Tyrande and Sylvanas and why i hate how they are portrayed.

[VladlTutushkin]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.



Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.


And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before i often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.


Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.


Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i dont think its true…


And now i am done writing, sorry for my tangent. I just felt strangle conflicted, as if i shouldnt write it down like that and make myself sound “unmanly” but i am moved to do so anyway because of how weird and fucked up those two characters were portrayed!


Thread warning:

Keep things specific to wow lore. We can discuss the writing of female characters, but not if it turns into winge about irl agendas.

[Combatbutler]

snip!

It is ultimately just blizz writing mentally challenged characters, I wouldn't look for deeper meaning in their representation.

[VladlTutushkin]

It is ultimately just blizz writing mentally challenged characters, I wouldn't look for deeper meaning in their representation.

Mentally challenged writers writing mentally challenged characters.

[Soon-TM]

Blizzard has always written their (prominent) female characters as either unstable psychos or Mary Sue's, sometimes both in a short space of time. It really reads as if "any empowered woman must be kept under a male's oversight or they will go balls to the wall nuts".

[Powerogue]

I really think you're misinterpreting and reading a lot more into this than what's actually shown in-game. Headcanons looking into every possible detail to hate are common here.

Blizzard favors dramatic storytelling, so people acting on emotion is an absolute staple, whether you're referring to male or female characters. The villains have to make mistakes so the heroes can win, characters get moments of reflection and regret. It's what makes the story interesting, and is not restricted to female characters. To show the first examples that come to mind:







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Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.

Maybe there's some points there, but those are deliberately part of her character arc. Convinced the life/afterlife system was the thing robbing her of agency and intent on destroying it, she was fighting against us. She made a mistake, as baddies have to do for us to be capable of stopping them. Now we're left to find out if we're supposed to forgive her despite her doing absolutely nothing to earn it, or if she'll face justice for her crimes against both factions. How that plays out will impact how I feel about Tyrande's arc.

[Aresk]

Tyrande's recent portrayal has been called out that it wasn't really her. The Night Warrior ritual amplified her rage and let it seize her, and for that reason, she's given into the emotion. There's nothing suggesting that her sex has anything to do with it; Thiernax is male and had a similar experience where he was unable to control the power. While that somewhat excuses recent portrayal, Tyrande has always been shown to be the "shoot first, ask questions never" type of character. In WC3, she openly attacks the Alliance for having any affiliation with the Horde, even when she witnesses the Alliance attacking the undead that serve the Legion, with Malfurion being the one to temper her aggression.

I can't really comment too much on Sylvanas' portrayal because it's been pretty inconsistent from Cata to the end of Sanctum of Domination. However, I disagree with the characterization that she is nothing without the Jailer, as she accomplished her feats in WC3:TFT - overthrowing the Scourge and conquering Lordaeron - without the Jailer channeling power to her; while you could point to Varimathras' involvement as an aid, she still nearly managed to kill Arthas before any of the dreadlords backed her (and would have succeeded if not for the Jailer's lap dog Kel'thuzad stepping in to save him).

[shadowmatrix]

Your reading far too much into common plot points.

Tyrande is the usual revenge just leads to more death plot.
Sylvanas is the fear of death plot.

To me it has nothing to do with them being women.

[VladlTutushkin]

I really think you're misinterpreting and reading a lot more into this than what's actually shown in-game. Headcanons looking into every possible detail to hate are common here.

Blizzard favors dramatic storytelling, so people acting on emotion is an absolute staple, whether you're referring to male or female characters. The villains have to make mistakes so the heroes can win, characters get moments of reflection and regret. It's what makes the story interesting, and is not restricted to female characters. To show the first examples that come to mind:







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Maybe there's some points there, but those are deliberately part of her character arc. Convinced the life/afterlife system was the thing robbing her of agency and intent on destroying it, she was fighting against us. She made a mistake, as baddies have to do for us to be capable of stopping them. Now we're left to find out if we're supposed to forgive her despite her doing absolutely nothing to earn it, or if she'll face justice for her crimes against both factions. How that plays out will impact how I feel about Tyrande's arc.

Tyrande will forgive her, or at least “forgive” her as if just allow her to leave unharmed and basically just say something vaguely unpleasant.

Also Garrosh actually different from both of them!

Notice how he made HIS OWN choices. And paid for them. Even his last choice - to never submit to the Jailer’s minion was HIS choice. He chose annihilation and never repented or changed his mind.

So he made his own conscious decisions unlike Sylvanas and he went with them to the end unlike Tyrande.

[VinceVega]

I am sorry but this just sounds like you WANT to see problems regarding female characters in wow.

