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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by xcyan View Post
    So people say most people dont raid or do m+ and the game shouldnt be designed purely for that, but how should it be made, how would you make the game different? No flame or trolling meant, maybe cus i started seriously playing in bfa but i just dont get what there is to do at max level except to raid, pvp and do m+. Why would you do quests when you dont get xp anymore at max level? How did people do dungeons before m+ when it never got harder the higher the key level, wasnt that boring? Maybe im just damaged from having started playing when i did I just honestly dont get what there is to do in an mmorpg at max level except to do end game content like raiding and m+, and maybe rp for people who are into that.

    Quests just for the sake of questing? And mount farming i think i is a new thing for the most part since its only once we got some expansions behind us that you could go back and solo old content.
    Crafting for example was a big part of the game during Classic and TBC. Right now crafting is almost irrelevant.

    Second, farming reputation from different factions was a also a huge part back in vanilla. It still is now, but back then factions offered something interesting and unique for everyone.

    Also open world content wasn't so easy and unchallenging like it is now. It was a lot more engaging because there was a chance for the average gamer to die by participating in open world content. Things especially start to become a chore if they are too easy. Why do open world content if it is unengaging like it is now. There are a lot of people who want challenging open world content back. The only ones who don't want that are M+ players and raiders, because they only play the game for M+ and raids.

    But overall the game doesn't even have to bring back old systems from classic. There are so many forms of content which could be added, like jumping puzzles, exploration content, more challenging open world single-player and group content, housing, transmog achievments. Also the game could focus a lot more on an open world MMO by inter-connecting more zones with each other instead of making so much instanced content. Tbh I really want to go back to Azeroth. Maybe add a new area like "Dragon Isles" in the next addon and let us explore Azeroth again.
    Last edited by TheTaurenChieftain; 2021-11-01 at 05:34 PM.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTaurenChieftain View Post
    Crafting for example was a big part of the game during Classic and TBC. Right now crafting is almost irrelevant.
    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.

    Second, farming reputation from different factions was a also a huge part back in vanilla. It still is now, but back then factions offered something interesting and unique for everyone.

    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.

    Also open world content wasn't so easy and unchallenging like it is now. It was a lot more engaging because there was a chance for the average gamer to die by participating in open world content. Things especially start to become a chore if they are too easy. Why do open world content if it is unengaging like it is now. There are a lot of people who want challenging open world content back. The only ones who don't want that are M+ players and raiders, because they only play the game for M+ and raids.
    The open world in classic and vanilla was ALWAYS so easy you had to basically be so fucking stupid or actually attempt at dying to die. It was never engaging.

    But overall the game doesn't even have to bring back old systems from classic. There are so many forms of content which could be added, like jumping puzzles, exploration content, more challenging open world single-player and group content, housing, transmog achievments. Also the game could focus a lot more on an open world MMO by inter-connecting more zones with each other instead of making so much instanced content. Tbh I really want to go back to Azeroth. Maybe add a new area like "Dragon Isles" in the next addon and let us explore Azeroth again.
    If they don't offer best gear then there's no point and if max raiders cry "they have to do it." then maybe they should instead of going after blizzard turn on their raid leaders and go "No go fuck yourselves."

  3. #803
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.
    Someone never farmed Cenarion rep for Earthstrike.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.




    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.



    The open world in classic and vanilla was ALWAYS so easy you had to basically be so fucking stupid or actually attempt at dying to die. It was never engaging.



    If they don't offer best gear then there's no point and if max raiders cry "they have to do it." then maybe they should instead of going after blizzard turn on their raid leaders and go "No go fuck yourselves."

    Your comment exactly describes the kind of feedback which Blizzard should absolutely NOT listen to in my opinion. This Go!Go!Go! Max Gear mentality is the exact reason why WoW is the way it is now.

    I think Blizzard should concentrate a lot more on player interaction and community building. This Go!Go!Go! mentality will push people away from WoW, especially new players.

    If your post demonstrates the same mentality that a lot of Mythic+ players and raiders have (which I really don't hope) than this EXACTLY describes the problem with concentrating on raid and M+ content too much.

    Edit: Except if you wanted to sarcastically criticize the mentality of some of the M+ players and raiders. Then I agree with you.

