sticking by it's owner who beats you because you don't know any different.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Sin of Pride View Post
    I actually think covenants are a pretty terrible idea no matter how you slice it... even just cosmetic people want to collect everything in wow who collect transmog not just one set.
    I am actually more in line with your thinking as well to be perfectly honest. It doesn't make a ton of sense to have to switch between things to do what you want to do. Like if you really want to PvP you need to flip here, or go raid switch there, and even if you want to collect the log the need to flip.

    BUT, it is a lot better when you CAN flip between without penalty than when you cannot. Before it was VERY restrictive. Almost better to just level another character and that's a terrible psoition to be in. The change makes covenants something that if you don't like them its very limited in the damage it does to your enjoyment. If you like them then you can engage to your hearts content. That is the hallmark of a fairly good theme based system in my opinion.

    The problem is they were told this. Defended the other way, the very restrictive way, and dipped back on that when it blew up in thier face. Like they have for like 3-4 expansions. That shit needs to stop. They could have launched this game with a covenant system that might not be perfect or my cup of tea but at the very least it wouldn't have tied me to sinking ship.

    That's really all I am getting across. Its not for me but the change now makes it to where I can work with it.

  11. #351
    So what OP is saying is I'll have exactly what I want?
    Cool, no reason to stop then, thanks for the vote of confidence OP

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerwydd View Post
    This thread is a massive overdose of copium, the games shit atm
    In your opinion
    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Here is where I disagree. I think that borrowed power has become a big issue, and it definitely was bemoaned at the start of SL. I think that people were more accepting of it in Legion because it was new at the time, and it was packaged in a much cooler way. Unlocking the power of a weapon if legend just feels a lot more satisfying than unlocking the power in random armor pieces that you're going to change until you get the best one.

    When SL continued the trend, I think that was a problem. Then you add the timegating. The multiple grinds. The zone that felt like it was designed to not be fun (which may be thematically appropriate, but when something isn't fun it isn't fun and that's never great). Then the content drought.

    I think the problem was that Blizzard was just determined to continue to rebuild the same system (borrowed power) again with a new coat of paint, and after many years of living with it, a lot of players were just exceptionally tired of it.
    That's the problem, hard to find serious alternative to borrowed power. You can't release RPG expansion without some new powers. You also can't stack up new stuff infinitely. Borrowed power on paper creates stable system that should balance everything and never lead to ability purge WoD style. But of course borrowed power created another problem - people very fast discovered cycle and don't want to achieve new things to begin with.

    WoW length just isn't natural for RPG. There is problem in every corner. And people think it's so easy that twitch entertainer can fix everything..

    I don't think Blizzard invent something spectacular for 10.0, I suspect we will get something pernament that will move whole problem to some future expac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerwydd View Post
    This thread is a massive overdose of copium, the games shit atm and the company doesn't listen. The reason all these streamers and youtubers are angry is because they are more invested in the game than most of us and the simple fact of the matter is they pointed out all these problems in beta and on the PTRs and they implemented them anyway without listening.
    Most of them show obvious signs of burnout, in this state you point out every single flaw like it's most important thing in game. I can't imagine playing WoW without taking at least few months of every expac. And many veteran streamers didn't take break even between WoD and Legion. Hell, some still play even after "quiting", which is ridiculous on it's own.
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2021-09-02 at 02:59 PM.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Sin of Pride View Post
    I actually think covenants are a pretty terrible idea no matter how you slice it... even just cosmetic people want to collect everything in wow who collect transmog not just one set.
    they likely bet on these people to endure it and grind out multiple characters to collect everything. Simple way to boost activity metrics doing nothing - demand alt use.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    they likely bet on these people to endure it and grind out multiple characters to collect everything. Simple way to boost activity metrics doing nothing - demand alt use.
    A guildie and I were discussing this, as both of us are in the financial industry.

    What, exactly, is the point of making people HAVE to play more on a monthly basis? Does blizz not earn the same money from my sub as someone else's who raid logs or plays for an hour on Friday nights and is fine with LFR?

    I realize investor meetings are full of nonsense, for example, to make it sound like there's inreased profit potential, but seriously, there's absolutely no reason I can imagine where it makes sense for the company's bottom line to create required chores just to drive up playtime.

    Further, wouldn't creating more fun content (e. G. More dungeons, raids, etc) have the same effect on MAUs but with the added benefit of far fewer paying users leaving once they got fed up with chores?

    Oh well.

    To OP... Yeah I think Preach would make an excellent game designer.
    Dropakeg-Thrall - BrM Monk
    Dropagrip-Thrall - Blood DK

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    That's the problem, hard to find serious alternative to borrowed power. You can't release RPG expansion without some new powers. You also can't stack up new stuff infinitely. Borrowed power on paper creates stable system that should balance everything and never lead to ability purge WoD style. But of course borrowed power created another problem - people very fast discovered cycle and don't want to achieve new things to begin with.