All of them (male/female) are rather.... edgy, melodramatic, prone to outbursts and frankly incredibly stupid.

Tyrande isn't forced to do anything. It was her choice. Which was the whole point no? She broke because she lost nearly everyone of her people. And she got herself out of it. Isn't that more a showing of strenght? Sylvannas is not a psychopath... and that is.. bad for depiction of woman?
Isn't it rather that women in wow cannot do wrong... like ever. They are always justifed in someway or have an excuse.

Most deranged evil characters in wow are male. Garrosh was prone to fits of anger and highly unstable. Illidan and Kaelthas are megalomaniacs. Arthas is basically the weakest of all of them because of his insecurities which let to... well everything.
All of them fail left and right.

Every character in wow is stupid and volatile. Not ONE is really really good written compared to some other games. Bit like pulp. I like that tbh. Not everything needs to be highly realistic because wow and all the characters would be emotionally horribly scarred. End of the world every 2 years. World war basically since the orcs cam to azeroth. There cannot be annyone alive between the ages 13 and 80...

[VladlTutushkin]

I am sorry but this just sounds like you WANT to see problems regarding female characters in wow.

All of them (male/female) are rather.... edgy, melodramatic, prone to outbursts and frankly incredibly stupid.

Tyrande isn't forced to do anything. It was her choice. Which was the whole point no? She broke because she lost nearly everyone of her people. And she got herself out of it. Isn't that more a showing of strenght? Sylvannas is not a psychopath... and that is.. bad for depiction of woman?
Isn't it rather that women in wow cannot do wrong... like ever. They are always justifed in someway or have an excuse.

Most deranged evil characters in wow are male. Garrosh was prone to fits of anger and highly unstable. Illidan and Kaelthas are megalomaniacs. Arthas is basically the weakest of all of them because of his insecurities which let to... well everything.
All of them fail left and right.

Every character in wow is stupid and volatile. Not ONE is really really good written compared to some other games. Bit like pulp. I like that tbh. Not everything needs to be highly realistic because wow and all the characters would be emotionally horribly scarred. End of the world every 2 years. World war basically since the orcs cam to azeroth. There cannot be annyone alive between the ages 13 and 80...

Arguably, if Tyrande chose to die but kill Sylvanas too or just refused Elune’s “renewal” it would have being more heroic then accepting the shit they offered her.

[VinceVega]

Arguably, if Tyrande chose to die but kill Sylvanas too or just refused Elune’s “renewal” it would have being more heroic then accepting the shit they offered her.

But would that be incredibly unstable again? Killing someone for revenge and killing yourself abandoning your people and duties just cause? That would be very thing you said they shouldn't do.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Well, not every women. Look at Jaina. She was able to deal with her emotions and now she evolved into a great character. Also there are few men who are completely out of control.

[VladlTutushkin]

But would that be incredibly unstable again? Killing someone for revenge and killing yourself abandoning your people and duties just cause? That would be very thing you said they shouldn't do.

Not at all. Its not "abandoning" her people because she has her daughter and her husband to lead them even if she dies. Plus night elves are hardly helpless children who need their "mother hen" to keep them alive.

It would have being a heroic sacrifice in the name of avenging her people, not a petty revenge but a martyr's fate.

[Powerogue]

So he made his own conscious decisions unlike Sylvanas and he went with them to the end unlike Tyrande.

I was more pointing out how his decisions could hardly be called "rational" and "mentally stable". He was acting heavily on emotion, pride most centrally. Even in this mak'gora he's not so much fighting to win so much as furiously taking out his confused emotions on Thrall.

One of his best scenes, honestly.

[geco]

Tyrande isn't forced to do anything. It was her choice. Which was the whole point no? She broke because she lost nearly everyone of her people. And she got herself out of it. Isn't that more a showing of strenght? Sylvannas is not a psychopath... and that is.. bad for depiction of woman?
Isn't it rather that women in wow cannot do wrong... like ever. They are always justifed in someway or have an excuse.

It's pretty clear that Tyrande was forced to choose the renovation. She had already said 3 times that she chose revenge. In one even the goddess took away the powers before you could make your choice.

It's like you have two options. If you choose A, I'll hit you with a stick in my hand and ask you again.
How good after 4 attempts you chose B. "It's your choice."


But on the subject Blizzard can't write about Justice and then you have some writers like Kanack who clearly can't write Women.
So in the time of Tasting and the Kaldorei Stories where Maiev, Shandris and Tyrande had to shine and have stories that put it on par with Trall and Malfurion in plot. Kanack decides to write about Jarold and an Orc. He turned Shandris and Tyrande into that trophy and did everything he could to make us hate Maiev.

And today's writers are not going to write you a good story.