  5. #805
    Game is dying because blizzard is pandering to the loud LGBTTSQ commie freaks. everything is offensive if you look hard enough, everything will be cleaned & cencored until there is nothing left except final fantasy

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTaurenChieftain View Post
    Your comment exactly describes the kind of feedback which Blizzard should absolutely NOT listen to in my opinion. This Go!Go!Go! Max Gear mentality is the exact reason why WoW is the way it is now.

    I think Blizzard should concentrate a lot more on player interaction and community building. This Go!Go!Go! mentality will push people away from WoW, especially new players.

    If your post demonstrates the same mentality that a lot of Mythic+ players and raiders have (which I really don't hope) than this EXACTLY describes the problem with concentrating on raid and M+ content too much.

    Edit: Except if you wanted to sarcastically criticize the mentality of some of the M+ players and raiders. Then I agree with you.
    It's more an observation on how the player base in wow has been acting since at least wrath. Not something that I agree with (their views) but it's become clear that unless it has power related to it (or is super nerfed to the ground) the player base just isn't interested.

    It's essentially this if something is in the game

    Does it offer power? If yes the player base screams forced, if no the player base screams Not interested. Unless it's pretty much falling over itself.

    People today like to push the whole "But we love the mage tower." in recent months. But in reality, they didn't like it for most of its lifetime. They liked it once they were geared with gear that's 2 tiers after its release and the bosses in the tower were of no actual difficulty.

  7. #807
    When a huge chunk of the player base watches them, it's highly probable that most of what they think and expect about the game resonates.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It's more an observation on how the player base in wow has been acting since at least wrath. Not something that I agree with (their views) but it's become clear that unless it has power related to it (or is super nerfed to the ground) the player base just isn't interested.

    It's essentially this if something is in the game

    Does it offer power? If yes the player base screams forced, if no the player base screams Not interested. Unless it's pretty much falling over itself.

    People today like to push the whole "But we love the mage tower." in recent months. But in reality, they didn't like it for most of its lifetime. They liked it once they were geared with gear that's 2 tiers after its release and the bosses in the tower were of no actual difficulty.
    I am not sure what version of the game you are playing but one of the most popular feature since Wrath was the mage tower and it had nothing to do with player power. There are also tons of other additions people like such as Chromie's quests and others, what the player base has been screaming for is engaging content. The reason players are screaming forced is because of things like Thorgast perfect example of Blizzard's flawed designed based off something fun but because they tied it to player power both the design, implementation and its popularity suffered.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.
    You CAN do that. In Daoc the best gear was crafted gear. Raids dropped worse gear but it had particle effects and was prettier. High end gear for the endgame (PVP) was always crafted and leveling crafts took a long time and was expensive. But the high crafters were all well known and respected on the server.
    It was not a bad system imo.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I am not sure what version of the game you are playing but one of the most popular feature since Wrath was the mage tower and it had nothing to do with player power. There are also tons of other additions people like such as Chromie's quests and others, what the player base has been screaming for is engaging content. The reason players are screaming forced is because of things like Thorgast perfect example of Blizzard's flawed designed based off something fun but because they tied it to player power both the design, implementation and its popularity suffered.
    Agreed. Mage tower was something I could do if I wanted, wasnt required. Torghast is something I have to do, even though I dont want to. Theres a huge difference to that. Dying over and over again in mage tower for weaponskins was my own choice, cause it didnt bring me any player power. Torghast has the stuff I need for my character to be better, so I have to do it.

    Gameplay is where its at. Blizzard does well with dungeons & raids, but we need more.

  11. #811
    Youtubers are in most cases clickbaiters that devolve into a blood lust for clicks no matter what; in this case they often deploy "WOW IS DYING!1!!!1! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO WHAT WE TOLD THEM!1!!111 THE OLD EXPANSIONS WERE PERFECT!1!1111"; that is exactly the same nonsense I've been hearing since TBC (or e.g. WotLK was absolutely hated by vanilla players back in the day etc.).

