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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well.
    I find that argument is always a deadbeat argument that is applied without any nuance.

    Yeah, Wrath and to some extent, TBC was controversial at the time, because they introduced controversial features / changes.
    Take Wrath 5man Heroics for example, a lot of people who really enjoyed the challenging heroics of TBC were justifably upset by the fact that 5man heroics became flyover content.

    I don't want go over every single change, but it's natural that some people are being alienated by certain changes and they voice their discontent, even if they are in the grand scheme of things in a minority.
    Not every person will declare 5man dungeons as their core content and willing to trash an entire expansion because of that one element, but those that had a bone to pick with those changes, frankly just left the game.
    It may be a minority at first, but those "minorities" sure added up over the years, after all, i don't think all the players on Classic / TBC servers aren't fresh players but rather players that dropped the game during the last decade.

    I think however what made these expansions different is that those expansions still had made large improvements in other areas.
    Sure, you can dislike TBC because it added flying if you dislike that, but you can't disregard that it also made massive improvements in the areas of class design, if you were a hybrid dps in Classic, coming into TBC was naturally a huge blessing.
    Which in my opinion is also a critical issue with the modern expansions, it's not just the pile of flaws, it's the absence of redeemable qualities.

    People just love using hyperbole when they criticize something and people love using that hyperbole as rationalization to dismiss feedback or opinion even when it has some legitimacy at its core.

    This entire argument is just a variation of "Rome has never fallen, so it will not fall now" to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time.
    I think this also a huge factor, back in TBC / Wotlk, criticism towards the game still had to argue against its objective success at the time.

    Nowadays shit is just extremely nebulous because Blizzard refuses to share any numbers outside of initial sales of expansions and frankly, any "hard numbers" are gained by scraping the API and those aren't showing the most healthiest numbers.

    Add to this that Blizzard literally said "There are better metrics to measure the health of the game", while it doesn't matter to Blizzard whether that bottomline mostly comes from a bunch of whales or a broad audience via monthly subs, to a lot of players that however makes a difference.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I find that argument is always a deadbeat argument that is applied without any nuance.

    Yeah, Wrath and to some extent, TBC was controversial at the time, because they introduced controversial features / changes.
    Take Wrath 5man Heroics for example, a lot of people who really enjoyed the challenging heroics of TBC were justifably upset by the fact that 5man heroics became flyover content.

    I don't want go over every single change, but it's natural that some people are being alienated by certain changes and they voice their discontent, even if they are in the grand scheme of things in a minority.
    Not every person will declare 5man dungeons as their core content and willing to trash an entire expansion because of that one element, but those that had a bone to pick with those changes, frankly just left the game.
    It may be a minority at first, but those "minorities" sure added up over the years, after all, i don't think all the players on Classic / TBC servers aren't fresh players but rather players that dropped the game during the last decade.

    I think however what made these expansions different is that those expansions still had made large improvements in other areas.
    Sure, you can dislike TBC because it added flying if you dislike that, but you can't disregard that it also made massive improvements in the areas of class design, if you were a hybrid dps in Classic, coming into TBC was naturally a huge blessing.
    Which in my opinion is also a critical issue with the modern expansions, it's not just the pile of flaws, it's the absence of redeemable qualities.

    People just love using hyperbole when they criticize something and people love using that hyperbole as rationalization to dismiss feedback or opinion even when it has some legitimacy at its core.

    This entire argument is just a variation of "Rome has never fallen, so it will not fall now" to me.

    I think this also a huge factor, back in TBC / Wotlk, criticism towards the game still had to argue against its objective success at the time.

    Nowadays shit is just extremely nebulous because Blizzard refuses to share any numbers outside of initial sales of expansions and frankly, any "hard numbers" are gained by scraping the API and those aren't showing the most healthiest numbers.

    Add to this that Blizzard literally said "There are better metrics to measure the health of the game", while it doesn't matter to Blizzard whether that bottomline mostly comes from a bunch of whales or a broad audience via monthly subs, to a lot of players that however makes a difference.
    They don't actually share initial sales numbers either. They point out that with digital sales its become a "faster" selling game but that isn't the same as giving out numbers.

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    They don't actually share initial sales numbers either. They point out that with digital sales its become a "faster" selling game but that isn't the same as giving out numbers.
    They do share numbers, just the "first day", SL sold 3.7M copies on the first day, which obviously includes pre orders, but it's still sales.