Tyrande is the usual revenge just leads to more death plot.

The problem is that Tyrande's "Revenge" has saved lives and fixed conflicts that are literally older than WoW itself.

Look at how Cordana ended and how Sira ended.

But would that be incredibly unstable again? Killing someone for revenge and killing yourself abandoning your people and duties just cause? That would be very thing you said they shouldn't do.

I was going to seal a Peace Treaty that makes sense. His people were going to be able to say "justice was done" (Although it was only part of it).
Now she is abandoning the People of him. Why? If Sylvanas doesn't die ... very likely thing. His people are going to have their thirst for revenge and the target is going to be the Horde.

She was going to let herself be consumed by revenge but in return her people were not. She was putting her chest to bullets.

[shadowmatrix]

The problem is that Tyrande's "Revenge" has saved lives and fixed conflicts that are literally older than WoW itself.

Look at how Cordana ended and how Sira ended.

It isn't about what revenge fixes, the issue always turns into getting the person to stop once they get started.

[Super Dickmann]

The side lesson of BFA being that reigning women always result in death and destruction because they're too emotional to make decisions and can only succeed if listening to a blonde, blue-eyed hereditary monarch is very powerful.

Tyrande did nothing wrong besides not go far enough. She was the most moderate 'consumed by vengeance' character out there. In fact, she was one of the most moderate versions of herself compared to WC3 and even arguably War Crimes where she's willing to throw even favorite Alliance carpet Baine under the bus and works to prove Horde collective guilt, which she never does as Night Warrior.

[VladlTutushkin]

The side lesson of BFA being that reigning women always result in death and destruction because they're too emotional to make decisions and can only succeed if listening to a blonde, blue-eyed hereditary monarch is very powerful.

Tyrande did nothing wrong besides not go far enough. She was the most moderate 'consumed by vengeance' character out there. In fact, she was one of the most moderate versions of herself compared to WC3 and even arguably War Crimes where she's willing to throw even favorite Alliance carpet Baine under the bus and works to prove Horde collective guilt, which she never does as Night Warrior.

All that. Also she pretty much offered Horde a full forgiveness for the price of a head of Sylvanas, who left the Horde before that. Its a garage sale levels of discount.

And even that was deemed as "too far" by the devs.

[Powerogue]

The side lesson of BFA being that reigning women always result in death and destruction because they're too emotional to make decisions and can only succeed if listening to a blonde, blue-eyed hereditary monarch is very powerful.

Did we play the same expansion? Jaina? Jaina's mom? Talanji?

I can only think you'd be referring to Sylvanas but that has more to do with her being an evil banshee bent on destroying the cycle of life and death than being a woman.

Tyrande maybe? She's been "fight first, ask questions later" since her introduction in WC3. And, again, far from the only character to be that way.


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It's pretty clear that Tyrande was forced to choose the renovation

Elune: Tyrande invoked me, it is her choice whether to pursue vengeance or renewal.
Fans, somehow: Tyrande didn't have a choice.

I mean, having the incarnation of your goddess, complete with all their emotions and sorrow in you, and seeing the dead night warriors who came before you there to save you from following their paths of reckless destruction, might have influenced the decision.

As a lifelong night elf main I can deal with that, it's the fact that Thrall promised Sylvanas's head, as proof that "the Horde has changed" are more than just empty words. Soul or no soul, Sylvanas should not be redeemed, at best post-posthumously in a dark cell in Revendreth.

[Super Dickmann]

Did we play the same expansion? Jaina? Jaina's mom? Talanji?

I can only think you'd be referring to Sylvanas but that has more to do with her being an evil banshee bent on destroying the cycle of life and death than being a woman.

Tyrande maybe? She's been "fight first, ask questions later" since her introduction in WC3. And, again, far from the only character to be that way.

Sylvanas' revelation this expansion comes from the empathy she feels for Anduin despite their miniscule prior dynamic. Jaina is cast as an irrational woman for being pissed about her city being nuked during Mists, compared to Varian.

But the main one is Tyrande, who despite having her race steamrolled expansion after expansion and having the exact same goal of toppling Sylvanas as everyone else is cast as being irrational. This is more moderate than either her War Crimes or WC3 version, who was entirely fine with attacking the orcs (and the humans). Tyrande, and indeed the Alliance as a whole, have their grievances limited to Sylvanas for the purposes of absolving the cancerous tumor that is noblesavagery from any responsibility, and yet despite her views being identical to everyone else's, Tyrande is treated as being uniquely unreasonable, a trait not shared with anyone else.

Talanji needs to learn from Memeboi how to love her fellow man, but I don't count her because she doesn't give up on her completely correct grievances by the end of Shadows Rising.