To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Yriel]

Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.

You CAN do that. In Daoc the best gear was crafted gear. Raids dropped worse gear but it had particle effects and was prettier. High end gear for the endgame (PVP) was always crafted and leveling crafts took a long time and was expensive. But the high crafters were all well known and respected on the server.
It was not a bad system imo.

[crusadernero]

I am not sure what version of the game you are playing but one of the most popular feature since Wrath was the mage tower and it had nothing to do with player power. There are also tons of other additions people like such as Chromie's quests and others, what the player base has been screaming for is engaging content. The reason players are screaming forced is because of things like Thorgast perfect example of Blizzard's flawed designed based off something fun but because they tied it to player power both the design, implementation and its popularity suffered.

Agreed. Mage tower was something I could do if I wanted, wasnt required. Torghast is something I have to do, even though I dont want to. Theres a huge difference to that. Dying over and over again in mage tower for weaponskins was my own choice, cause it didnt bring me any player power. Torghast has the stuff I need for my character to be better, so I have to do it.

Gameplay is where its at. Blizzard does well with dungeons & raids, but we need more.

[epigramx]

Youtubers are in most cases clickbaiters that devolve into a blood lust for clicks no matter what; in this case they often deploy "WOW IS DYING!1!!!1! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO WHAT WE TOLD THEM!1!!111 THE OLD EXPANSIONS WERE PERFECT!1!1111"; that is exactly the same nonsense I've been hearing since TBC (or e.g. WotLK was absolutely hated by vanilla players back in the day etc.).

It's sad that even smart people like Adam of YourMovieSucksDotOrg started clickbaiting lately; they can't escape it; it's the money making.

[Makaloff]

generally WoD content was few, not bad, massive difference between WoD and BFA for example where just login to play was horrible due to how they overfucked ur class itself as they actually (in very rare) flat out admitted
BFA had a lot of great content, but all is meaningless when u hate to even use ur character in first place to do them

because main problem of employees is having a ceo bonus salary more than the entire staff salary for an entire year combined, and so far they doing NOTHING to improve it
they using the old (sadly successful) 'look a bird' tactic where they want to show they are 'changing' without actually changing, by making bullshit useless changes
This is like u complain a building is built wrong, so the owner paint it rainbow and if u say the problem wasn't the painting will accuse u being homophobic since u hate rainbow color!

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honestly it should been easy to see, i admit i didn't see it but should been
If WoD problem was lack of content, then what about making ur class so shit that u hate to even login no matter what content there is... that's BFA
SL have a mix of BFA and WoD so far, and doubt it will be any better

yea thats a fair point, allthought it was legion that royally screwed the classes not BFA (allthought BFA did put fuel on the fire).

aye, for me SL was the final nail in the coffin, and honestly i dont believe they can recover from it now, especielly not with the lawsuits, kotick etc

[Deneios]

Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.




Did it offer max level gear and rewards equal to the end game raid at the time? No then it is irrelevant and not a good excuse to talk about try again.



The open world in classic and vanilla was ALWAYS so easy you had to basically be so fucking stupid or actually attempt at dying to die. It was never engaging.

Lionheart helm would want to have a word. Best is slot for warriors from start until naxx.

Go pull more than 3 mobs same lvl as you as a warrior or rogue twice and come back.

Fucking easymode casters talking shit about things they have no clue about.

[Vorkreist]

Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

But so do the aspects of ineptitude they do hire and let them run the game into de ground with worse design skills than the janitor.

[DechCJC]

Lionheart helm would want to have a word. Best is slot for warriors from start until naxx.

Go pull more than 3 mobs same lvl as you as a warrior or rogue twice and come back.

Fucking easymode casters talking shit about things they have no clue about.

Lol, the challenge goes from being an auto attack simulator to there being literally nothing you can do to survive.

I enjoy classic cause it’s relaxing, the only way you die is by pulling too many mobs and not retreating early.

[Bildur]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

You couldn't be more right. Good job!
And we see it with (some) movies too ... studios listening to YouTubers to try and make movies that "fits all".
Sad times indeed.

[RobertMugabe]

I am surprised such a troll thread hasn't been closed yet, but whatever.

OP is saying that you should just deal with what Blizzard does. However the irony of the linked YouTube video is that the company of Homer's bro was failing hard regardless and Homer's car was such a failure... because Homer.

