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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are sooooo close. The question you are missing is "What changed that made it where the game had plenty for Bellular to do in the past?"
    I asked that question - until recently, he officially announced his own game studio. The business boy in me said "such a douchebag move to steal players by bashing a product for last 2 years and having a career out of clickbait-infowar model".
    Last edited by HansLolo; 2021-11-30 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Well, there are also plenty of WoW players who feel WoW no longer caters to them. Probably in excess of 90% of them. One might not agree with these players, but even a person who is perfectly happy with the current state of the game should pause to consider why this percentage is so damned high. If one is determined to dismiss all these former players as haters, one should well ask what inspired that hate.
    Hater is a strong word; self-absorbed is probably more accurate.
    This whole idea of wondering why someone else is not enjoying the game is beyond me. I don't think Blizzard is in any obligation to please you, me or anyone else. They make the game they want to make, some people still play it (my server cluster looks healthy, even tho it's marked as low population). Clearly, enough people still play it to make it profitable, so all is good in my fantasy land. When evening comes, I will, as usual, say a prayer for all the games that were supposedly better and are already dead.

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Hater is a strong word; self-absorbed is probably more accurate.
    This whole idea of wondering why someone else is not enjoying the game is beyond me. I don't think Blizzard is in any obligation to please you, me or anyone else. They make the game they want to make, some people still play it (my server cluster looks healthy, even tho it's marked as low population). Clearly, enough people still play it to make it profitable, so all is good in my fantasy land. When evening comes, I will, as usual, say a prayer for all the games that were supposedly better and are already dead.
    This is how it goes:
    Commitment over time = the product becomes you. Any "bad" direction is some form of direct insult on you. So you need to hate - how else can you express yourself.

    This pattern is in any industry, politics, food, music, religion etc.

    You can't just move on - you made your commitment and somebody took of your investments and you feel somewhat hurt. And now you want to see it burn it to the ground, as you don't have any power to change or influence.

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    its funny that i make a point of how its all clickbait farming then proving it and then you dismiss my opinion because it doesnt fit you.
    So...we're back at this?

    I'll just reiterate myself, if you want to criticize him for klickbaiting, go ahead, that is nothing where i have ever argued against.
    I do however point out that he's talking about something that is relevant to raiding, which is the timegate during the 1st week.
    It's just a different topic whether someone criticizes a content creator for klickbaiting or his content containing false / inaccurate information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    So even if at Blizzard they do regard it as a success, I'm not at all surprised they won't do it again anytime soon.
    The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.

    As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    do that in one day as a fresh max lvl on tbc
    ...this whole chart is unnecessarily bloated with stuff like Doom lord Kazzak (which you don't need for any attunements), the Arcatraz key (which is completely optional), Shadowlabs key (which is also optional), Shattered Hells key (again, optional), contains inacurrate information (you don't need Keepers of Time revered for MH) or not even mentioning that you can start working on attunements before hitting cap.

    It also completely ignores that most activities can be lined with gearing your character, if you hit cap, you should be doing Normal Mode dungeons...where you get rep, then you can do Heroic dungeons for gear+Badges, then you should be doing entry raids for, guess what, gear.

    And that's not even mentioning that this chart represents the attunement of the enterity of TBC, you know, which is an entire expansion.
    This is just another bad faith argument, no regularly played character has to complete the entire attunement process of TBC within a single day.
    Quote Originally Posted by gosuabbbff View Post
    Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop?
    Bellular has conceded quite a few times that the cash shop in FF14 is worse than the one in WoW.
    What however adds fuels to the fire in case of WoW is that apathy among the WoW community is a lot higher than in the FF14, which naturally puts a much bigger focus on any new addition to the store.

    To quote the man himself: "they're solving design problems with business solutions".

    Preach never made any videos about the store in recent years, so i don't see the point of mentioning him at all.

    As for Asmongold, he himself already said that he doesn't like the FF14 store either, it's just that he's not nearly as invested in FF14 than he is in WoW.
    It would also be a bit weird to complain about something that has existed in the game before you even started playing it, at least Asmongold played WoW before the store existed.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-11-30 at 01:48 PM.

