1. #1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I respect that, but i'll point out that in the context of Wotlk...is this still holding up?

    You point out how it's much more instanced based in Retail, how will that be in Wotlk?
    People are just going to do dungeons, they're not going to go out in the world and do quests when they're capped, especially when the Dungeon Finder is in from the getgo, that entire social aspect you're talking about is just taking a massive hit.
    People will be sitting in Dalaran, be AFK until their queue pops, rinse and repeat.

    I fully see your point in regards to Classic, because that is built to promote social interaction at almost every angle, but i think when it comes to Wotlk, that social aspect already takes a hit.
    And giving it credit for having capital where players meet eachother...that's what i'm not going to do, because that is what literally every expansion did.

    Wotlk just didn't add anything that further promoted that sort of behavior, but considering dungeon finder was added in Wotlk, it certainly damaged it.
    Well thats what makes WotLK interesting. I mean, it was then wow had the most subs. At the same time, thats when wow started to changed a whole lot - many would argue for the worse. So while it was great(sub wise) there were controversial decisions made during that time.

    Theres many reasons why WotLK was a popular xpac, and back then wow was the big game to play. Lich King(Arthas) being the bad guy was certainly a popular villain and still is. Maybe wow "ended" for many players in WotLK with Lich king being dealt with. In any case, Wotlk changed wow a whole lot while still being widly popular in sub numbers.

    Maybe the changes in WotLK just needed time in order to see the effects. While it didnt hurt WotLK sub numbers, if effected the future of the game overall.

  2. #1342
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres many reasons why WotLK was a popular xpac
    I'm not saying Wotlk isn't a popular expansion, i am however saying that Classic did social interaction much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Maybe the changes in WotLK just needed time in order to see the effects. While it didnt hurt WotLK sub numbers, if effected the future of the game overall.
    I mean, that's my stance, more or less.

    I still think the most damaging philosophy introduced into this game is the "Play the patch" mentality.
    And that started in Wotlk.

  3. #1343
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'm not saying Wotlk isn't a popular expansion, i am however saying that Classic did social interaction much better.

    I mean, that's my stance, more or less.

    I still think the most damaging philosophy introduced into this game is the "Play the patch" mentality.
    And that started in Wotlk.
    I 100% agree with that. It sucks that most of the content in each xpac is turned into.. Nothing(?) when a new patch launches. Classic & BC overall feels more active and a living world were people venture out to do old and new content. Attunements, certain items that were old but considered good for your class and more. People had a reason to do most stuff. Now in retail, if you miss out on a content patch you have effectivly missed out on potentially good content. You wouldnt know, cause it wont matter doing it whatsoever. Retail patches is just moving closer and closer to a battlepass feature like in CoD and other games. Its probably not far off. Think renown system.

    I wastly prefer the wow of old than what it is today and im the kind of player that rather level in classic/BC than playing a whole lot of retail. But hey, thats just me. Maybe most gamers prefer retail how it is. I dont know.

  4. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Oh c'mon, this argument is just so damn disingenuous.

    Subcount has been growing since Launch but started to plateau in Wotlk, disregarding the entire growth during TBC to just to changes made in Wotlk is plain dishonest.

    Even Morhaime admitted that this constant increase of accessability has actually taken a toll on the game.
    Oh yeah, game for sure wouldn't lost any subs with a-m-a-z-i-n-g Vanilla/TBC design. It's not like game chew through 100M people just between 2004-2013 and you can't cover real spikes and downs with fresh people forever.

  5. #1345
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Oh yeah, game for sure wouldn't lost any subs with a-m-a-z-i-n-g Vanilla/TBC design. It's not like game chew through 100M people just between 2004-2013
    WoW was a cultural phenomenon at the time, it reached even people that usually did not associate themselves with video games, let alone MMO's.
    It's anecdotal, but back then, i met people at my school who i never thought would play Video games, but they played WoW for some time.

