Tyrande and Sylvanas and why i hate how they are portrayed.

[Sondrelk]

Anduin has been a pestilent writer's mouthpiece since at latest Mists. What's different now as compared to especially BFA is that he's actually suffered some kind of personal cost for this. He has some kind of arc in the story that hasn't been done with his character prior. The same can't be said for Jaina, Thrall, Baine, Calia etc. who are not only also writer's mouthpieces for the exact same shit, but are also narratively hollow as they have no arc in the story. They could be cut and replaced with a particularly large gun to kill baddies and zero of the goings on would change nor would they be any poorer for it as characters.

His sixth sense regarding Sylvanas's character route and such powerful lines as 'Wow Arthas would do this' and 'Wow, i thought you were good, but you were actually bad' are of course bad, but not any more than it was when he did the same shit verbatim regarding Garrosh in War Crimes. Anduin has been the most meta character of all and the ultimate conduit for the writers for his entire time in the setting starting even in Cataclysm regarding Baine, where he inherited the role from Thrall/peacenik Jaina. He's simply more tolerable because there's something going on with his character where everyone else is either static - like everyone in the Azeroth cast, episodic - like the Shadowlands guys, or Sylvanas - the less said about that plot the better. I am more interested in whether Blizzard commit to him being at least mildly sad for being a slave of Satan than I am in the fate of anyone else we brought with us. Though that says more about them than Anduin, after sacrificing every other character and aspect of the setting to position him as a comic book/anime protagonist, he's also the only one who can progress in some way.

Anduin is consistently annoying to watch because he has a perfect plotline going in theory, it's just that the writing doesnt support it at all.
He desperately wants peace, love and to believe the best of everyone, but instead of converting people he more often than not has it backfire.

It was far worse in BfA when his mistakes were ignored in favor of meaningless "victories" seemingly givne to him just to act like he provided anything of value. In SL meanwhile his character is at least consistent in the sense that the story and portrayal isnt inherently at odds. We know he has a tendency to believe the best, even when given proof of the opposite, and his interractions with Sylvanas certainly fits that portrayal, as well as being generally more intriguing to watch on account of his increased levels of sass.

Maybe one day we can hope that Anduin gets to be his ideal version. An eternal optimist striving for goodness against all odds, with a sassy streak to boot.

[Vinictus]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.



Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.


And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before i often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.


Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.


Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i dont think its true…


And now i am done writing, sorry for my tangent. I just felt strangle conflicted, as if i shouldnt write it down like that and make myself sound “unmanly” but i am moved to do so anyway because of how weird and fucked up those two characters were portrayed!


Thread warning:

Keep things specific to wow lore. We can discuss the writing of female characters, but not if it turns into winge about irl agendas.

In game elves =/= real life humans - not comparable.

[Al Gorefiend]

Man shocked after deep analysis of fantasy female waifu elves not to his expectations of females.

[Nerovar]

Anduin is consistently annoying to watch because he has a perfect plotline going in theory, it's just that the writing doesnt support it at all.
He desperately wants peace, love and to believe the best of everyone, but instead of converting people he more often than not has it backfire.

It was far worse in BfA when his mistakes were ignored in favor of meaningless "victories" seemingly givne to him just to act like he provided anything of value. In SL meanwhile his character is at least consistent in the sense that the story and portrayal isnt inherently at odds. We know he has a tendency to believe the best, even when given proof of the opposite, and his interractions with Sylvanas certainly fits that portrayal, as well as being generally more intriguing to watch on account of his increased levels of sass.

Maybe one day we can hope that Anduin gets to be his ideal version. An eternal optimist striving for goodness against all odds, with a sassy streak to boot.

Why would you even want Anduin to be his "ideal vision"? It's just WC3 Jaina and we already have Jaina at home. These kind of characters are only interesting when they have something to rebel against - they don't really make sense when they run the place and nothing changes.

I would have loved to see the opposite direction. One where Anduin is forced to come to terms with how his world works and the consequences of his peacemongering and the resulting Alliance defeats finally catch up with him. One where he realizes that a lot of the blood shed in the Fourth War is actually on his hands. I'd love to see a version of events where for once his cause isn't unambiguously good and his self-righteousness and grandstanding are shown as unsustainable luxuries. I want to see an Anduin that strikes out in anger because something actually gets under his skin.