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by gosuabbbff View Post
    Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop? Where are the videos of these guys holding FFXIV to the same standard as they hold wow? Where are the videos of them spewing vitriol at it like they do to wow?? You ask why these streamers are so inflammatory and clickbaity, well the evidence is right there with the absence of videos where they criticize FFXIV en large. FFXIV is the community's favourite Child right now and wow is getting the hate bandwagon. Criticizing FFXIV would be stupid as it would not generate the same amount of traffic and revenue as clickbait outrage wow videos do. If anything it would turn against them and they know it
    Asmongold Says what he thinks of it here.

    https://youtu.be/FQAeK11sKT8?t=226
    Last edited by Hablion; 2021-11-30 at 01:42 PM. Reason: link timestamp
    "How you build your character is not a feature of a MMORPG, it is the feature. Everything else is secondary even the gameplay itself is secondary to building your character, its the kind of stuff you think about when you are at work or school and couldnt wait to go home to play WoW or Diablo 2. We have all done it." ~Into, 2016

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by HansLolo View Post
    This is how it goes:
    Commitment over time = the product becomes you. Any "bad" direction is some form of direct insult on you. So you need to hate - how else can you express yourself.
    This pattern is in any industry, politics, food, music, religion etc.
    You can't just move on - you made your commitment and somebody took of your investments and you feel somewhat hurt. And now you want to see it burn it to the ground, as you don't have any power to change or influence.
    Yes, sadly it's very true. I pity the people who have to invest their feelings into products of pop culture. That energy could be spent better elsewhere.

  7. #1067
    The biggest irony of these streamers? ...they will all be back
    100%

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Sariengrey View Post
    The biggest irony of these streamers? ...they will all be back
    100%
    I truely believe so.

  9. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    So...we're back at this?

    I'll just reiterate myself, if you want to criticize him for klickbaiting, go ahead, that is nothing where i have ever argued against.
    I do however point out that he's talking about something that is relevant to raiding, which is the timegate during the 1st week.
    It's just a different topic whether someone criticizes a content creator for klickbaiting or his content containing false / inaccurate information.

    The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.

    As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".

    ...this whole chart is unnecessarily bloated with stuff like Doom lord Kazzak (which you don't need for any attunements), the Arcatraz key (which is completely optional), Shadowlabs key (which is also optional), Shattered Hells key (again, optional), contains inacurrate information (you don't need Keepers of Time revered for MH) or you can start working on attunements before hitting cap.

    It also completely ignores that most activities can be lined with gearing your character, if you hit cap, you should be doing Normal Mode dungeons...where you get rep, then you can do Heroic dungeons for gear+Badges, then you should be doing entry raids for, guess what, gear.

    And that's not even mentioning that this chart represents the attunement of the enterity of TBC, you know, which is an entire expansion.
    This is just another bad faith argument, no regularly played character has to complete the entire attunement process of TBC within a single day.
    Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC71jhdHqQ&t=900s

    play the video around 15:00
    quote : we dont know her true plan , video tittle , HER TRUE PLAN REVEALED proceeds to say we dont know her true plan

    quote comment on youtube from random person : Bellular Title: ‘Her True Plan Revealed’
    Bellular Content: ‘We don’t know her plan’
    Last edited by niztheundead87; 2021-11-30 at 01:48 PM.

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.
    As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".
    Why should they combat anything, though? They are not at war. Bickering with youtubers is a sure way to waste time, because there, too, is no winning. Just look around you. The whole idea that a director of a game should be scoring some internet points with the angry community is silly. Just move along and continue doing your thing.

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by Hablion View Post
    Asmongold Says what he thinks of it here.

    He says it's fucking stupid which doesn't take much and then proceeds to rationalize his wow hate bandwagon circlejerk by defending FFXIV in the same sentence where he mentions the shop lol.. It's pretty obvious his butthurt stems not from objectivity but from the fact that blizzard dislikes him while yoshi p is more favorable towards him. Again, show me some videosta of these guys where they hold FFXIV to the same standards as wow and I'll change my mind of them being outrage prophets. Having siad that, I don't think asmon is that clickbaity and he's more genuine, now preach and and bellular on the other hand..

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC71jhdHqQ&t=900s

    play the video around 15:00
    quote : we dont know her true plan , video tittle , HER TRUE PLAN REVEALED proceeds to say we dont know her true plan

    quote comment on youtube from random person : Bellular Title: ‘Her True Plan Revealed’
    Bellular Content: ‘We don’t know her plan’
    It's really pissing me off - such a big youtuber with 900K subs, actually misleading so many and been doing it for sometime now. And people like Krall is defending him as they see somehow value in his uploads.

  13. #1073
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Why should they combat anything, though? They are not at war.
    If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

    They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Just move along and continue doing your thing.
    Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    Let go man move on his is a clickbait farmer thats all
    Again, now what?
    Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

    I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
    If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-11-30 at 01:57 PM.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

    They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".

    Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.

    Again, now what?
    Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

    I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
    If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.
    so again why would anyone listen to bellular since he doesnt even play the game and knows no more than anyone else
    Last edited by niztheundead87; 2021-11-30 at 01:58 PM.

