To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Osmeric]

its funny that i make a point of how its all clickbait farming then proving it and then you dismiss my opinion because it doesnt fit you.

That there is also ad hominem. It's blanket dismissal of someone because of motives. It's convenient for you, since you don't have to actually address the points he makes.

[NineSpine]

In politics, many successes are regarded poorly by the public, because the public way of thinking is always: What is best for ME? And what is best for YOU isn't always best for US.

Since the very beginning, there was no winning with Covenants. It never mattered how well they are balanced, how diverse can the choices be etc. etc., simply because for the big portion of vocal WoW community the whole idea of being forced to make a lasting choice that's not optimal for every kind of content is a big no-no. It has to be best for everything, or you have to have the option to change it on the fly. So even if at Blizzard they do regard it as a success, I'm not at all surprised they won't do it again anytime soon.

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Funny, ain't it? To think there are people who are ok with doing boring grind for a week instead of using that time for something actually entertaining and just waiting a week. Oh well.

I don't find doing content boring. I find waiting boring.

[niztheundead87]

Kinda agree:
We got Bellular who barely touches the game outside leveling and few runs in normal raiding - and represents around 900K subs. Even they have an idea of how WoW should be.

negativity sells more than being all green and roses.

[Osmeric]

do that in one day as a fresh max lvl on tbc

I think the attunement in BC was widely regarded, in retrospect, as a bad idea.

There have been games that tried to get back to a somewhat BC-like design. Rift and WildStar spring to mind. Rift's single-difficulty raids lost most players before Hammerknell, and WildStar's attunement process was notorious.

[Rageonit]

1)
the „real“ main problem of wow, is that it has no target audience. instead it has a such broad audience, that it is impossible for blizz to cater to everyone. i.e. lets say the audience is 10 different types of players. so, most of the time, changes are targeting towards 2-3/10 while 7-8/10 are pissed. regardless what changes. having no straight target audience leads always to the „compromise“ problem, where you can make noone really happy in the end. in short: Blizz slowly changed wow over years to get the money from everyone and now has an unhealthy and unhandling broad audience instead of a clear target audience.

It may appear unhealthy being here, because at mmoc, we are all sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office. Meanwhile, at their homes, plenty of causal players have fun with the casual part of the game, plenty of raiders enjoy current raid, plenty of PvPers do PvP. All it takes is accepting that not everything has to cater to you. Quite obviously, there are people in this world who can't accept this. That's what forums are made of.

[niztheundead87]

I think the attunement in BC was widely regarded, in retrospect, as a bad idea.

There have been games that tried to get back to a somewhat BC-like design. Rift and WildStar spring to mind. Rift's single-difficulty raids lost most players before Hammerknell, and WildStar's attunement process was notorious.

the one reason wildstar failed was because they overdid it with the difficulty and being all hardcore

[Rageonit]

I don't find doing content boring. I find waiting boring.

"Content" is a very generous word for some grinds this game had in the past. Thanks, I'll wait. Waiting has this huge benefit that you do it only once. Have fun repeating the grind on every character. Here's a friendly advice: read a book while waiting, it will make it a lot more bearable.

[Osmeric]

It may appear unhealthy being here, because at mmoc, we are all sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office. Meanwhile, at their homes, plenty of causal players have fun with the casual part of the game, plenty of raiders enjoy current raid, plenty of PvPers do PvP. All it takes is accepting that not everything has to cater to you. Quite obviously, there are people in this world who can't accept this. That's what forums are made of.

Well, there are also plenty of WoW players who feel WoW no longer caters to them. Probably in excess of 90% of them. One might not agree with these players, but even a person who is perfectly happy with the current state of the game should pause to consider why this percentage is so damned high. If one is determined to dismiss all these former players as haters, one should well ask what inspired that hate.

[Kageaki]

It's completely possible to dislike the cash shop in FF14 as well.

Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop? Where are the videos of these guys holding FFXIV to the same standard as they hold wow? Where are the videos of them spewing vitriol at it like they do to wow?? You ask why these streamers are so inflammatory and clickbaity, well the evidence is right there with the absence of videos where they criticize FFXIV en large. FFXIV is the community's favourite Child right now and wow is getting the hate bandwagon. Criticizing FFXIV would be stupid as it would not generate the same amount of traffic and revenue as clickbait outrage wow videos do. If anything it would turn against them and they know it

[HansLolo]

It may appear unhealthy being here, because at mmoc, we are all sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office. Meanwhile, at their homes, plenty of causal players have fun with the casual part of the game, plenty of raiders enjoy current raid, plenty of PvPers do PvP. All it takes is accepting that not everything has to cater to you. Quite obviously, there are people in this world who can't accept this. That's what forums are made of.

100% agreed.

People are here to discuss. I only think the Achievement subforum is where people can share thier ingame joy - the rest is biased towards the bad and good.

[Osmeric]

the one reason wildstar failed was because they overdid it with the difficulty and being all hardcore

While I don't disagree with that assessment, WildStar had a number of other serious problems that also turned people off (botting, loot design, not working well with AMD CPUs), so it's difficult to make the case completely ironclad. The game's decline was spectacularly rapid.

[niztheundead87]

Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop? Where are the videos of these guys holding FFXIV to the same standard as they hold wow? Where are the videos of them spewing vitriol at it like they do to wow?? You ask why these streamers are so inflammatory and clickbaity, well the evidence is right there with the absence of videos where they criticize FFXIV en large. FFXIV is the community's favourite Child right now and wow is getting the hate bandwagon. Criticizing FFXIV would be stupid as it would not generate the same amount of traffic and revenue as clickbait outrage wow videos do. If anything it would turn against them and they know it

you know the funny thing is the ffxiv shop is much bigger selling more things , the hell they even sell story skips

[HansLolo]

You are sooooo close. The question you are missing is "What changed that made it where the game had plenty for Bellular to do in the past?"