    WoW length just isn't natural for RPG. There is problem in every corner. And people think it's so easy that twitch entertainer can fix everything..

    I don't think Blizzard invent something spectacular for 10.0, I suspect we will get something pernament that will move whole problem to some future expac.



    Most of them show obvious signs of burnout, in this state you point out every single flaw like it's most important thing in game. I can't imagine playing WoW without taking at least few months of every expac. And many veteran streamers didn't take break even between WoD and Legion. Hell, some still play even after "quiting", which is ridiculous on it's own.
    Players to Blizzard when they create a new expansion defining system: FUCK YOUR BORROWED POWER MAKE THE GAME GOOD INSTEAD

    Players to Blizzard when they don't create a new expansion defining system: LOL BLIZZARD CAN'T EVEN COME UP WITH A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE THE GAME INTERESTING

    In essence, regardless of what Blizzard does you'll have people on this forum using their extremely huge intellects to tell everybody about how stupid they are for simply making a decision.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropakeg View Post
    A guildie and I were discussing this, as both of us are in the financial industry.

    What, exactly, is the point of making people HAVE to play more on a monthly basis? Does blizz not earn the same money from my sub as someone else's who raid logs or plays for an hour on Friday nights and is fine with LFR?

    I realize investor meetings are full of nonsense, for example, to make it sound like there's inreased profit potential, but seriously, there's absolutely no reason I can imagine where it makes sense for the company's bottom line to create required chores just to drive up playtime.

    Further, wouldn't creating more fun content (e. G. More dungeons, raids, etc) have the same effect on MAUs but with the added benefit of far fewer paying users leaving once they got fed up with chores?

    Oh well.
    I know this might confuse you but those chores you feel like you have to do ... get this. Ready for it? You don't have to do them. There's nothing forcing you to do them. That's a YOU decision, not a Blizzard decision. But apparently pointing that out makes ME the one who's overdosing on Copium (whatever the fuck that means).

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropakeg View Post
    To OP... Yeah I think Preach would make an excellent game designer.
    ...are you trying to get Blizzard an AARP sponsorship?

  16. #356
    What "forces" me to do those chores is an internal desire to improve. So yes, I am aware that I don't HAVE to do them, just as I don't HAVE to play a video game at all.

    My question revolved around what benefit blizzard gets from creating less rewarding feedback loops that are perceived as compulsory.

    Thank you for the epic levels of condescension though haha.
    Dropakeg-Thrall - BrM Monk
    Dropagrip-Thrall - Blood DK

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropakeg View Post
    What "forces" me to do those chores is an internal desire to improve. So yes, I am aware that I don't HAVE to do them, just as I don't HAVE to play a video game at all.

    My question revolved around what benefit blizzard gets from creating less rewarding feedback loops that are perceived as compulsory.
    Blizzard doesn't get any benefit because these perceived compulsions are solely your own. Welcome to the conversation.

  18. #358
    This thread isn't locked yet? Amazing.

    Looks like we've really stooped to a level of discussion where we post a meme and say "this is you". Might as well start threads by posting soy wojaks with opinions you disagree with at this point.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-09-02 at 03:40 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropakeg View Post
    A guildie and I were discussing this, as both of us are in the financial industry.

    What, exactly, is the point of making people HAVE to play more on a monthly basis? Does blizz not earn the same money from my sub as someone else's who raid logs or plays for an hour on Friday nights and is fine with LFR?

    I realize investor meetings are full of nonsense, for example, to make it sound like there's inreased profit potential, but seriously, there's absolutely no reason I can imagine where it makes sense for the company's bottom line to create required chores just to drive up playtime.

    Further, wouldn't creating more fun content (e. G. More dungeons, raids, etc) have the same effect on MAUs but with the added benefit of far fewer paying users leaving once they got fed up with chores?

    Oh well.

    To OP... Yeah I think Preach would make an excellent game designer.
    Habit formation and sunk cost fallacy reward implementing daily chores. People who barely play have an easier time quitting entirely so you want them to play a lot even if it creates more server costs. Developing more content costs money, making design decisions to require replaying same content costs nothing, telling to play alts makes a easy choice. Also look how activity is measured in absence of subs - everyone is logging active characters played. Forcing alts makes you look better in these statistics.
    The only mistake is misjudging how for they can push the playerbase.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    November is bold, I'm saying this month yet.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Or, to put the moral in fewer words.

    "Everyone agrees Shadowlands (and WoW as a whole) is busted. But there's 97 different ideas people have to fix it."
    I don't agree with that at all. I think the game is in fine shape so not "everyone" agrees.
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