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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Subzu View Post
    Stop watching E celebrities and comparing your opinion with theirs, they're entertaining, key word enterianment, they don't play the game like the standard player would to be immersed in the content created.

    Players like Preach have proven how disconnect they are with the actual player, go watch his LFG videos.
    Very much this. Whenever these big streamers play ANY MMORPG, they will always have a different experience than your random lonesome player. Preach has started playing FF14 and im pretty sure he has a different experience than most players would have. He already has a established community that will chime in at any given time for anything.

    Most people dont have that.

    The streamers experience these games very differently for better or for worse. Asmongold had a horrid time in classic, but I bet most people had a decent time. He was ganked and griefed 24/7 all year long, the rest of us dont experience that.

    Also, these streamers 99% of the time come with theyre own subjective viewpoint. Most of them dont base alot of arguments into in than "I dont like it, so I wont play it".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordKharon View Post
    Sure they could hire a well known streamer. Take for example Bellular. Woud he go work at Blizzard for "normal" pay and bonuses? 99% no.

    But they could offer him a deal good enough to make it happen. For example:
    - Very good money & pay a good sum for him to leave his current work for a limited time (so they can continue without him until he returns)
    - Total control over WoW for 1 expansion cycle (with option to continue if successful), everything from story to systems/rewards, raids/dungeons, PvP, whatever... assuming he wants to stay true to WoW and not change it to a battle royale or something like that

    Will Blizzard do that? Hell no chance, but they COULD if they really wanted...
    Theres one thing making 900000 negative youtube videos yearly about wow, its something very different actually creating the game. Belluar has his role, and thats complaining about everything all the time for views. It works great, so no wonder he does it!

  2. #762
    OP, you realize that most if not all of the devs on this game started out by being players of...

    *drumroll*

    ...other mmo's, right?

    Game design is not some deity-given capability, and to assume that some player ideas aren't better than what's currently live, or that Blizzard takes no mis-steps with this game is pretty hilarious.

    Also, Homer more or less designed an upscale SUV, so the point you're trying to make has fallen short.

  3. #763
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    Why should they give the control of the game to a guy who hasn't achieved anything in it? They could just as well pluck any random in LFR gear.
    Do you realise that the same could have been said about, idk, Ben Brode, Ghostcrawler, Tom Chilton or even Ion himself? None of them had "achieved" anything in gaming when they were hired.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Do you realise that the same could have been said about, idk, Ben Brode, Ghostcrawler, Tom Chilton or even Ion himself? None of them had "achieved" anything in gaming when they were hired.
    That's fair, I just don't get the obsession with Bellular. The guy's been making negative videos about the game for like a decade now and I just don't see what someone like him would add at all.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    I have 2 DRK, GNB, BRD, MCH, AST and SAM at Extreme trial ready. Last jobs that i dont have at 80 have end game gear waiting them when i get them to max lvl.
    In WoW i have hunter in 245 raid gear and paladin i left at 200 because got sick of it. I have no intrest to lvl up another class in wow because of all the rep and anima grind to get it viable for end game content. I liked the raids but all the chores and timegating ruined my fun.
    Man this hits too close to home stahp

  6. #766
    I don't really like forced chores either but it's funny how much crap SL gets for it even though Anima is entirely cosmetic/optional and doesn't affect player power at all, Torghast is something you can be done with in like a month to get your r6 legendary (and then its only 2 runs a week), especially compared to Legion or BFA who were much worse in that regard. You never capped AP in BFA so running Islands was a thing until the end, Legion had terrible RNG with legendaries and TF on top of the AP grind and wasn't really fixed until the latter stages of the expansion.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this makes SL better but the grinds aren't as bad as they have been. Just comparing Legion and SL with each other and the legendary & AP situations. In SL you can actually target the legendary you want and get it fairly quickly - in Legion it was all down to luck and you could play 12 hours every day and still not get your preferred legendary for months. AP in SL doesn't affect your character's power really at all, in Legion you were semi-forced to spam Maw of Souls for 5 hours a day if you wanted to pump out numbers. (I still like Legion more than SL but that doesn't mean SL can be better in some areas)