[geco]

I just gave you a source where this has happened with a female character in this franchise. The whole reason she was unstable in my mind is innocent bystanders were involved. Including almost killing one of her closest allies. She did go to war tho. Women are able to go to war and not deemed as hysterical. I am not sure where you are getting this notion from. It has been done several times in the past. Tyrande was probably deemed "hysterical" because she wasn't listening to her allies. No matter how much they plead with her. Including her "daughter." This term can be used for males too and it is called going rogue. Which makes them a liability ultimately.

I remind you that Tyrande in W3 would kill his allies if they did not obey her.
And Tyrande Night Warrior is willing to listen to Shandris and Maiev.

Lieterally in SL Tyrande trusts the Horde player because Shandris tells him.

Why would you even want Anduin to be his "ideal vision"? It's just WC3 Jaina and we already have Jaina at home. These kind of characters are only interesting when they have something to rebel against - they don't really make sense when they run the place and nothing changes.

+1 Anduin will always be the misspelled version of Jaina.
PS: How weird that they need to go back to Jaina man to tell the story right?

[Nerovar]

I remind you that Tyrande in W3 would kill his allies if they did not obey her.
And Tyrande Night Warrior is willing to listen to Shandris and Maiev.

Lieterally in SL Tyrande trusts the Horde player because Shandris tells him.

Maiev who btw. tried to kill her husband a few years ago and still hasn't faced any consequences for murdering many of the Shen'dralar who joined Darnassus.

[Sondrelk]

Why would you even want Anduin to be his "ideal vision"? It's just WC3 Jaina and we already have Jaina at home. These kind of characters are only interesting when they have something to rebel against - they don't really make sense when they run the place and nothing changes.

I would have loved to see the opposite direction. One where Anduin is forced to come to terms with how his world works and the consequences of his peacemongering and the resulting Alliance defeats finally catch up with him. One where he realizes that a lot of the blood shed in the Fourth War is actually on his hands. I'd love to see a version of events where for once his cause isn't unambiguously good and his self-righteousness and grandstanding are shown as unsustainable luxuries. I want to see an Anduin that strikes out in anger because something actually gets under his skin.

His ideal version is one where his actions have consequences, but he goes through with them because it is the right thing, not just because he is pure good and cannot do bad.
In BfA the game never seemed to actually state that Anduin tried to be the better man because that is just who he is, rather it seemed like he was portrayed that way because he had to be pure good to oppose Sylvanas' pure evil.

Besides, Jaina isnt nearly as good at being sassy. Anduins conversations with Sylvanas were quite enjoyable in this expansion whenever Sylvanas tried to have her grand speech and Anduin was having none of it. We need more of that Anduin, not "winning the costly war decisively would upset the Horde"

[Sableye]

So I will say this is partially a problem of the way the covanents have gated chunks of story but through the Night Fae storyline, Tyrande had to let go of Elune's power or she was going to have her soul burn up and her death would have been a bigger blow to the night elves than the world tree burning down plus a lot of her former subjects are in ardenweld now awaiting rebirth and don't want to see her soul destroyed by her vengence.

Was the story ham fisted? absolutely, but the night fae portion was actually kind of interesting. I think they wrapped it up too quickly with the 9.1 opening scenario

Sylvannis? really not sure why they did what they did or what they've been thinking but her motivations have been rewritten every single expansion and even changing during expansions since in BFA she started on the side of the void lords and suddenly jumped bosses to the jailer

[Powerogue]

want to see an Anduin that strikes out in anger because something actually gets under his skin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...deserved_that/

I'd argue basically every exchange between him and Sylvanas this expansion counts too.

[Super Dickmann]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...deserved_that/

I'd argue basically every exchange between him and Sylvanas this expansion counts too.

Old Gods made him do it. Anduin would never be angry about the guy who lead to a major war that consequently got his dad killed or about his incompetent advisors. He's too pure for our sinful world.

I'll give you Sylvanas though, that was much appreciated at times and tiresome at others ('lol, you're like arthas', 'lol i thought you believed in free will' were bad).

@Sondrelk

Nerovar already said what I was going to say, but I think we generally agree. The main problem with Anduin is that he doesn't suffer consequences and he's always right. He's still always right, but he did actually personally bear the cost of his actions, however small that is, and I find his interactions with Sylvanas fine for what they are. Definitely the most entertaining the character has been since Legion.