Listening to player feedback is not hard and I know that there are several topics which are controversial, as in not all players agree with them. However most of the suggestions I've seen from mentioned streamers is most of the time stuff that most people would agree with, such as this whole store mount crap, introducing new systems every time with intended flaws and only "fixing" them much much later etc etc. And I know that a lot of them really just suggest to go back to how things were back in Wrath, cata, mop as far as class design, progression etc. goes.
Of course you will not make everyone happy, but seeing how the player numbers are so low that WoW isn't the king of the MMO's in the west anymore is a clear sign that they are doing a bad job.

At this point I am sure that most of the people involved with making WoW don't really know what to do. It is clear that the vas majority of them don't really play WoW and that all of the original devs that made the game great, maintained it and even played it, are gone.

[Delever]

I am surprised such a troll thread hasn't been closed yet, but whatever.

OP is saying that you should just deal with what Blizzard does. However the irony of the linked YouTube video is that the company of Homer's bro was failing hard regardless and Homer's car was such a failure... because Homer.

Listening to player feedback is not hard and I know that there are several topics which are controversial, as in not all players agree with them. However most of the suggestions I've seen from mentioned streamers is most of the time stuff that most people would agree with, such as this whole store mount crap, introducing new systems every time with intended flaws and only "fixing" them much much later etc etc. And I know that a lot of them really just suggest to go back to how things were back in Wrath, cata, mop as far as class design, progression etc. goes.
Of course you will not make everyone happy, but seeing how the player numbers are so low that WoW isn't the king of the MMO's in the west anymore is a clear sign that they are doing a bad job.

At this point I am sure that most of the people involved with making WoW don't really know what to do. It is clear that the vas majority of them don't really play WoW and that all of the original devs that made the game great, maintained it and even played it, are gone.

I gotta agree with this. People like to bash on streamers a lot because a lot of them have trolly personas (like asmon) but in reality a lot of their views (the not extreme ones) do actually reflect views that a big % of the community actually upholds.
For example, blizzard making intentionally flawed designs only to go back and fix them a year into each expansion. This has especially been the case from Legion onwards. While Legion was overall a good expansion (for other reasons), it had a lot of flawed designs that were pointed out since beta but were not fixed until much later on. Same exact thing in BfA and same exact thing in SL.
Seeing this happen for 3 expansions in a row has kind of convinced me that this is an intentional strategy deployed by them which does not seem to be working very well.

[RobertMugabe]

Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

This is such a stupid comment, how old are you?

Out of all bad takes anyone can ever make, saying "do it better yourself" in this context is by far the worst.

FYI, not everyone on the planet lives in Orange County, CA and its surrounding and not everyone wants to work for a different company just so they can have more fun playing a game LOL. Why would I join a company like Blizzard after it's been known (for years actually) that the salaries are bad and that the work culture is harsh? Also they do hire junior developers, 3d artists with no experience as well...

- - - Updated - - -

Youtubers are in most cases clickbaiters that devolve into a blood lust for clicks no matter what; in this case they often deploy "WOW IS DYING!1!!!1! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO WHAT WE TOLD THEM!1!!111 THE OLD EXPANSIONS WERE PERFECT!1!1111"; that is exactly the same nonsense I've been hearing since TBC (or e.g. WotLK was absolutely hated by vanilla players back in the day etc.).

It's sad that even smart people like Adam of YourMovieSucksDotOrg started clickbaiting lately; they can't escape it; it's the money making.

Clickbait like that only works sometimes and you do realise that this goes both ways too, right? Youtubers who are generally seen as "blizzard shills" put out clickbait titles as well.

Either way, Asmongold, Preach and Bellular are people who have been consistently popular for YEARS during good and bad times and they have both praised and criticised the game. No one who does just negative clickbait content has been this successful or lasted this long.

With your comment you are implying that the game is good and that people are only criticising the game for views on the internet, meanwhile WoW has lost a fuckton of subs and people criticise it all over the place and keep quitting the game.

Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well. I remember the haters back then too, but all of that hate back then was limited (ofc you cannot make everyone happy, that's not the point). The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time. Also Preach (who was already around that time) liked Wrath and so did Asmon and Bellular.