    It's sad that even smart people like Adam of YourMovieSucksDotOrg started clickbaiting lately; they can't escape it; it's the money making.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    generally WoD content was few, not bad, massive difference between WoD and BFA for example where just login to play was horrible due to how they overfucked ur class itself as they actually (in very rare) flat out admitted
    BFA had a lot of great content, but all is meaningless when u hate to even use ur character in first place to do them

    because main problem of employees is having a ceo bonus salary more than the entire staff salary for an entire year combined, and so far they doing NOTHING to improve it
    they using the old (sadly successful) 'look a bird' tactic where they want to show they are 'changing' without actually changing, by making bullshit useless changes
    This is like u complain a building is built wrong, so the owner paint it rainbow and if u say the problem wasn't the painting will accuse u being homophobic since u hate rainbow color!

    - - - Updated - - -


    honestly it should been easy to see, i admit i didn't see it but should been
    If WoD problem was lack of content, then what about making ur class so shit that u hate to even login no matter what content there is... that's BFA
    SL have a mix of BFA and WoD so far, and doubt it will be any better
    yea thats a fair point, allthought it was legion that royally screwed the classes not BFA (allthought BFA did put fuel on the fire).

    aye, for me SL was the final nail in the coffin, and honestly i dont believe they can recover from it now, especielly not with the lawsuits, kotick etc

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.




    Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.



    The open world in classic and vanilla was ALWAYS so easy you had to basically be so fucking stupid or actually attempt at dying to die. It was never engaging.
    Lionheart helm would want to have a word. Best is slot for warriors from start until naxx.

    Go pull more than 3 mobs same lvl as you as a warrior or rogue twice and come back.

    Fucking easymode casters talking shit about things they have no clue about.

  14. #814
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".
    But so do the aspects of ineptitude they do hire and let them run the game into de ground with worse design skills than the janitor.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    Lionheart helm would want to have a word. Best is slot for warriors from start until naxx.

    Go pull more than 3 mobs same lvl as you as a warrior or rogue twice and come back.

    Fucking easymode casters talking shit about things they have no clue about.
    Lol, the challenge goes from being an auto attack simulator to there being literally nothing you can do to survive.

    I enjoy classic cause it’s relaxing, the only way you die is by pulling too many mobs and not retreating early.

  16. #816
    Stood in the Fire Bildur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Be careful what you wish for.


    You're basically Homer in this episode.

    You couldn't be more right. Good job!
    And we see it with (some) movies too ... studios listening to YouTubers to try and make movies that "fits all".
    Sad times indeed.

  17. #817
    I am surprised such a troll thread hasn't been closed yet, but whatever.

    OP is saying that you should just deal with what Blizzard does. However the irony of the linked YouTube video is that the company of Homer's bro was failing hard regardless and Homer's car was such a failure... because Homer.

    Listening to player feedback is not hard and I know that there are several topics which are controversial, as in not all players agree with them. However most of the suggestions I've seen from mentioned streamers is most of the time stuff that most people would agree with, such as this whole store mount crap, introducing new systems every time with intended flaws and only "fixing" them much much later etc etc. And I know that a lot of them really just suggest to go back to how things were back in Wrath, cata, mop as far as class design, progression etc. goes.
    Of course you will not make everyone happy, but seeing how the player numbers are so low that WoW isn't the king of the MMO's in the west anymore is a clear sign that they are doing a bad job.

    At this point I am sure that most of the people involved with making WoW don't really know what to do. It is clear that the vas majority of them don't really play WoW and that all of the original devs that made the game great, maintained it and even played it, are gone.
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2021-11-25 at 10:26 AM.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    I am surprised such a troll thread hasn't been closed yet, but whatever.

    OP is saying that you should just deal with what Blizzard does. However the irony of the linked YouTube video is that the company of Homer's bro was failing hard regardless and Homer's car was such a failure... because Homer.

    Listening to player feedback is not hard and I know that there are several topics which are controversial, as in not all players agree with them. However most of the suggestions I've seen from mentioned streamers is most of the time stuff that most people would agree with, such as this whole store mount crap, introducing new systems every time with intended flaws and only "fixing" them much much later etc etc. And I know that a lot of them really just suggest to go back to how things were back in Wrath, cata, mop as far as class design, progression etc. goes.
    Of course you will not make everyone happy, but seeing how the player numbers are so low that WoW isn't the king of the MMO's in the west anymore is a clear sign that they are doing a bad job.

