To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[niztheundead87]

So...we're back at this?

I'll just reiterate myself, if you want to criticize him for klickbaiting, go ahead, that is nothing where i have ever argued against.
I do however point out that he's talking about something that is relevant to raiding, which is the timegate during the 1st week.
It's just a different topic whether someone criticizes a content creator for klickbaiting or his content containing false / inaccurate information.

The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.

As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".

...this whole chart is unnecessarily bloated with stuff like Doom lord Kazzak (which you don't need for any attunements), the Arcatraz key (which is completely optional), Shadowlabs key (which is also optional), Shattered Hells key (again, optional), contains inacurrate information (you don't need Keepers of Time revered for MH) or you can start working on attunements before hitting cap.

It also completely ignores that most activities can be lined with gearing your character, if you hit cap, you should be doing Normal Mode dungeons...where you get rep, then you can do Heroic dungeons for gear+Badges, then you should be doing entry raids for, guess what, gear.

And that's not even mentioning that this chart represents the attunement of the enterity of TBC, you know, which is an entire expansion.
This is just another bad faith argument, no regularly played character has to complete the entire attunement process of TBC within a single day.

Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC71jhdHqQ&t=900s

play the video around 15:00
quote : we dont know her true plan , video tittle , HER TRUE PLAN REVEALED proceeds to say we dont know her true plan

quote comment on youtube from random person : Bellular Title: ‘Her True Plan Revealed’
Bellular Content: ‘We don’t know her plan’

[Rageonit]

The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.
As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".

Why should they combat anything, though? They are not at war. Bickering with youtubers is a sure way to waste time, because there, too, is no winning. Just look around you. The whole idea that a director of a game should be scoring some internet points with the angry community is silly. Just move along and continue doing your thing.

[Kageaki]

Asmongold Says what he thinks of it here.

He says it's fucking stupid which doesn't take much and then proceeds to rationalize his wow hate bandwagon circlejerk by defending FFXIV in the same sentence where he mentions the shop lol.. It's pretty obvious his butthurt stems not from objectivity but from the fact that blizzard dislikes him while yoshi p is more favorable towards him. Again, show me some videosta of these guys where they hold FFXIV to the same standards as wow and I'll change my mind of them being outrage prophets. Having siad that, I don't think asmon is that clickbaity and he's more genuine, now preach and and bellular on the other hand..

[HansLolo]

Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC71jhdHqQ&t=900s

play the video around 15:00
quote : we dont know her true plan , video tittle , HER TRUE PLAN REVEALED proceeds to say we dont know her true plan

quote comment on youtube from random person : Bellular Title: ‘Her True Plan Revealed’
Bellular Content: ‘We don’t know her plan’

It's really pissing me off - such a big youtuber with 900K subs, actually misleading so many and been doing it for sometime now. And people like Krall is defending him as they see somehow value in his uploads.

[Kralljin]

Why should they combat anything, though? They are not at war.

If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".

Just move along and continue doing your thing.

Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.

Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all

Again, now what?
Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.

[niztheundead87]

If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".

Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.

Again, now what?
Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.

so again why would anyone listen to bellular since he doesnt even play the game and knows no more than anyone else

[Cthulhu 2020]

"Content" is a very generous word for some grinds this game had in the past. Thanks, I'll wait. Waiting has this huge benefit that you do it only once. Have fun repeating the grind on every character. Here's a friendly advice: read a book while waiting, it will make it a lot more bearable.

Completing heroic dungeons, completing reps, completing RAIDS, yes, absolutely none of this is "content".



Get over it dude. Arbitrary time gating where you have to wait around is boring. Having a goal to work towards and having to put in that work is engaging, even if many people did not like it.

Also your argument shifted from "THE GAME DID TIME GATING IN THE PAST" to "YEAH WELL IT'S NOT FUN TO DO IT ON MULTIPLE CHARACTERS" when it was demonstrated that attunement processes were not arbitrary time gating. Just because attunements were a pain in the ass to do on alts doesn't make time gating any less shitty.