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I gotta agree with this. People like to bash on streamers a lot because a lot of them have trolly personas (like asmon) but in reality a lot of their views (the not extreme ones) do actually reflect views that a big % of the community actually upholds.
For example, blizzard making intentionally flawed designs only to go back and fix them a year into each expansion. This has especially been the case from Legion onwards. While Legion was overall a good expansion (for other reasons), it had a lot of flawed designs that were pointed out since beta but were not fixed until much later on. Same exact thing in BfA and same exact thing in SL.
Seeing this happen for 3 expansions in a row has kind of convinced me that this is an intentional strategy deployed by them which does not seem to be working very well.

Yeah it's definitely intentional.

Legion was good despite its flaws, because they've released so much good content IMO. But I guess with BfA and SL they figured out they could do the same as in Legion, but with less content. This is of course speculation, but I think they are doing this strategy to keep people subscribed for longer or at least make more people return when they get notice that it's been fixed.

[epigramx]

Clickbait like that only works sometimes and you do realise that this goes both ways too, right? Youtubers who are generally seen as "blizzard shills" put out clickbait titles as well.

Either way, Asmongold, Preach and Bellular are people who have been consistently popular for YEARS during good and bad times and they have both praised and criticised the game. No one who does just negative clickbait content has been this successful or lasted this long.

With your comment you are implying that the game is good and that people are only criticising the game for views on the internet, meanwhile WoW has lost a fuckton of subs and people criticise it all over the place and keep quitting the game.

Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well. I remember the haters back then too, but all of that hate back then was limited (ofc you cannot make everyone happy, that's not the point). The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time. Also Preach (who was already around that time) liked Wrath and so did Asmon and Bellular.

You are talking to a strawman. I find the click-baiters that are pro-Blizzard no-matter what (e.g. the latest favorite of Wowhead) disgusting even more.

I think your problem is that you don't realize most youtubers START genuine and then become a cold business; it's why I mentioned YMS.org.

[Kralljin]

Your whole argument about TBC, Wrath etc. is so pointless as well.

I find that argument is always a deadbeat argument that is applied without any nuance.

Yeah, Wrath and to some extent, TBC was controversial at the time, because they introduced controversial features / changes.
Take Wrath 5man Heroics for example, a lot of people who really enjoyed the challenging heroics of TBC were justifably upset by the fact that 5man heroics became flyover content.

I don't want go over every single change, but it's natural that some people are being alienated by certain changes and they voice their discontent, even if they are in the grand scheme of things in a minority.
Not every person will declare 5man dungeons as their core content and willing to trash an entire expansion because of that one element, but those that had a bone to pick with those changes, frankly just left the game.
It may be a minority at first, but those "minorities" sure added up over the years, after all, i don't think all the players on Classic / TBC servers aren't fresh players but rather players that dropped the game during the last decade.

I think however what made these expansions different is that those expansions still had made large improvements in other areas.
Sure, you can dislike TBC because it added flying if you dislike that, but you can't disregard that it also made massive improvements in the areas of class design, if you were a hybrid dps in Classic, coming into TBC was naturally a huge blessing.
Which in my opinion is also a critical issue with the modern expansions, it's not just the pile of flaws, it's the absence of redeemable qualities.

People just love using hyperbole when they criticize something and people love using that hyperbole as rationalization to dismiss feedback or opinion even when it has some legitimacy at its core.

This entire argument is just a variation of "Rome has never fallen, so it will not fall now" to me.

The game was still gaining subs or they at least could maintain it, despite so many competitor MMO's launching at that time.

I think this also a huge factor, back in TBC / Wotlk, criticism towards the game still had to argue against its objective success at the time.

Nowadays shit is just extremely nebulous because Blizzard refuses to share any numbers outside of initial sales of expansions and frankly, any "hard numbers" are gained by scraping the API and those aren't showing the most healthiest numbers.

Add to this that Blizzard literally said "There are better metrics to measure the health of the game", while it doesn't matter to Blizzard whether that bottomline mostly comes from a bunch of whales or a broad audience via monthly subs, to a lot of players that however makes a difference.

[Log Cabin]

I find that argument is always a deadbeat argument that is applied without any nuance.