[Nerovar]

His ideal version is one where his actions have consequences, but he goes through with them because it is the right thing, not just because he is pure good and cannot do bad.
In BfA the game never seemed to actually state that Anduin tried to be the better man because that is just who he is, rather it seemed like he was portrayed that way because he had to be pure good to oppose Sylvanas' pure evil.

Besides, Jaina isnt nearly as good at being sassy. Anduins conversations with Sylvanas were quite enjoyable in this expansion whenever Sylvanas tried to have her grand speech and Anduin was having none of it. We need more of that Anduin, not "winning the costly war decisively would upset the Horde"

There's a problem with your view of Anduin's character. It kinda worked back in MoP when he was more or less his own man and he could make his own decisions and suffer the consequences because he was only really playing with his own life. But who exactly is now suffering the consequences when he makes a decision like that as the King of Stormwind/High King of the Alliance?

Does he suffer the consequences of not e.g. disarming the Horde when another conflict breaks out? Does he suffer the consequences of not demanding reparations from the Horde? Hardly. He's not an individual making moral choices anymore but an absolute monarch controlling the fate of nations yet his act hasn't really changed and the narrative keeps making excuses by not addressing this while the world bends around the gravitational pull of his complete goodness.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...deserved_that/

I'd argue basically every exchange between him and Sylvanas this expansion counts too.

It's a step in the right direction but what exactly are the consequences? It's just an impotent display of anger. Nothing really happens as a result.

[Powerogue]

It's a step in the right direction but what exactly are the consequences? It's just an impotent display of anger. Nothing really happens as a result.

People have been babbling "BUT HE NEEDS CONSEQUENCES" for expansion after expansion of consequences. He's literally a death knight now, as hopeless as I've ever seen him, less concerned about coming back from it than that last flicker of hope that people will at least remember him for who he was, not what Sylvanas, who he had made the mistakes of trusting and trying to reform, made him.

That's some goddamn consequences.

[geco]

Maiev who btw. tried to kill her husband a few years ago and still hasn't faced any consequences for murdering many of the Shen'dralar who joined Darnassus.

But you know Tyrande is "BLIND WITH VENGEANCE" but she can forgive the girl who literally said she plans to kill her and her husband and tried twice.

[Nerovar]

People have been babbling "BUT HE NEEDS CONSEQUENCES" for expansion after expansion of consequences. He's literally a death knight now, as hopeless as I've ever seen him, less concerned about coming back from it than that last flicker of hope that people will at least remember him for who he was, not what Sylvanas, who he had made the mistakes of trusting and trying to reform, made him.

That's some goddamn consequences.

He's not really death knight since he's... you know, not dead and all that. His model was called "domination knight" somewhere (which is the off-brand version, I guess). Also him getting caught and turned into a puppet isn't really a consequence of his own actions. It's not a consequence of trusting Sylvanas either. He basically had zero agency in the whole affair.

The only thing you could argue is that he was only selected based on his immutable goodness giving the Jailer easy access to the Kyrian stronghold (because those guys are all clinically braindead). But even then none of this really has anything to do with Anduin's choices or actions therefor it can hardly be considered a "consequence".

Edit: also I was referring to the lack of consequences in regards to him punching Wrathion

[catalystical]

He's not really death knight since he's... you know, not dead and all that. His model was called "domination knight" somewhere (which is the off-brand version, I guess). Also him getting caught and turned into a puppet isn't really a consequence of his own actions. It's not a consequence of trusting Sylvanas either. He basically had zero agency in the whole affair.

The only thing you could argue is that he was only selected based on his immutable goodness giving the Jailer easy access to the Kyrian stronghold (because those guys are all clinically braindead). But even then none of this really has anything to do with Anduin's choices or actions therefor it can hardly be considered a "consequence".

Edit: also I was referring to the lack of consequences in regards to him punching Wrathion

Technicality. You don't need to die to be a death knight. Arthas didn't die.

[Nerovar]

Technicality. You don't need to die to be a death knight. Arthas didn't die. Neither did Gorefiend.

Gorefiend most certainly died when his soul got sucked out of his then dead body and was transferred into the corpse of a human knight.