[Rageonit]

If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

What's the point, though? Go convince people that taxes are good for them.
You either enjoy it or you don't, no amount of convincing will change that. It is what it is, man - all the rest is forum goers making up statistical numbers to suit their narrative. For me, the case is simple: the game lives, so it does well enough. I play MMOs long enough to know there's no magical way of making them successful, and I'm very wary of any "community feedback". WoW outlived many games that were supposed to kill it, therefore it does something right. That it's dying right now? Man, I'm hearing that since what, WotLK? At some point, you just stop paying attention to the doomsayers. Like the guy above, they're saying the same thing since like fifteen years now.

[HansLolo]

If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".

Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.

Again, now what?
Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.

https://youtu.be/UBujbeKgVyE

Watch it and help me understand - how this is healthy for community:

TLDR:
SL sold more than BFA - therefor more raid kills are expected(true - in a perfect sandbox world, with no variables - such as returning WoW players, first timers etc.).

The plot: BUT - the graph shows that less people have been killing the last boss of SL compared to BFA.

The indirect conclusion: Wow is dead - sell your accounts.

There are so many plot holes in this, that makes me furious. His audience is eating this as some reliable data, it actually makes me hate the community, rather than the product.

[NineSpine]

"Content" is a very generous word for some grinds this game had in the past. Thanks, I'll wait. Waiting has this huge benefit that you do it only once. Have fun repeating the grind on every character. Here's a friendly advice: read a book while waiting, it will make it a lot more bearable.

It's not one or the other. They could also just... put the content in the game. It's amazing that Blizzard has convinced you that it's awesome that they wait to give you access to content just to make sure they get the next month sub from you.

[Kralljin]

keep throwing whataboutism dude

"Please stick to the original topic"
"Oh yeah, whataboutism".

Whataboutism is to point out the hypocrisy of someone else by citing an unrelated subject without refuting any claims.
A reminder to stick to the original topic isn't Whataboutism, it's "get back to the actual topic".

[NineSpine]

What's the point, though? Go convince people that taxes are good for them.
You either enjoy it or you don't, no amount of convincing will change that. It is what it is, man - all the rest is forum goers making up statistical numbers to suit their narrative. For me, the case is simple: the game lives, so it does well enough. I play MMOs long enough to know there's no magical way of making them successful, and I'm very wary of any "community feedback". WoW outlived many games that were supposed to kill it, therefore it does something right. That it's dying right now? Man, I'm hearing that since what, WotLK? At some point, you just stop paying attention to the doomsayers. Like the guy above, they're saying the same thing since like fifteen years now.

It's painfully obvious that the game is in a bad state, and denying that is unreasonable at this point. Just because past forecasts of doom and gloom were wrong doesn't mean we can ignore the corpse lying on the floor.

- - - Updated - - -

I asked that question - until recently, he officially announced his own game studio. The business boy in me said "such a douchebag move to steal players by bashing a product for last 2 years and having a career out of clickbait-infowar model".

You think that Bellular dislikes WoW and promotes Final Fantasy 14 because he wants to drive wow players to his... single player adventure game?

Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

[niztheundead87]

"Please stick to the original topic"
"Oh yeah, whataboutism".

Whataboutism is to point out the hypocrisy of someone else by citing an unrelated subject without refuting any claims.
A reminder to stick to the original topic isn't Whataboutism, it's "get back to the actual topic".

keep evading the question bro and proving my point

[Rageonit]

It's painfully obvious that the game is in a bad state, and denying that is unreasonable at this point. Just because past forecasts of doom and gloom were wrong doesn't mean we can ignore the corpse lying on the floor.

Sure, man. It is, was, and will be in a bad state. I don't mind, never did; and will continue enjoying the corpse. You repeating over and over that it's not moving doesn't make it any less fun, so... /shrug

[NineSpine]

He says it's fucking stupid which doesn't take much and then proceeds to rationalize his wow hate bandwagon circlejerk by defending FFXIV in the same sentence where he mentions the shop lol.. It's pretty obvious his butthurt stems not from objectivity but from the fact that blizzard dislikes him while yoshi p is more favorable towards him. Again, show me some videosta of these guys where they hold FFXIV to the same standards as wow and I'll change my mind of them being outrage prophets. Having siad that, I don't think asmon is that clickbaity and he's more genuine, now preach and and bellular on the other hand..