Yeah, Wrath and to some extent, TBC was controversial at the time, because they introduced controversial features / changes.
Take Wrath 5man Heroics for example, a lot of people who really enjoyed the challenging heroics of TBC were justifably upset by the fact that 5man heroics became flyover content.

I don't want go over every single change, but it's natural that some people are being alienated by certain changes and they voice their discontent, even if they are in the grand scheme of things in a minority.
Not every person will declare 5man dungeons as their core content and willing to trash an entire expansion because of that one element, but those that had a bone to pick with those changes, frankly just left the game.
It may be a minority at first, but those "minorities" sure added up over the years, after all, i don't think all the players on Classic / TBC servers aren't fresh players but rather players that dropped the game during the last decade.

I think however what made these expansions different is that those expansions still had made large improvements in other areas.
Sure, you can dislike TBC because it added flying if you dislike that, but you can't disregard that it also made massive improvements in the areas of class design, if you were a hybrid dps in Classic, coming into TBC was naturally a huge blessing.
Which in my opinion is also a critical issue with the modern expansions, it's not just the pile of flaws, it's the absence of redeemable qualities.

People just love using hyperbole when they criticize something and people love using that hyperbole as rationalization to dismiss feedback or opinion even when it has some legitimacy at its core.

This entire argument is just a variation of "Rome has never fallen, so it will not fall now" to me.

I think this also a huge factor, back in TBC / Wotlk, criticism towards the game still had to argue against its objective success at the time.

Nowadays shit is just extremely nebulous because Blizzard refuses to share any numbers outside of initial sales of expansions and frankly, any "hard numbers" are gained by scraping the API and those aren't showing the most healthiest numbers.

Add to this that Blizzard literally said "There are better metrics to measure the health of the game", while it doesn't matter to Blizzard whether that bottomline mostly comes from a bunch of whales or a broad audience via monthly subs, to a lot of players that however makes a difference.

They don't actually share initial sales numbers either. They point out that with digital sales its become a "faster" selling game but that isn't the same as giving out numbers.

[Kralljin]

They don't actually share initial sales numbers either. They point out that with digital sales its become a "faster" selling game but that isn't the same as giving out numbers.

They do share numbers, just the "first day", SL sold 3.7M copies on the first day, which obviously includes pre orders, but it's still sales.

[Speedlance]

Listening to people that jump to next ship as soon as they get bored is smart. Design the game for us actually play it because its fun.

[Kauko]

This is such a stupid comment, how old are you?

Out of all bad takes anyone can ever make, saying "do it better yourself" in this context is by far the worst.

FYI, not everyone on the planet lives in Orange County, CA and its surrounding and not everyone wants to work for a different company just so they can have more fun playing a game LOL. Why would I join a company like Blizzard after it's been known (for years actually) that the salaries are bad and that the work culture is harsh? Also they do hire junior developers, 3d artists with no experience as well...

Older than you it seems if you responded like this... What is there not to understand?
I don't mind criticism of devs or anyone else, but Bellular is complaining about stuff that he has no clue about, yet still he thinks and acts like he is the world class developer. He is not a dev, he is not a raider, he is not a PVPer... what does he even do in WOW? Only thing he knows about is how to earn money from flaming other people/companies.

[DeltrusDisc]

This thread will not go very far.

How do you feel now?

[Tumile]

yea thats a fair point, allthought it was legion that royally screwed the classes not BFA (allthought BFA did put fuel on the fire).

aye, for me SL was the final nail in the coffin, and honestly i dont believe they can recover from it now, especielly not with the lawsuits, kotick etc

what do u mean by Legion screwed the classes? common sensus was that Legion was one of the best expansions ever in that regard. a lot of classes peaked gameplay wise. do you mean where borrowed power started? Cuz i totally agree with that, the fact it was borrowed power (that was great) and u lost it going into BFA without the gap being filled was a major player in how awful classes turned out.

[Kralljin]

what do u mean by Legion screwed the classes? common sensus was that Legion was one of the best expansions ever in that regard. a lot of classes peaked gameplay wise.

Big issue was that in order to unlock the full toolkit of your class, you had acquire legendaries and farm AP.

On a more general level, Legion put a big emphasis on spec identity over class fantasy, where different specs within a single class barely had any shared abilities or similiar playstyle.
It's something they've tried to combat in SL with the whole "unpruning" thing.