    Disregarding that, it doesn't matter how many people tried out your product, it matters how many people stay and purchase your product.

    You have to be really disengenous to take fact that "Over 100M people have tried our game!" and turn it into a negative, like please, do you think WoW was actually terrible at the time and the "good new WoW" would've kept all those people?
    Do you unironically believe that any version of WoW would've kept a number that is even remotely close to those 100M?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    you can't cover real spikes and downs with fresh people forever.
    Attempting to gain new audiences at the expense of your core audience isn't that much of a smart business strategy either, at least for MMO's, which are all about player investment.

    If you keep altering and attract new audiences, fair enough, that game is basically a rolling stone, always on the move.
    But that seems to be not the smartest strategy for an MMO, where the previous content then still exists but just rots and the devs have to constantly ask themselves whether it's worth going back and update it or to continue to ignore it.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-12-02 at 10:42 AM.

  6. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You have to be really disengenous to take fact that "Over 100M people have tried our game!" and turn it into a negative, like please, do you think WoW was actually terrible at the time and the "good new WoW" would've kept all those people?
    Do you unironically believe that any version of WoW would've kept a number that is even remotely close to those 100M?
    No, I use this number to counter very popular bullshit that wow had 12 million subs in great old times and suddenly people start quiting after Cata. If game had 100 million accounts created before 2013, but never more than 12 million subs at same time, loooot of people try and quit over time, just like now.

    If we add fact that older is WoW -> more potential players tried it, it's obvious why subs skyrocket in Vanilla, were growing in TBC, stagnate in Wrath. From Cata wave of new players is not enough to cover another obvious trend that subs have mega spike on expac launch and mini spikes on patches. Of course different expansion do better or worse job of keeping players (SL may compete with WoD for worst job simply because droughts), but there is no downfall trend.

    And Classic TBC clearly show how big catastrophe would be "not casual" expansion. On smaller scale also 9.0.

  7. #1347
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    loooot of people try and quit over time, just like now.
    I'm not sure how many people are trying out WoW nowadays, considering that game is by no means fresh and with the exception of Legion, constantly was surrounded by negative press for years by now.
    Except maybe Classic, but that's besides point.

    Frankly, the audience that "used to play WoW" is probably easier (well, at least before they burned the bridge for many players in the last 4 years) to win back and quite sizeable than some untapped audience.
    Unless they wipe the slate clean and give the game a reboot, i don't think they'll be able to attract a huge amount of new audiences, and that is unlikely considering they shot down the idea of "WoW 2" multiple times by now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    but there is no downfall trend.
    Without having access to any solid numbers, that is pure guesswork on your part.
    They even noted in the recent earnings call that the Diablo 2 remaster launch offset losses of WoW to some extent, despite the fact that 9.1 launched pretty close to Q3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    And Classic TBC clearly show how big catastrophe would be "not casual" expansion. On smaller scale also 9.0.
    Please elaborate what you mean by "Catastrophe", because Classic TBC is doing pretty fine.
    We could also go back to Classic, i don't mind, if you believe that TBC is somehow a "catastrophe", unless you want to tell me that Classic was a "catastrophe" as well.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-12-02 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #1348
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    I have been thru this same conversation regarding Classic, Classic TBC and now we're talking WotLK.

    I don't care what you think WotLK was like, you will see what WotLK actually was like when we have the Classic version.
    And you will be sitting in Dalaran for the majority of it.
    Oh, now I'm mis-remembering an expansion I played heavily? LOL, okay, Tiger. You keep doing you, I'll be over hear laughing at you.

    I won't be anywhere near Dalaran in the future, as I am not subbed to any Blizzard games, and it's very unlikely I ever will be again, given the scandals and my dislike of the game in the state it's in. But keep accusing me of things like this, to avoid admitting you were and are fight way too hard to maintain some serious, hardcore gaslighting.