It's no more complicated than the fact that it is easy to see the flaws in a game that is unfun and has developers that are antagonistic and condescending toward players.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, man. It is, was, and will be in a bad state. I don't mind, never did; and will continue enjoying the corpse. You repeating over and over that it's not moving doesn't make it any less fun, so... /shrug

I've never said the game was in a bad start until recently. But if you think we should ignore all the data because you are having fun, I don't know what to tell you. The game is in a bad state. That's just a fact.

WoW is an absolutely amazing, great game for a certain subset of players that like doing very specific things. But that is not going to change that it has drove out a substantial number of players recently who are not in that subset. The game has become too narrow. It has nothing for me anymore, nothing for my friends anymore, and we aren't alone. The numbers don't lie.

[HansLolo]

It's painfully obvious that the game is in a bad state, and denying that is unreasonable at this point. Just because past forecasts of doom and gloom were wrong doesn't mean we can ignore the corpse lying on the floor.

- - - Updated - - -



You think that Bellular dislikes WoW and promotes Final Fantasy 14 because he wants to drive wow players to his... single player adventure game?

Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

I suggest watching this TED talk(unfortunately - I forgot the professors name).

The plot: everything was better in 90s/early 00s - less violence, more jobs, more equality, less war etc.
The actual data: it's completely opposite - in some case 1000% times better today and for a fact better than ever in the mankind history.

What we read and discuss affect our perspective - I know you can't really compare this to a product - but we tend to be much more negative and pessimistic, when we "look back to the good old days".

You can't expect that a game almost 18 years old to keep it's audience - but it's the only real product, who still stands firm despite everything. You can at least give that, before moving on.

[Kralljin]

Watch it and help me understand - how this is healthy for community

So, the job of a content creator is only to make content about stuff that is "healthy for the community"?

The indirect conclusion: Wow is dead - sell your accounts.

No, this is your headcanon.

He's reporting the (public available) engagement numbers of each endgame branch, that's the long and short of it.
When someone lays out numbers that showcase a decline across every single endgame activity, then what should a person that has researched those numbers do?

Not report them?
Make promises that it's going to get better in the future?

keep evading the question bro and proving my point

Because i'm not obliged to follow when you move the goalposts.

[NineSpine]

I suggest watching this TED talk(unfortunately - I forgot the professors name).

The plot: everything was better in 90s/early 00s - less violence, more jobs, more equality, less war etc.
The actual data: it's completely opposite - in some case 1000% times better today.

I know you can't really compare this to a product - but we tend to be much more negative and pessimistic, when we "look back".

You can't expect that a game almost 18 years old to keep it's audience - but it's the only real product, who still stands firm despite everything.

But the data now shows WoW is in a bad place. The best metrics we can get for player engagement are very low. I don't know what "stand firm" means. Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Everquest, all of these games are still operational. Old School Runescape is killing it right now. Final Fantasy 14 is not a new game by any stretch and it has been consistently gaining players every year, with a massive influx this year. The idea that everyone else failed and only WoW keeps going is just not reality.

WoW could keep more of audience, but they chose to radically change the design and push casual players out of the game. This isn't a product that has remained unchanged. It has changed dramatically, and to say that we can't appreciate the impact of those changes because of vague notions of bias for the past is absurd.

[HansLolo]

So, the job of a content creator is only to make content about stuff that is "healthy for the community"?

No, this is your headcanon.

He's reporting the (public available) engagement numbers of each endgame branch, that's the long and short of it.
When someone lays out numbers that showcase a decline across every single endgame activity, then what should a person that has researched those numbers do?

Not report them?
Make promises that it's going to get better in the future?

I asked you are question - you are returning to me with a question. You have been criticized about your communication before - take that in.

What purpose does a content creator serve - if they just bash a product, they used to make a living out of?

[NineSpine]

I asked you are question - you are returning to me with a question. You have been criticized about your communication before - take that in.

What purpose does a content creator serve - if they just bash a product, they used to make a living out of?

Who is "just bashing a product"?