To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Kallisto]

Some of the best game designers started out as passionate fans, Ion was a guild master to a tryhardcore guild and a lawyer. Ion turned out to be an amazing raid designer. If Asmongold and Preach were in charge of the game maybe they could avoid all the deliberating and just actually make some positive changes, because half the improvements Blizzard come up with a year too late are what people were suggesting 3 months before the content released.

Blizzards biggest problem is ignoring all feedback and doing nothing, then being proven wrong time after time.

IF asmongold made the game it would be an absolute mess where he'd get all the gear regardless of what the actual gear rules are and then say how him ninjaing loot is great for the community because reasons.

[Lolites]

You need a little of both. Criticism should never be offered without a suggested solution.

eeeh... i dont completely agree, you can offer criticism without solution, if you are precise with it
saying system is shit bcs idk, its slowing down the combat (just example ) is good enough criticism, its their job to came up with solution
saying its shit bcs its shit is... pointless at best

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Blizzard creates the system, players give the feedback, Blizzard adjusts the system to the feedback.

uuf... changing everythiong on a whim of players, even if it was possible (its not), would be terribe idea...
even if you just look around MMO-C, there are threads that wow is too hard and wow is too easy... how exactly would you listen to both of this opinions? not to mention both are at least in my opinion incorrect

[Okacz]

actualy, no, you are proven they were wrong, that doesnt automaticaly make you right... your idea might end up being even worse than what they did...

Well, if you say they should stop using jellybeans instead of cement, and they do stop it after bridge starts wobbling, you were onto something.

That's the thing, people complaining are actually coming up with the solutions. Apparently good ones, since Blizzard decides to implement them months after expansion was released. Was that it? Is the true "genius of game design" hidden behind the fact that Maw intro is unskippable, covenant energy pointlessly limits your options and changing cov is a real goddamn hassle until 9.1.5? Do you believe those changes were meant to wait that long, or else the game would collapse on itself?

[Lolites]

Also, this whole "players can't agree on a single thing" is true, but that's true in every scenario in every game that's ever existed.

could you please then mention a game that was constantly changed according to the feedback from the players? even though the feedback was multiple different, often mutualy exclusive things?

[Mardux]

Blizzards should take feedback and listen to what players want. Then give players what they actually need. They haven't been doing either for some time now.

The Blizzard developers are Homer and Uncle Herbert is the CEO/Shareholders in this video.

Because Blizzard wants the game to survive and giving players everything they think they need is the most surefire way to kill it off.

[jellmoo]

I'm not saying Blizzard makes decisions, but there's a reason why no company in existence implements fixes the way the community envisions them, and that's because the community doesn't understand game design. There's also a reason why people with experience from the community (Ion) get hired by Blizzard, and people without experience (the streamers) don't.

BFA was a clusterfuck because Blizzard DID listen to the community. There was a very specific problem where Heroic NH was tuned around having your artifact maxed out which was a massive grind even if you were no lifing the game. Players complained about that. All the good shit was locked behind the artifact grind and players complained about that. RNG legendaries were RNG so players complained about that. Players complained about TF without understanding how rare it would be to get a Mythic equivalent piece to titanforge from a lower raid. With BFA Blizzard made Azerite frontloaded to remove the grind aspect of it, they removed RNG legendaries which made the community less interested in running any content, they introduced restrictions on TF which also made people less interested in running any content aside from whatever the highest raid they could do at the time was. Listening to community feedback there made BFA boring as shit.

They listened to player feedback with loot is just loot too, because the feedback they got was "It was better in Classic / BC / WLK / etc" and when they released Classic people were excited for the loot. So they figured shit yeah lets make loot like that in retail. The problem is that they implemented that plus LESS loot at the same time which made things boring as fuck. Plus a weapon upgrade isn't as exciting as it was. If you're going to copy a more popular loot system you have to copy everything about that loot system. They took the worst parts and left out the good parts. Anima and conduits are a totally Blizzard fuck up though. Maybe at that point it's just throwing ideas at the wall because the community has hated everything you've done for the past 17 years.

Blizzard needs new devs on the dev team with experience. The last thing they should ever do is listen to content creators.

You see, I gotta disagree here. At best Blizzard was providing lipservice to some player requests whilst completely ignoring the feedback they were getting in other regards. By and large it seems the crux of the problem is that Blizzard is absolutely determined to timegate things in order to dole out potential content as slowly as possible. I get the 'why' of it, but at the end of the day the feedback has been repeatedly that this just isn't fun and is extremely ALT unfriendly.

Part of this stems from their insistence on using some method of Borrowed Power, and making players work to build it. Which again, players have been vocal about not liking, but here we are three expansions in a row with the same thing under a different coat of paint.

Do they need to listen to every single thing players say? Of course not. Should players be driving the game systems design? Of course not. The expectation should be that Blizzard has a qualified team that is dedicated to creating fun and exciting systems.

The problem is that when players say "Hey guys, this isn't that fun" only for Blizzard to do the same thing again and yet again, it's an issue. While we shouldn't be driving game design, we should be letting them know what we like and don't like. And for them to continuously hammer us with systems that they have to know aren't well received just screams of hubris on their part.

[Lolites]

That's the thing, people complaining are actually coming up with the solutions. Apparently good ones, since Blizzard decides to implement them months after expansion was released.

here is the thing, players sugest 545341654155754124 changes, most of them shit, some good
blizzard takes couple of the good ones, and implement them and suddenly players are oh so briliant and always know better? sorry but no...