    At this point I am sure that most of the people involved with making WoW don't really know what to do. It is clear that the vas majority of them don't really play WoW and that all of the original devs that made the game great, maintained it and even played it, are gone.
    I gotta agree with this. People like to bash on streamers a lot because a lot of them have trolly personas (like asmon) but in reality a lot of their views (the not extreme ones) do actually reflect views that a big % of the community actually upholds.
    For example, blizzard making intentionally flawed designs only to go back and fix them a year into each expansion. This has especially been the case from Legion onwards. While Legion was overall a good expansion (for other reasons), it had a lot of flawed designs that were pointed out since beta but were not fixed until much later on. Same exact thing in BfA and same exact thing in SL.
    Seeing this happen for 3 expansions in a row has kind of convinced me that this is an intentional strategy deployed by them which does not seem to be working very well.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    Spot on...
    And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

    Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...
    This is such a stupid comment, how old are you?

    Out of all bad takes anyone can ever make, saying "do it better yourself" in this context is by far the worst.

    FYI, not everyone on the planet lives in Orange County, CA and its surrounding and not everyone wants to work for a different company just so they can have more fun playing a game LOL. Why would I join a company like Blizzard after it's been known (for years actually) that the salaries are bad and that the work culture is harsh? Also they do hire junior developers, 3d artists with no experience as well...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Youtubers are in most cases clickbaiters that devolve into a blood lust for clicks no matter what; in this case they often deploy "WOW IS DYING!1!!!1! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO WHAT WE TOLD THEM!1!!111 THE OLD EXPANSIONS WERE PERFECT!1!1111"; that is exactly the same nonsense I've been hearing since TBC (or e.g. WotLK was absolutely hated by vanilla players back in the day etc.).

    It's sad that even smart people like Adam of YourMovieSucksDotOrg started clickbaiting lately; they can't escape it; it's the money making.
    Clickbait like that only works sometimes and you do realise that this goes both ways too, right? Youtubers who are generally seen as "blizzard shills" put out clickbait titles as well.

    Either way, Asmongold, Preach and Bellular are people who have been consistently popular for YEARS during good and bad times and they have both praised and criticised the game. No one who does just negative clickbait content has been this successful or lasted this long.

    With your comment you are implying that the game is good and that people are only criticising the game for views on the internet, meanwhile WoW has lost a fuckton of subs and people criticise it all over the place and keep quitting the game.

    Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well. I remember the haters back then too, but all of that hate back then was limited (ofc you cannot make everyone happy, that's not the point). The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time. Also Preach (who was already around that time) liked Wrath and so did Asmon and Bellular.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    I gotta agree with this. People like to bash on streamers a lot because a lot of them have trolly personas (like asmon) but in reality a lot of their views (the not extreme ones) do actually reflect views that a big % of the community actually upholds.
    For example, blizzard making intentionally flawed designs only to go back and fix them a year into each expansion. This has especially been the case from Legion onwards. While Legion was overall a good expansion (for other reasons), it had a lot of flawed designs that were pointed out since beta but were not fixed until much later on. Same exact thing in BfA and same exact thing in SL.
    Seeing this happen for 3 expansions in a row has kind of convinced me that this is an intentional strategy deployed by them which does not seem to be working very well.
    Yeah it's definitely intentional.

    Legion was good despite its flaws, because they've released so much good content IMO. But I guess with BfA and SL they figured out they could do the same as in Legion, but with less content. This is of course speculation, but I think they are doing this strategy to keep people subscribed for longer or at least make more people return when they get notice that it's been fixed.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Clickbait like that only works sometimes and you do realise that this goes both ways too, right? Youtubers who are generally seen as "blizzard shills" put out clickbait titles as well.

    Either way, Asmongold, Preach and Bellular are people who have been consistently popular for YEARS during good and bad times and they have both praised and criticised the game. No one who does just negative clickbait content has been this successful or lasted this long.

    With your comment you are implying that the game is good and that people are only criticising the game for views on the internet, meanwhile WoW has lost a fuckton of subs and people criticise it all over the place and keep quitting the game.

    Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well. I remember the haters back then too, but all of that hate back then was limited (ofc you cannot make everyone happy, that's not the point). The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time. Also Preach (who was already around that time) liked Wrath and so did Asmon and Bellular.
    You are talking to a strawman. I find the click-baiters that are pro-Blizzard no-matter what (e.g. the latest favorite of Wowhead) disgusting even more.

    I think your problem is that you don't realize most youtubers START genuine and then become a cold business; it's why I mentioned YMS.org.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

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