  9. #1349
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadzooks View Post
    Oh, now I'm mis-remembering an expansion I played heavily? LOL, okay, Tiger. You keep doing you, I'll be over hear laughing at you.

    I won't be anywhere near Dalaran in the future, as I am not subbed to any Blizzard games, and it's very unlikely I ever will be again, given the scandals and my dislike of the game in the state it's in. But keep accusing me of things like this, to avoid admitting you were and are fight way too hard to maintain some serious, hardcore gaslighting.
    Yes, you are, that's exactly what I said.
    This phenomena is called the "rose-tinted glasses". I have two very recent examples about people being wrong how some games from 15 years ago played.

    Alright, son, how morally superior you are to us mere humans.
    Describing reality is not gaslighting but people don't really like reality on this forum that's why they keep arguing with it.

  10. #1350
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadzooks View Post
    But keep accusing me of things like this, to avoid admitting you were and are fight way too hard to maintain some serious, hardcore gaslighting.
    Mate, then take it from another person: He's right.

    Unless you're into completionism content or be artificially inefficient (such as actually bothering to do dailies for Reputation outside of the Sons of Hodir), you'll be sitting in Dalaran all day long pretty quickly.
    Especially if the Dungeon Finder is in from day one.
    Especially if you can buy Sons of Hodir Rep.

    Wotlk is even more heavy on raidlogging than Classic or TBC.

  11. #1351
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Yes, you are, that's exactly what I said.
    This phenomena is called the "rose-tinted glasses". I have two very recent examples about people being wrong how some games from 15 years ago played.

    Alright, son, how morally superior you are to us mere humans.
    Describing reality is not gaslighting but people don't really like reality on this forum that's why they keep arguing with it.
    You're a special one, aren't you? Yes, you are.

  12. #1352
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Okay... then why wasn't there a massive bump in subs when it launched in China in august 2010?
    1) it was launched way late, like 2 month pre-cata late, who even want to see it
    2) it was already (normally) losing eu/us subs, hence why it was balanced, also it didn't lose much, it didn't gain much either in china
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  13. #1353
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    1) it was launched way late, like 2 month pre-cata late, who even want to see it
    It launched in August 2010, which is like ~4 months off Cata launch.
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    also it didn't lose much, it didn't gain much either in china
    So if it didn't gain much subs in China, then why did you argue all those 10-12M Subs during Wotlk solely came from US/EU?

    Seriously, please stop this utter guesswork of arguing because you, i assume, cannot stand the thought that Wotlk doesn't have a 100% clean record in every aspect.
    It's just so damn disengenous, i'm not even saying Wotlk is bad, but disregarding the Subgrowth of Classic and TBC and essentially saying "No, all those 12M subs they're just because Wotlk was so damn awesome!" is silly.

  14. #1354
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Be careful what you wish for.


    You're basically Homer in this episode.


    Then ending of this video is Mist of Pandaria expansion

  15. #1355
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'm not sure how many people are trying out WoW nowadays, considering that game is by no means fresh and with the exception of Legion, constantly was surrounded by negative press for years by now.
    Except maybe Classic, but that's besides point.

    Frankly, the audience that "used to play WoW" is probably easier (well, at least before they burned the bridge for many players in the last 4 years) to win back and quite sizeable than some untapped audience.
    Unless they wipe the slate clean and give the game a reboot, i don't think they'll be able to attract a huge amount of new audiences, and that is unlikely considering they shot down the idea of "WoW 2" multiple times by now.

    Without having access to any solid numbers, that is pure guesswork on your part.
    They even noted in the recent earnings call that the Diablo 2 remaster launch offset losses of WoW to some extent, despite the fact that 9.1 launched pretty close to Q3.