  7. #767
    Sorry for the slow reply but wanted to spend time properly working through this reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Simple psychology,
    I continue to hear this, the idea the numbers going up equals satisfaction. Yet, I've never seen the literature on this. Do you happen to have this data by chance? I'm not saying that to be difficult but I do have a genuine curiosity. The reason being, is it really the idea of "bigger number equals more fun" or is it the numbers are representative of achievement and the achievement is what is rewarding? There is quite the difference between the two and I think it'd be good if we knew the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    higher numbers always feel more fun.
    Kinda back to my earlier point, is it that or is it achievement that is represented by the number? If that's true, why do RP communities exist? Why do people care about story and lore? Why do PvP players care about winning? Why do pet battlers care about winning? Why do raiders and M+ people care about clears, beating bosses, and having fun/interesting encounters? Why do people care about the races they play? Why do they care about the visuals of their spells and transmog? All of that seems to fly in a very contrary manner to that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    The players express that they want this without realising until after the fact that what they need is for the higher numbers they want to be enabled without feeling like another job or the challenge itself.
    I'm having a hard time following this statement. Are you saying that players don't care about the challenge and instead only care if the number goes up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Time Walking and Mechagon lead to an increase in power.
    I'd argue that you could've removed all forms of power rewards from Mechagon and still have roughly the same kind of experience and reception. There would be an obvious small drop in payers that were only there for the essences and the punch card but that wouldn't degrade its quality. We need to be very careful of the idea that "engagement equals positive player reception." Especially when player power is involved.

    TW inherently has rewards, as it should being dungeon content, but that's not what makes it a good feature which we'll get into below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Before TW items were nerfed in SL they were slightly better than similar HC items.
    Okay, and that has no bearing on the conversation as that is typical of releasing "updated" gear. That's just tuning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Doing TW repeatedly was also a viable way to level and thus escape another round of doing things you've already done before. Thus an increase in power.
    No, that is not correct. Taking a different road to the same destination does not change the destination. You're gaining levels either through TW or another means. Doesn't mean the levels are more valuable through TW than questing on a per level basis. Meaning, level 30 through TW will be the same as level 30 through questing in regards to your player power (or in the context of this situation, making your numbers go up).

    To give another example, if your goal is to make it to destination C, and you can take either path A or path B, no matter what path you take you're still going to arrive at destination C. The only difference is your experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Mechagon was one to non-raiders eventually. The punch cards were also an increase in power. If you went for those you also had to spend time there, however, only had to spend it once as their improvement was tied to rep instead of a currency that could always be increased in amount.
    Again, I'd argue that you could easily remove all forms of player power progression and still arrive at the same player reception. It's a good piece of content regardless of player power rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Deaths of Chromie and the Mage Tower is an example of the devs, different devs I'll remind you, giving people what they need instead of what they want. They gave the feeling of challenge without offering an increase in power as it gave bragging rights in the rewards if they were obtained early.
    This statement seems to run opposed to your statement that higher numbers means more fun. In fact, this statement would actually rather support my argument that its the achievement represented by the numbers that the players are enjoying as opposed to seeing numbers get bigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    The current devs solely give people what they think the people want based on their own biased interpretation of what they say they want, and their central bias is time spent = challenge.
    Just want to make sure I'm understanding your statement correctly, you're essentially saying that the devs have a thinking error that is time spent equals challenge? If that is what you're saying, then I'll say that, it sure feels like that. That might not be the case though, obviously there has been a lot of dysfunction behind the doors at Blizzard for years now and it's come to ahead recently.

    Without having people who have worked there to openly discuss with us the difficulties of the production of WoW we truly don't know what's actually going wrong. As a community, the best we can do is point to the issues of the game and make suggestions about the issues we see. The internal issues at Blizzard have to be sorted out internally at Blizzard, the unfortunate reality is that we just do not see what's happening behind closed doors over there. As the massive lawsuit has made apparent.