  15. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    "Content" is a very generous word for some grinds this game had in the past. Thanks, I'll wait. Waiting has this huge benefit that you do it only once. Have fun repeating the grind on every character. Here's a friendly advice: read a book while waiting, it will make it a lot more bearable.
    Completing heroic dungeons, completing reps, completing RAIDS, yes, absolutely none of this is "content".



    Get over it dude. Arbitrary time gating where you have to wait around is boring. Having a goal to work towards and having to put in that work is engaging, even if many people did not like it.

    Also your argument shifted from "THE GAME DID TIME GATING IN THE PAST" to "YEAH WELL IT'S NOT FUN TO DO IT ON MULTIPLE CHARACTERS" when it was demonstrated that attunement processes were not arbitrary time gating. Just because attunements were a pain in the ass to do on alts doesn't make time gating any less shitty.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.
    What's the point, though? Go convince people that taxes are good for them.
    You either enjoy it or you don't, no amount of convincing will change that. It is what it is, man - all the rest is forum goers making up statistical numbers to suit their narrative. For me, the case is simple: the game lives, so it does well enough. I play MMOs long enough to know there's no magical way of making them successful, and I'm very wary of any "community feedback". WoW outlived many games that were supposed to kill it, therefore it does something right. That it's dying right now? Man, I'm hearing that since what, WotLK? At some point, you just stop paying attention to the doomsayers. Like the guy above, they're saying the same thing since like fifteen years now.

  17. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you want to convince people that it's better for the game, you should go out and convince people of that.

    They did the same thing LFR, they also went out and said "This massively boosts raid participation and thus allows us to put more resources into it".

    Hey, they've been doing that for the last 6 years and the results aren't too rosy in my opinion.

    Again, now what?
    Please quote me where i said that Bellular isn't doing klickbait content.

    I engaged you on the argument that Bellular presents false / inaccurate in his videos based on the fact that he (and i'm quoting you) "doesn't play the game".
    If you want to move to his video titles and whether they're klickbait or not, you're just moving the goalposts.
    https://youtu.be/UBujbeKgVyE

    Watch it and help me understand - how this is healthy for community:

    TLDR:
    SL sold more than BFA - therefor more raid kills are expected(true - in a perfect sandbox world, with no variables - such as returning WoW players, first timers etc.).

    The plot: BUT - the graph shows that less people have been killing the last boss of SL compared to BFA.

    The indirect conclusion: Wow is dead - sell your accounts.

    There are so many plot holes in this, that makes me furious. His audience is eating this as some reliable data, it actually makes me hate the community, rather than the product.
    Last edited by HansLolo; 2021-11-30 at 02:05 PM.

  18. #1078
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    "Content" is a very generous word for some grinds this game had in the past. Thanks, I'll wait. Waiting has this huge benefit that you do it only once. Have fun repeating the grind on every character. Here's a friendly advice: read a book while waiting, it will make it a lot more bearable.
    It's not one or the other. They could also just... put the content in the game. It's amazing that Blizzard has convinced you that it's awesome that they wait to give you access to content just to make sure they get the next month sub from you.

  19. #1079
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    keep throwing whataboutism dude
    "Please stick to the original topic"
    "Oh yeah, whataboutism".

    Whataboutism is to point out the hypocrisy of someone else by citing an unrelated subject without refuting any claims.
    A reminder to stick to the original topic isn't Whataboutism, it's "get back to the actual topic".

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    What's the point, though? Go convince people that taxes are good for them.
    You either enjoy it or you don't, no amount of convincing will change that. It is what it is, man - all the rest is forum goers making up statistical numbers to suit their narrative. For me, the case is simple: the game lives, so it does well enough. I play MMOs long enough to know there's no magical way of making them successful, and I'm very wary of any "community feedback". WoW outlived many games that were supposed to kill it, therefore it does something right. That it's dying right now? Man, I'm hearing that since what, WotLK? At some point, you just stop paying attention to the doomsayers. Like the guy above, they're saying the same thing since like fifteen years now.
    It's painfully obvious that the game is in a bad state, and denying that is unreasonable at this point. Just because past forecasts of doom and gloom were wrong doesn't mean we can ignore the corpse lying on the floor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansLolo View Post
    I asked that question - until recently, he officially announced his own game studio. The business boy in me said "such a douchebag move to steal players by bashing a product for last 2 years and having a career out of clickbait-infowar model".
    You think that Bellular dislikes WoW and promotes Final Fantasy 14 because he wants to drive wow players to his... single player adventure game?

    Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

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