  4. #824
    The harshest critic WoW has ever had is also likely the most beloved YouTube game critic in the history of YouTube: Total Biscuit. He was eventually so disgusted with what Blizzard was doing that he dropped WoW completely way back around Cataclysm or maybe earlier, can't remember exactly. Can't remember anyone calling him a clickbait hater even though his videos were titled similarly to Preach and Bellular's and, if anything, he was way more critical of Blizzard than they are. And he didn't even get as much into the actual nuts and bolts of the game, he was more pissed off at the cash shop than anything. Remember, Sparkle Pony was originally called TRH because of TB.

  5. #825
    Listening to people that jump to next ship as soon as they get bored is smart. Design the game for us actually play it because its fun.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    This is such a stupid comment, how old are you?

    Out of all bad takes anyone can ever make, saying "do it better yourself" in this context is by far the worst.

    FYI, not everyone on the planet lives in Orange County, CA and its surrounding and not everyone wants to work for a different company just so they can have more fun playing a game LOL. Why would I join a company like Blizzard after it's been known (for years actually) that the salaries are bad and that the work culture is harsh? Also they do hire junior developers, 3d artists with no experience as well...
    Older than you it seems if you responded like this... What is there not to understand?
    I don't mind criticism of devs or anyone else, but Bellular is complaining about stuff that he has no clue about, yet still he thinks and acts like he is the world class developer. He is not a dev, he is not a raider, he is not a PVPer... what does he even do in WOW? Only thing he knows about is how to earn money from flaming other people/companies.

  7. #827
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    This thread will not go very far.
    How do you feel now?
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    yea thats a fair point, allthought it was legion that royally screwed the classes not BFA (allthought BFA did put fuel on the fire).

    aye, for me SL was the final nail in the coffin, and honestly i dont believe they can recover from it now, especielly not with the lawsuits, kotick etc
    what do u mean by Legion screwed the classes? common sensus was that Legion was one of the best expansions ever in that regard. a lot of classes peaked gameplay wise. do you mean where borrowed power started? Cuz i totally agree with that, the fact it was borrowed power (that was great) and u lost it going into BFA without the gap being filled was a major player in how awful classes turned out.

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    what do u mean by Legion screwed the classes? common sensus was that Legion was one of the best expansions ever in that regard. a lot of classes peaked gameplay wise.
    Big issue was that in order to unlock the full toolkit of your class, you had acquire legendaries and farm AP.

    On a more general level, Legion put a big emphasis on spec identity over class fantasy, where different specs within a single class barely had any shared abilities or similiar playstyle.
    It's something they've tried to combat in SL with the whole "unpruning" thing.

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    They do share numbers, just the "first day", SL sold 3.7M copies on the first day, which obviously includes pre orders, but it's still sales.
    "Burning your good will."
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  11. #831
    So in regards to Legion and Shadowlands.

    Whats more a more fun way to get legendaries?
    The random drop from a variety of content (Legion).
    A deterministic "grind" to craft the specific one you want (Shadowlands)

    Now for me personally the funny thing is. During Legion i would have said the SL way of doing it is better. But after playing both i highly prefer Legion's way of doing it. Now ofc there is RNG to it, it does suck not getting your BiS one early. But there was something WoW'ish and exciting about looting the end of dungeon chest or doing your weeklies.
    The problem with tieing a deterministic grind to it is that it will quickly become a chore. Which spamming sources of legion legos never did (to me).

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Keten View Post
    The harshest critic WoW has ever had is also likely the most beloved YouTube game critic in the history of YouTube: Total Biscuit. He was eventually so disgusted with what Blizzard was doing that he dropped WoW completely way back around Cataclysm or maybe earlier, can't remember exactly. Can't remember anyone calling him a clickbait hater even though his videos were titled similarly to Preach and Bellular's and, if anything, he was way more critical of Blizzard than they are. And he didn't even get as much into the actual nuts and bolts of the game, he was more pissed off at the cash shop than anything. Remember, Sparkle Pony was originally called TRH because of TB.
    The difference is that TB was consistent in his issues with wow. Bellular isn't. His criticisms change like the wind, the biggest one being one week all parts of the game are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard for people to get into, then the next week the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to get into. Polar opposites that can't exist in the same game.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Essem View Post
    So in regards to Legion and Shadowlands.

    Whats more a more fun way to get legendaries?
    The random drop from a variety of content (Legion).
    A deterministic "grind" to craft the specific one you want (Shadowlands)

    Now for me personally the funny thing is. During Legion i would have said the SL way of doing it is better. But after playing both i highly prefer Legion's way of doing it. Now ofc there is RNG to it, it does suck not getting your BiS one early. But there was something WoW'ish and exciting about looting the end of dungeon chest or doing your weeklies.
    The problem with tieing a deterministic grind to it is that it will quickly become a chore. Which spamming sources of legion legos never did (to me).
    Both are garbage. Balance your classes better don't do it around leggos.