    Please elaborate what you mean by "Catastrophe", because Classic TBC is doing pretty fine.
    We could also go back to Classic, i don't mind, if you believe that TBC is somehow a "catastrophe", unless you want to tell me that Classic was a "catastrophe" as well.
    If they wont do a reboot/wow 2, they just gotta double down on making sure new players are funneled into new/previous xpac and let everything before that literally be locked inside a cave with chromie sitting there for you to talk to - if you ever wish to see/do old content. There can be no shot of a new player risking venturing out in the "old" worlds. Once they reach max lvl, they can get a quest that explain what chromie time is and does. From there, players can decide if they wanna go there.

    I've had several friends who go overwhelmed by the sheer amount of xpacs, worlds, zones++ in wow. Even after I had explained that they could ignore most of it, it was a turn off. They said the game presented itself in a way that everything was up for grabs and that was frustrating when they asked themself - "is it worth doing X/Y?".

    It might be better now, but point still stand - New players should not risk doing anything besides new stuff. it can seriously derail the interest for new/younger audience.


    What gives me slight hope for the future of retail wow is that Blizzard now has said a book is closed when SL finishes, that goes all the back to the warcraft RTS games. If thats the case, that means we should be introduced to VERY new villains, friends, enemies, zones, world(s)++ that is not tied to the old world. To much storytelling etc in wow is tied to established characters. imagine being a new player and see Jaina, Bolvar, Thrall and so forth in SL. For them, they most likely mean nothing. FOr the veteran player, they are all important and big characters.

    Theres also no easy way of learning who each of these characters are. There arent any xpac that goes into depth about each of them, its fractured story in literally almost every xpac. some big things, some small.


    If they dont want a total revamp, atleast make the future not so dependant on the past.

  16. #1356
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    If they wont do a reboot/wow 2, they just gotta double down on making sure new players are funneled into new/previous xpac
    You mean, like they're doing it already?
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    It might be better now, but point still stand - New players should not risk doing anything besides new stuff. it can seriously derail the interest for new/younger audience.
    You're not going to win a certain audience over by very fact that it's an old game already, if "you can ignore everything from the previous expansion" isn't good enough for them, then nothing will.

    At a certain point you just have to accept the fact that something has existed before one has started the game and if they cannot, then it's simply an audience you need to pass on.
    When people want something completely fresh, a 17 year old game won't cut it.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    What gives me slight hope for the future of retail wow is that Blizzard now has said a book is closed when SL finishes, that goes all the back to the warcraft RTS games.
    The book on the RTS was effectively closed already in Wotlk with Arthas and Illidan being dead, you'd still had the Legion in the background but the majority of the material from the RTS was already chewed through at this point.

    It's not like Cata, MoP, WoD, Legion or BfA were that reliant on the RTS games, they paid homage in some aspects, but they had barely any ties to the RTS games.

    In SL, they just invented another twist to Warcraft 3, only to deal with that twist (the Jailer) in the same expansion, it's like a strawman argument of storytelling.
    They invent a new threat out of thin air at the expense of the original material, only to then defeat it in the very same expansion.

    This book did not need closure, it was already closed, the new writers felt the urge to re open that book because the Jailer had to behind everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    If thats the case, that means we should be introduced to VERY new villains, friends, enemies, zones, world(s)++ that is not tied to the old world.
    They already did that in MoP or Legion.
    Suramar was a ruined city in Warcraft 3, in Legion they pulled a Dalaran and went "actually, the city hid under some bubble".
    MoP was almost exclusively about new lore, it had barely any ties to existing lore, the "main antagonist" (Garrosh) was a fresh character, not a character featured in any RTS.

    And frankly, stuff like the Thunder King or the Mogu are in my opinion certainly one of the better addition to Warcraft lore in recent history.
    Certainly better than the new writers trying to "reframe" established work because they need to build up new villains.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    imagine being a new player and see Jaina, Bolvar, Thrall and so forth in SL. For them, they most likely mean nothing. FOr the veteran player, they are all important and big characters.
    The problem is that you cannot create characters out of nowhere and expect people to love them, one of the few character introduced in WoW that actually had a better reception were characters like Garrosh, Garrosh or Anduin and those characters took years to built.