Gul'dan took the corpses of the fallen Knights of Stormwind, and intended to imbue the rotting corpses with the souls of the Shadow Council. Nothing worked until he decided to sacrifice the necrolytes and cut out their hearts. He transmuted these hearts into powerful jewels, which were then affixed into truncheons. Upon making this stride, Gul'dan informed Doomhammer of his success. Placing the first truncheon into the hand of one of the corpses, the warlock and the Warchief watched as the energies of the necrolyte's heart that powered the weapon coursed through the corpse, until its eyes finally opened. Teron'gor had returned, now known as Teron Gorefiend.

Arthas' death is implicitly described in Rise of the Lich King when he takes up Frostmourne and the blade claims his soul. He's effectively undead after that.

Cold shot through him, shivering up his arms, spreading over his body and into his heart. It was painful for a moment and he knew a hint of alarm, and then suddenly it was all right. It was all all right; Frostmourne was his and he was its, and its voice was speaking, whispering, caressing inside his mind as if it had always been there.

At one point, looking for his next enemy, he caught sight of Falric staring at him. There was awe on the familiar face, but also shock and—horror? Only at the carnage he was wreaking, surely.

The snowstorm was becoming worse. He realized with dawning surprise that he was not at all cold.

Moved by the image, he caught one of the red petals in a gloved hand. He thumbed it thoughtfully, and then frowned as a stain appeared. It grew before his eyes, desiccating and destroying the petal, until it was more brown than red in his palm.

He lifted a hand and drew back the hood from his face, watching for his father’s reaction. Terenas’s eyes widened as he took in the change that had come over his only son. Arthas’s hair, once golden as the wheat that had given sustenance to his people, was now bone- white. He knew his face was pale as well, as if the blood had been drained from it.

He would leave that to his captains, Falric and Marwyn, as bone- white as he and twice as merciless.

With Anduin we see him revert to his original appearance (no glowy eyes) after he stabs Kyrestia which isn't something you see with undead since their glowing eyes are a feature of the magic that keeps them "alive".

[loras]

The absolutely best, like, miraculously best scenario i can see is that Elune will regrow Teldrassil. So horde could joke how they will burn this one down too if they please.

Nothing else is going to happen. Thats is IF Teldrassil is regrown at all. Basically the whole questline was about giving up, going home and starting to tend to your burned, empty, trampled gardens again. Accepting the fate in the "zen" kinda fashion (which misrepresents buddhism and zen btw) and just accepting that now there are FAR fewer of your people, you have almost no land and you basically fucked... but you all peaceful and "harmonious" and what not and you will "rebuild".

Of course "rebuilding" just means "rebuilding insofar as its not inconvenient for your enemy".

She done got Gandhied basically.

I had the idea that, as god of life, she's literally about to mass resurrect all dead night elves save the ones that rejected her in joining the forsaken.
Might even provide a little buff and restore their immortality while she's at it, just as a way to say "sorry for the genocide".

[VladlTutushkin]

I had the idea that, as god of life, she's literally about to mass resurrect all dead night elves save the ones that rejected her in joining the forsaken.
Might even provide a little buff and restore their immortality while she's at it, just as a way to say "sorry for the genocide".

Well that i cant see happening at all. Not even in my most bright and optimistic scenarios.

[loras]

Well that i cant see happening at all. Not even in my most bright and optimistic scenarios.

Odd, it seems so obvious to me, a guilty god of life who has direct ties to a god of death, thus with all the will, position and power necessary to just fix her mistake.
Perhaps i am once again overestimating them, but it is what made it made sense to me.

As i said before: If it does not happen like this, then i agree with you entirely.

[VladlTutushkin]

Odd, it seems so obvious to me, a guilty god of life who has direct ties to a god of death, thus with all the will, position and power necessary to just fix her mistake.
Perhaps i am once again overestimating them, but it is what made it made sense to me.

As i said before: If it does not happen like this, then i agree with you entirely.

I really DONT want to sound like i know better, but from the evidence and previous events i can say with decent amount of certainty that 1) There will be no resurrection. 2) IF there is SOME sort of resurrection then they will be reborn as animals or something. Or become "soul content" for next Teldrassil, giving it life or what not. You know, "monkey paw" but in a more of a "divine lesson" way.

So basically no resurrection, not even close.

Its sad as hell but Tyrande was pretty much defanged, declawed and sent back home (while likely forgiving Sylvanas too) for nothing more then "My bad!" from Elune and fixing Ardenweald.

Blizz see saving Ardenweald as "big payback" for night elves. They dont consider living night elves worthy of any divine gift.