  14. #834
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    I would kinda agree with you if WoW was in a good state. Which it's not.

    One thing that always stuck with me that a developer once said:

    "Player are 100% right about what the problems with the game are. But 100% wrong on how to fix it."

    I think it was Mark Rosewater. And while, by sheer number of suggestions, one is bound to be good. Most are probably crap.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    The difference is that TB was consistent in his issues with wow. Bellular isn't. His criticisms change like the wind, the biggest one being one week all parts of the game are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard for people to get into, then the next week the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to get into. Polar opposites that can't exist in the same game.
    You forget, as long as you say "I really want WoW to be better" in every video that you shit on the game in, people are morally obligated to believe you care more for the game than anybody else.
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  16. #836
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Here's a story for everyone who thinks MMO players cannot design an MMO game.

    Way back in the late 90's, there was a popular MMO named Everquest. Everquest was a very PvE focused game, with raiding, and was pretty much the premier open world MMO to play for PvE back then. It was immensely popular, despite the MMO audience being incredibly small.

    Now, the game was great at first, but the developers of Everquest began to take the game in a direction that the players did not want. Players began to complain about this direction. Devs just told them they'd like it eventually, and other things completely out of touch devs say.

    Now, there was no youtube back then, no way to make videos, but there were forums. Back on first and third party forums, there were several prominent posters, who were lauded by the community for their opinions on ways to fix the game.

    These posters wrote up huge posts, with giant bullet lists, paragraphs of information, explanation on player behavior, expectation, etc. They were incredibly well informed and well thought out posts about design. When the Everquest devs were confronted with these big posts, they dismissed them.

    "You are not developers, we are, we know how to make games, you don't." Was more or less the response, but in far more PR speak.

    So with EQ being the de facto pvp game, many continued to play it. However, ever since 1999 or so, Blizzard had been developing behind the scenes their own MMO quietly. As game developers themselves, they'd never made an MMO. This new MMO ran on the Warcraft 3 engine. The developers of the real time strategy game, Warcraft 3, decided to pursue the help and opinions of these forum posters.

    These posters were some of the original designers for WoW. Tigole, Furor, etc.

    The original WoW developement team was made up of a lot of former very visible Everquest critics who had been snubbed by both the Everquest white knights and the developers.

    Some players mocked these players for thinking they knew better than the devs. When WoW released, and Everquest began hemorrhaging players, the Everquest stans jumped in to defend Everquest. "WoW is a cartoon for kids" "It's a badly designed MMO" "Wow what a carebear MMO, you get handed so much gear for so little work". Criticism of WoW was harsh from the Everquest stans. And even moreso for the former forum posters turned MMO designers.





    Now here, years later, we have an example of people not learning from history. Bellular, Preach, Asmongold, and many other content creators are snubbed by Blizzard, and yet they are often asked to be consultants on upcoming games. These guys, basic content creators and commentators make tons of money not just on entertainment, but for their opinions on games.

    I'm fine with WoW continuing to snub the opinions of its content creators. I WANT WoW to come back from the brink, but if your hubris and pride tells you that WoW is fine with the direction it's going in, and the devs follow that line of thinking, you'll get the game you deserve. And it will most likely go the way of EQ within a few years.

    Let history repeat itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You forget, as long as you say "I really want WoW to be better" in every video that you shit on the game in, people are morally obligated to believe you care more for the game than anybody else.
    They have incredible ideas. And I believe their sincerity far more than random self admitted forum shitposters.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
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  17. #837
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    snip
    Look at Ion...he is basically like them, a whole lot of good it giving him charge
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  18. #838
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    But I mean, streamers and youtubers totally can't ACTUALLY have opinions on the game. After all, they're just doing it for the views, for the money. Nope, there's no way a content creator could have come to dislike the game over time due to stupid decisions and snubbing the community feedback. Nope, their outrage over the state of the game is aaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllll for the views.

    Thus we can just toss their opinions out without considering them (in reality because we're really uncomfortable that they're right and want to find an easy way to dismiss them)
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  19. #839
    let me tell you in this 40 mins video how blizzard is greedy but first support me on patreon sub on my yt channel buy my merch and support my non existent game

  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Thus we can just toss their opinions out without considering them
    His opinions are bad. E.g. his main point on "bad shards design; bring back tier sets" was that "in the past: tier sets were interesting!"; wat; they were absolutely banal most of the time.

    The true purpose of most youtubers is to be click-baiters; most successful ones start honestly; but after a few years many of them become monsters of click bait for money making.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-11-27 at 04:22 PM.
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