    Any [Shadowlands] specific character will likely not be featured in the future because they're tied to the Shadowlands, not Azeroth, the most significant thing that will likely influence the next expansion will be the fate of Anduin, because as hinted by Ion, he'll be changed fundamentally.
    And in order to grasp Andiun as a character, you need to:
    Have read The Shattering book + Short stories
    Have played MoP
    Have played Legion
    Have played BfA
    Have played SL

    Right now, Blizzard set themselves up that a character that by now requires a lot of background knowledge will be a focal character of the next expansion, that doesn't scream "new player" friendly to me.

    It's a catch 22 situation, new characters will not have the same impact as established ones because those positions of relevance have to be earned over the course of years, but well established characters obviously require lots of background knowledge.

    That's why in my opinion this focus on a small set of characters is very difficult and something even single player games struggle with, because every sequel must be written with new players in mind and have to make concessions for things that established players know but new players don't.

  17. #1357
    People can have opinions on what they want and like. Sure if someone's seriously suggesting entire systems then maybe you might have point but ...."I don't like burrowed power systems" is just people stating preference

  18. #1358
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You mean, like they're doing it already?

    You're not going to win a certain audience over by very fact that it's an old game already, if "you can ignore everything from the previous expansion" isn't good enough for them, then nothing will.

    At a certain point you just have to accept the fact that something has existed before one has started the game and if they cannot, then it's simply an audience you need to pass on.
    When people want something completely fresh, a 17 year old game won't cut it.

    The book on the RTS was effectively closed already in Wotlk with Arthas and Illidan being dead, you'd still had the Legion in the background but the majority of the material from the RTS was already chewed through at this point.

    It's not like Cata, MoP, WoD, Legion or BfA were that reliant on the RTS games, they paid homage in some aspects, but they had barely any ties to the RTS games.

    In SL, they just invented another twist to Warcraft 3, only to deal with that twist (the Jailer) in the same expansion, it's like a strawman argument of storytelling.
    They invent a new threat out of thin air at the expense of the original material, only to then defeat it in the very same expansion.

    This book did not need closure, it was already closed, the new writers felt the urge to re open that book because the Jailer had to behind everything.

    They already did that in MoP or Legion.
    Suramar was a ruined city in Warcraft 3, in Legion they pulled a Dalaran and went "actually, the city hid under some bubble".
    MoP was almost exclusively about new lore, it had barely any ties to existing lore, the "main antagonist" (Garrosh) was a fresh character, not a character featured in any RTS.

    And frankly, stuff like the Thunder King or the Mogu are in my opinion certainly one of the better addition to Warcraft lore in recent history.
    Certainly better than the new writers trying to "reframe" established work because they need to build up new villains.

    The problem is that you cannot create characters out of nowhere and expect people to love them, one of the few character introduced in WoW that actually had a better reception were characters like Garrosh, Garrosh or Anduin and those characters took years to built.

    Any [Shadowlands] specific character will likely not be featured in the future because they're tied to the Shadowlands, not Azeroth, the most significant thing that will likely influence the next expansion will be the fate of Anduin, because as hinted by Ion, he'll be changed fundamentally.
    And in order to grasp Andiun as a character, you need to:
    Have read The Shattering book + Short stories
    Have played MoP
    Have played Legion
    Have played BfA
    Have played SL

    Right now, Blizzard set themselves up that a character that by now requires a lot of background knowledge will be a focal character of the next expansion, that doesn't scream "new player" friendly to me.

    It's a catch 22 situation, new characters will not have the same impact as established ones because those positions of relevance have to be earned over the course of years, but well established characters obviously require lots of background knowledge.