    There's one more thing I want to bring up. The "needs" of the players is going to widely vary depending on what content players enjoy. What a raider will "need" will vary widely from what an RPer will "need", which will be further different yet from what a PvP player will "need", as it goes for pet battlers, completionists, M+ people, transmog collecters, achievement hunters, and every possible different way you can fractionate the different ways people play and *enjoy* the game. There's a level of hubris that comes with the idea that the devs know what the players "need" in order to enjoy the game. It leads to such statements like "you think you do but you don't" which was an erroneous statement as we all observed some time later. It is not for the devs to decide how people enjoy the game, and if they subscribe to that idea and continue to perpetuate that mode of thinking then they will continue to hemorrage players to the competition where they *enable* players to enjoy the game in the way they want (assuming it doesn't damage the core experience of the game).

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by blapdris View Post
    If you can design a game with 1 million whales then that will make a lot more money than 12 million randoms.

    Additionally, and no one seems to understand this, you can't just make a game by doing exactly what players want. If it were that simple then every games company would just do market research and do whatever ticked the boxes and make billions. It obviously isn't that simple. People can't really envisage the broader implications of what they say they want.
    Isnt that exactly what everyone is doing today?
    Only marketing and no heart and soul put into the game.

    There is a new COD and BF every year selling for billions because it is exactly what people want.

    Issue is that people at blizzard today is 50% sales staff and 50% marketing staff. There is not one left at the company who knows a good game.
    The game designers left the company.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mh4cker View Post
    Isnt that exactly what everyone is doing today?
    Only marketing and no heart and soul put into the game.

    There is a new COD and BF every year selling for billions because it is exactly what people want.

    Issue is that people at blizzard today is 50% sales staff and 50% marketing staff. There is not one left at the company who knows a good game.
    The game designers left the company.
    Im rather sure its higher than that. As with alot of things in our society, lots are left to be controlled by sales & marketing staff. The innovative, passionate & creative game designers are out there, but they certainly aint in Blizzard. WHats coming in the future for the company? Wow xpacs, D4 and mobile games? Were two of these are already well established and wont move far off the mold.

  10. #770
    Bloodsail Admiral fooliuscaesar13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    That's fair, I just don't get the obsession with Bellular. The guy's been making negative videos about the game for like a decade now and I just don't see what someone like him would add at all.
    I don't understand the fascination with him either. Negativity - for whatever reason - generates revenue though.

    This is off-topic of me, but if/when he ever releases his game (is he still working on it?), I'll bet that it gets destroyed by people who make gaming videos. He will be reaping what he has sown, even if he makes the most perfect game ever. I feel bad for the people he works with.

  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooliuscaesar13 View Post
    I'll bet that it gets destroyed by people who make gaming videos. He will be reaping what he has sown, even if he makes the most perfect game ever. I feel bad for the people he works with.
    And you have the gall to complain about negativity...? Yikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  12. #772
    Didn't some streamer try to design a game and ended up being a colossal failure.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mh4cker View Post
    Peak in wow was like 10 million subs? more 12?
    And now its 1 million. Maybe less.

    Why design a game for the 1 million players instead of the other 9 or 11?

    Blizzard are stupid. Simple conclusion.

    If blizzard designed the game for the other ~11 million players the 1 million would go back to play mobile games because that is what wow is today, a mobile daily quest game built around creating addiction and micro transactions.


    People will say all games die with time.
    Tell that to Dota, Counter-strike, League, Minecraft, GTA, oldschool runescape etc etc etc etc etc.
    Any increase in population within the game will be short-lived and focused around content releases; they release these 6-month mount/sub deals because people simply don't want to put that much time into the game anymore. Some of that can be attributed to the content being repetitive/grindy/stale; I'd argue that most of the population loss is the result of breakdown of social groups.

    Classic has been great for the short-term health of the game; but overall I think it will end up hurting Blizzard long-term. From personal experience with friends going back to play Classic, the general sentiment is: We didn't miss the game as much as the community behind it. Over the years, generational and social shifts has shaped the game into what we have today.