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Maw intro is unskippable, covenant energy pointlessly limits your options and changing cov is a real goddamn hassle until 9.1.5? Do you believe those changes were meant to wait that long, or else the game would collapse on itself?

jeez its so atypical to ease down and make catchups later into expansion, its not like its been done since burning crusade...
and would the game collapse without those changes? personaly, i dont have as much time as in previous years so i play casualy and those "problems" had no negative impact on my play...

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Blizzards should take feedback and listen to what players want. Then give players what they actually need.

well think about the situation:
player A thinks wow is too easy
player B thinks wow is too hard
so blizzard comes with solution - having both easy and difficult content ingame, so both get what they want
quite a good solution right, should make both of them happy ...in theory
in reality, both still complain about the same thing

problem is, giving players what they want is quite often imposible, and giving them what they need is quite often waved as not important, or even complained about...

[FelPlague]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

While this is pretty hilariously true, as people very often think their opinion is something everyone wants, and armchair "developers" are usually just trying to design what THEY want not what everyone wants. yeah.

it is very common for a person to come up with 1 good idea, so everyone says "hire them!" then you do so, and then all their other ideas are nothing close to what people want.
everyone has an opion, and while parts may match, it is rare their entire opinions will.

[exsanguinate]

Blizzard should never listen to streamers, because they are the very minority, despite their followers. They will always kneel before them.

Take a look on Asmongolds wish list for classic. Upper garbage.

https://youtu.be/AC4gVcPSgWY?t=1209

Some might agree with him, but this is just asking for shadowlands 2.0

[LedZeppelin]

Based on the responses in this thread, OP is 100% right and people are coping lmao

[Flade]

Take a look on Asmongolds wish list for classic. Upper garbage.

https://youtu.be/AC4gVcPSgWY?t=1209

Some might agree with him, but this is just asking for shadowlands 2.0

I was 99.9% sure he was trolling, but he's autistic so who knows, maybe he was serious afterall.

[exsanguinate]

I was 99.9% sure he was trolling, but he's autistic so who knows, maybe he was serious afterall.

I have no clue when to take him serious and when not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What I know is that Asmongold is mostly a "fictional character". I don't think this guy is stupid.

[Bigbazz]

IF asmongold made the game it would be an absolute mess where he'd get all the gear regardless of what the actual gear rules are and then say how him ninjaing loot is great for the community because reasons.

That's the meme of Asmongold and the character he plays, like him or not beyond the persona he has a lot of smart and well considered things coming out of his mouth when he's not entertaining. And in any case it was just an example, obviously Asmongold isn't a leader who can run a design team, the point is Blizzard ignores feedback and is too crippled by deliberation to act on anything, meaning they never fix issues fast enough to make a difference.

Asmongold like many others plays the game and can see first hand the issues, while Blizzards actions show they are disconnected from their own game (this is especially evident when you see how they handle Classic TBC right now compared to guys running private servers, who are more in touch with the playerbase and know far more about the actual game as players, thus actually create arguably a better experience (in particular the PvP balancing).

So yeah, I think Asmongold just making decisions would move the game forward more, in a hypothetical fantasy scenario.

[Trend]

BFA was a clusterfuck because Blizzard DID listen to the community.

I completely disagree. IMO azerite armor was both chronologically a harbinger of the wrong direction, it was also one of the worst systems they ever implemented. And everything that was shit about it was pointed out before beta ended or 8.1 released. And yet, that shitty awful system persisted throughout the expansion with only minor tweaks to make it slightly less awful.

The WoW dev teams occasionally errors on the side of listening to player feedback too much. But that is the exception, not the rule.

[Dch48]

Totally agree. Bellular, in particular, was a cancer on the game. Good riddance.

[Yarathir]

>BfA was shit because Blizzard listened to the community
Ah yes, players just couldn't stop talking about how much they wanted Azerite powers, and Azerite Essences and Corruptions which were totally RNG and imbalanced and then later "fixed" by putting them on an artificially restricting vendor.

[Glazey]

uuf... changing everythiong on a whim of players, even if it was possible (its not), would be terribe idea...
even if you just look around MMO-C, there are threads that wow is too hard and wow is too easy... how exactly would you listen to both of this opinions? not to mention both are at least in my opinion incorrect

Quoting the same post, with two different posts of your own. Yikers.

Interesting enough, you provided the answer in your own post. "you can offer criticism without solution, if you are precise with it". If someone says an aspect of the game is to hard, why are they saying it? If another is saying it is easy, why are they saying that? Is it the same thing they're talking about or is it a different aspect of the game. How much are they seeing similar feedback, how often is it brought up.

There are plenty of ways to differentiate what feedback is good, and which ones are not as good.

could you please then mention a game that was constantly changed according to the feedback from the players? even though the feedback was multiple different, often mutualy exclusive things?

Are you delusional enough to argue that feedback systems do not work in a genre/industry that has thrived off said feedback systems? You cannot be anywhere near serious with your arguments with extreme stances justifying why it doesn't work. MOBAs are adjusted all the time to player feedbacks, MMOs are adjusted with player feedback. BRs are adjusted with player feedback. Every single multiplayer game is adjusted to player feedback.

Name a single game that comes out without a shred of feedback attached to it.

[Orby]

Totally agree. Bellular, in particular, was a cancer on the game. Good riddance.

Good riddance? Good riddance for what, he hasn't gone anywhere... he's the only one left of those listed that still plays. Even though if I was as negative about the game as much as he is I would have unsubbed, oh wait I did unsub. lol.

[starstationprofm]

Why the fuck would any designer listen to the likes of Asmongold or Bellular? They have 0 game knowledge and/or experience.

Asmongold isn't even good at the game. He constantly gets carried by far better players.

[Sormine]

"you have to be a chef to critique food"

Rule Number 1 of arguments over WoW design: The argument will always degrade into food service analogies.