    That's why in my opinion this focus on a small set of characters is very difficult and something even single player games struggle with, because every sequel must be written with new players in mind and have to make concessions for things that established players know but new players don't.
    to be honest, Blizzard has never really been good at storytelling in wow. Theres tidpits here and there, theres certain questlines & big stories that have been worthwhile, but overall its been bad. I've played this game since the days of vanilla and been a lore fan most of the time, but even I have gotten most of my knowledge through the RTS games and then wow. I havent spendt alot of time reading the books, but i've seen videos and all that when I felt like it.

    So even I, a avid wow fan, have probably missed out on alot cause they from insane reason dont have all of the story within the game. Its a horrendous choice and I refuse to give them money for it by buying the books.


    As I see it, wow is great gameplay with cool zones, dungeons, raids, pvp(at times)++, and the moments I remember ofte enough comes from the smaller questlines in each xpac - not from the grand major storyline.

    Maybe wow is better off with a classic way of approach to quests etc. Not some overarching big story that drowns everything and most of the time keep people guessing whats going on, but a more on-ground questing with big and small issues to solve in each zone.

    Now the forumla is just: THIS IS THE BAD GUY! *Never heard of him before*

    late in xpac: NOW HES DEAD! CONGRATS!

  19. #1359
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It launched in August 2010, which is like ~4 months off Cata launch.
    1-since u want to be that accurate, cata pre-patch launched in october, 1 month after wrath launch in china
    2- world first Algalon was done by a chineese guild in korean server, which actually turned focus on them and caused big problem how a banned game was still played but that's a total different story here, tldr: at least most hardcore chineese wow addicts still played on different servers risking serious legal problems (sadly china doesn't joke about video games, they can literally jail u for that, if u lucky)
    3- korea servers also exist, but they were never big numbers, don't remember see them pulling even once over 1 million
    4- while u are free to counter guess, we are sure of 1 fact, all china TBC players (asian players were ~ half of player base in tbc, around 5 or 6 million) couldn't play in wrath, so tbc numbers did get a heavy hit from losing china in wrath, how did wrath still compensate for that loss my guess is from eu/us getting flood of players to cover for china missing numbers, but u can guess they were still chineese logging on usa/eu (not korea, since it again those severs never passed 1 million player) or maybe another continent came like africa or middle east (yes it started to gain popularity there) but what is fact that at very minimum 1/3 of TBC players couldn't play wrath legally

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    to be honest, Blizzard has never really been good at storytelling in wow.
    strongly disagree, we have wrathgate amazing questline or thrall ancestor questline in TBC too, heck even a small chain quest like "nothing but the truth" is still beloved for how well it was lorewise
    but u can argue that it was built on material already in wc3 and u'll be right, so maybe wow need a wc4 pause to build new material?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    People can have opinions on what they want and like. Sure if someone's seriously suggesting entire systems then maybe you might have point but ...."I don't like burrowed power systems" is just people stating preference
    i can easily, don't remove sh8t, just add new ones, that simple
    in MoP we had most buttons in wow era, with half of that were abilities that can be used in specific conditions/moments, give us more that
    i want a button that i use 1 time in raid than well, the nothing that we have now
    i want return of buff system, if u say it is waste of time then u ignore what RPG is, yes that is a core rpg experience, instead of what we have now
    heck i loved walking/flying around world, also i do admit i wonder if i'd still love it if we had WQs in old azeroth and must go back and forth and not once every dungeon/raid run (u can ignore that point)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  20. #1360
    I'll take the critical thoughts, opinions and suggestions of the Bellulars, Asmongolds and Preaches over you mindless Blizzard drones any day of the week. If there's no critical voice out there stagnation is the only outcome as devs realize they can get away with less because the fanbase irrationally simps for them and swallows everything.

    Whether those content creators are right is a different matter, but trying to silence them like you guys are doing is a slam dunk mistake.

    You guys are the reason the game is in the state it's in. You have no standards and are just wagging your tails at Blizzard while actively attempting to silence any dissenting opinion. Just look at this Relapses guy on these forums, it's honestly pathetic.
    Last edited by Ashina; 2021-12-06 at 10:24 AM.

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