    A lot of my friends that played WoW when it game out were early 20s with kids, they had their 4 year olds farm gold for them lol. Fast, forward 17 years; same friends have grandchilden doing the exact same thing. I mean, when I was 5, when my grandpa wanted to take me fishing, it was actual fishing, not farming some dumb mount in a video game. For some it just might be the actual realization on how much time they wasted chasing pixels, but the social dynamic has most definitely changed in how the game plays out, some of which turns away veteran players, but new players as well; kids want to play what's fun and popular among their age group. The game isn't dying per se, but it does have the constant attrition of players whose feelings towards the game is "I'm over it, friends and family are gone." This is no fault to the developer necessarily, but bad design decisions do contribute to that breakdown of social connections within their game; automation is their only answer to this issue moving forward, and its a double edge sword, it allows those connections to form quickly, yet they are temporary and mostly meaningless to the player behind the screen.

    They need to design the game to be fun to slow these numbers down, WoW will never be as popular as it was, but it can still be a great game if they allow it to be.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by LordKharon View Post
    Sure they could hire a well known streamer. Take for example Bellular. Woud he go work at Blizzard for "normal" pay and bonuses? 99% no.

    But they could offer him a deal good enough to make it happen. For example:
    - Very good money & pay a good sum for him to leave his current work for a limited time (so they can continue without him until he returns)
    - Total control over WoW for 1 expansion cycle (with option to continue if successful), everything from story to systems/rewards, raids/dungeons, PvP, whatever... assuming he wants to stay true to WoW and not change it to a battle royale or something like that

    Will Blizzard do that? Hell no chance, but they COULD if they really wanted...
    If there's one person who should have no control over wow development it is Bellular. The guy flip flops harder than the pendulum swing Blizzard is accused of doing when they're developing.

    Bellular this year has made videos where he has stated the game is too hard, followed up by a video where he said the game is too easy. That it is both too long and short. He's making videos where his complaints are the polar opposite of what he said just a week before. That's a politician level of pandering to an audience.

  15. #775
    You get folks like this in any area of life. Person CONvinces you you have a problem only they can cure, but never cure you. They just keep selling you reasons to why you think you have a problem.

    Stop buying snake oil folks.

  16. #776
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Do you realise that the same could have been said about, idk, Ben Brode, Ghostcrawler, Tom Chilton or even Ion himself? None of them had "achieved" anything in gaming when they were hired.
    To be clear: Greg Street started by submitting scenarios to Age of Empires, was hired and ended up as lead developer before going to Blizzard. That counts as an achievement (in gaming). Ion ran one of the most influential and knowledge-based sites about the World of Warcraft before coming to Blizzard (Elitist Jerks). Likely he knew more about how the game worked at the nuts-and-bolts level than most of the system designers at the time. That counts for something.

    I get the comment about not being a star player in game but for design that's actually not as important as people think.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-10-27 at 08:19 AM.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Bellular this year has made videos where he has stated the game is too hard, followed up by a video where he said the game is too easy. That it is both too long and short. He's making videos where his complaints are the polar opposite of what he said just a week before. That's a politician level of pandering to an audience.
    I don't know the context of both statements but unfortunately, those statements aren't exactly false.

    The difficulty spectrum in WoW has become truly staggering for a game where a shared world was actually a criticial piece.
    On the one side, you have content that is near brain dead and is pretty much an insult to any remotely competent player (questing, LFR, story related quests, etc..), on the other side you have content that even takes 300+ attempt for people that play this game for a living.

    The base difficulty in WoW barely leaves the ground but the second you go beyond this, the sky suddenly becomes the limit.

  18. #778
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Bellular this year has made videos where he has stated the game is too hard, followed up by a video where he said the game is too easy. That it is both too long and short. He's making videos where his complaints are the polar opposite of what he said just a week before. That's a politician level of pandering to an audience.
    Always best to remember that the bigger streamers for nearly any game are all about keeping subscriptions and ad revenue up and will say anything that will help that. That's why it's just not smart to think that their opinion means anything. It saddens me to see so many people allowing these folks to do their thinking for them. But I suppose that's part of what humanity does. It's just easier with social media.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  19. #779
    Bloodsail Admiral fooliuscaesar13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And you have the gall to complain about negativity...? Yikes.
    Point taken, though I wouldn't be one of those trying to destroy his game. I'm more or less saying when it happens to him, he's earned it.

    Which, again: point taken. lol. Definitely negative.

  20. #780
    nah fam, wow community got the skills to make wow 2, trust me

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