I asked that question - until recently, he officially announced his own game studio. The business boy in me said "such a douchebag move to steal players by bashing a product for last 2 years and having a career out of clickbait-infowar model".

[Rageonit]

Well, there are also plenty of WoW players who feel WoW no longer caters to them. Probably in excess of 90% of them. One might not agree with these players, but even a person who is perfectly happy with the current state of the game should pause to consider why this percentage is so damned high. If one is determined to dismiss all these former players as haters, one should well ask what inspired that hate.

Hater is a strong word; self-absorbed is probably more accurate.
This whole idea of wondering why someone else is not enjoying the game is beyond me. I don't think Blizzard is in any obligation to please you, me or anyone else. They make the game they want to make, some people still play it (my server cluster looks healthy, even tho it's marked as low population). Clearly, enough people still play it to make it profitable, so all is good in my fantasy land. When evening comes, I will, as usual, say a prayer for all the games that were supposedly better and are already dead.

[HansLolo]

Hater is a strong word; self-absorbed is probably more accurate.
This whole idea of wondering why someone else is not enjoying the game is beyond me. I don't think Blizzard is in any obligation to please you, me or anyone else. They make the game they want to make, some people still play it (my server cluster looks healthy, even tho it's marked as low population). Clearly, enough people still play it to make it profitable, so all is good in my fantasy land. When evening comes, I will, as usual, say a prayer for all the games that were supposedly better and are already dead.

This is how it goes:
Commitment over time = the product becomes you. Any "bad" direction is some form of direct insult on you. So you need to hate - how else can you express yourself.

This pattern is in any industry, politics, food, music, religion etc.

You can't just move on - you made your commitment and somebody took of your investments and you feel somewhat hurt. And now you want to see it burn it to the ground, as you don't have any power to change or influence.

[Kralljin]

its funny that i make a point of how its all clickbait farming then proving it and then you dismiss my opinion because it doesnt fit you.

So...we're back at this?

I'll just reiterate myself, if you want to criticize him for klickbaiting, go ahead, that is nothing where i have ever argued against.
I do however point out that he's talking about something that is relevant to raiding, which is the timegate during the 1st week.
It's just a different topic whether someone criticizes a content creator for klickbaiting or his content containing false / inaccurate information.

So even if at Blizzard they do regard it as a success, I'm not at all surprised they won't do it again anytime soon.

The point is however that the only way to combat this narrative would be to show that most people did in fact pick Covenants based more subjective reasons rather than purely numerical ones.

As i said, Ion didn't deflect the numbers Preach was referring to, he just said "Well, it was an experiment, it was a success but he probably won't do it again".

do that in one day as a fresh max lvl on tbc

...this whole chart is unnecessarily bloated with stuff like Doom lord Kazzak (which you don't need for any attunements), the Arcatraz key (which is completely optional), Shadowlabs key (which is also optional), Shattered Hells key (again, optional), contains inacurrate information (you don't need Keepers of Time revered for MH) or not even mentioning that you can start working on attunements before hitting cap.

It also completely ignores that most activities can be lined with gearing your character, if you hit cap, you should be doing Normal Mode dungeons...where you get rep, then you can do Heroic dungeons for gear+Badges, then you should be doing entry raids for, guess what, gear.

And that's not even mentioning that this chart represents the attunement of the enterity of TBC, you know, which is an entire expansion.
This is just another bad faith argument, no regularly played character has to complete the entire attunement process of TBC within a single day.

Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop?

Bellular has conceded quite a few times that the cash shop in FF14 is worse than the one in WoW.
What however adds fuels to the fire in case of WoW is that apathy among the WoW community is a lot higher than in the FF14, which naturally puts a much bigger focus on any new addition to the store.

To quote the man himself: "they're solving design problems with business solutions".

Preach never made any videos about the store in recent years, so i don't see the point of mentioning him at all.

As for Asmongold, he himself already said that he doesn't like the FF14 store either, it's just that he's not nearly as invested in FF14 than he is in WoW.
It would also be a bit weird to complain about something that has existed in the game before you even started playing it, at least Asmongold played WoW before the store existed.

[Hablion]

Ok so where are the videos of preach, asmongold and bellular criticizing the FFXIV shop? Where are the videos of these guys holding FFXIV to the same standard as they hold wow? Where are the videos of them spewing vitriol at it like they do to wow?? You ask why these streamers are so inflammatory and clickbaity, well the evidence is right there with the absence of videos where they criticize FFXIV en large. FFXIV is the community's favourite Child right now and wow is getting the hate bandwagon. Criticizing FFXIV would be stupid as it would not generate the same amount of traffic and revenue as clickbait outrage wow videos do. If anything it would turn against them and they know it

Asmongold Says what he thinks of it here.

https://youtu.be/FQAeK11sKT8?t=226

[Rageonit]

This is how it goes:
Commitment over time = the product becomes you. Any "bad" direction is some form of direct insult on you. So you need to hate - how else can you express yourself.
This pattern is in any industry, politics, food, music, religion etc.
You can't just move on - you made your commitment and somebody took of your investments and you feel somewhat hurt. And now you want to see it burn it to the ground, as you don't have any power to change or influence.

Yes, sadly it's very true. I pity the people who have to invest their feelings into products of pop culture. That energy could be spent better elsewhere.

[Sariengrey]

The biggest irony of these streamers? ...they will all be back
100%

[HansLolo]

The biggest irony of these streamers? ...they will all be back
100%

I truely believe so.