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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And when they got on their little rescue ship, and all their needs were met by someone else... they became useless.
    ...that someone else was literally "themselves". They created a technological "dystopia" to care for their every need. There was no under-class of workers slaving away in the lower decks for them to take from.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    ...that someone else was literally "themselves". They created a technological "dystopia" to care for their every need. There was no under-class of workers slaving away in the lower decks for them to take from.
    Yep, the robots were their 'slaves." The issue is that they were no longer obligated to provide, so they got complacent.

    If you take care of everyone, no matter how many times they screw up, then you remove the incentive to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yep, the robots were their 'slaves." The issue is that they were no longer obligated to provide, so they got complacent.

    If you take care of everyone, no matter how many times they screw up, then you remove the incentive to work.
    The incentive is a higher quality of life than the bare minimum.

  4. #104
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That question has been answered. Just because you don't like the answer... not my problem.

    Society can only handle so many freeloaders and outliers. At some point, the people doing the work, and producing, will simply tell those people to fuck off, and cut them off.
    1> Why? I asked you to explain where you got this idea.
    1b> Nobody suggested a totality of "freeloaders and outliers", so you're attacking a straw man anyway.
    2> Expecting misanthropy like yours to have the political heft to enact misanthropic policies to deliberately and intentionally foster human suffering is . . . a position, sure. But it's not an argument. It's just a "you'll see, you'll all see!" Machiavellian cackle.

    It wasn't consumerism, it was being able to have all their wants and needs provided for them, by someone else... with no effort from them at all.
    You really should watch the movie sometime. You clearly haven't.

    The reason the Earth was trashed was consumerism. What keeps them complacent on the ship is consumerism. And, yes, a slave population doing all the "real" work behind the scenes, another factor you conveniently overlook.

    It was their recognition that they could achieve something more that got them to unite as a collective, along with those who'd been enslaved, that got them to turn back to Earth and start to rebuild. It wasn't "rugged individualism", or something.

    Imagine missing the point of a children's movie so hard that you demonstrate you have less empathy than the literal trash compactor robot in the film.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    ...that someone else was literally "themselves". They created a technological "dystopia" to care for their every need. There was no under-class of workers slaving away in the lower decks for them to take from.
    I mean, there was. In this story, the robots are all individuals, have emotions and internal lives, they're "people" even if not biological. They literally take us through those "lower decks", and they're pretty visually distinct from the passenger areas. They kind of skip over all that in the name of a simpler message, but it's there.


    Edit: Oh, and some more Adam Smith quotes, for those who've lost sight of what capitalist theory was meant to be about;

    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

    Rich people should pay more taxes, proportionally, not just in absolute terms.

    Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer

    Businesses and companies should only be given policy consideration by government if said policies are in the consumer's interests, rather than the business'.

    The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public

    Never trust policy pushed by business people. Their usual goal is to deceive and oppress the public.

    The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments.

    Anyone praising the rich and shitting on the poor is pushing amoral garbage.

    Seriously, if Smith were brought forward to today to see what capitalism has wrought, he'd probably self-identify as a democratic socialist.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-09-02 at 08:45 PM.


  5. #105
    Okay, at this point it has to be satire from Machismo, because nobody could REALLY think like this, could they?

    Or at least nobody could think like this and be so damn PROUD of themselves that they feel they need to share their thoughts on how to treat people with the rest of the world.

    So people should plan for both expected and unexpected eventualities. We can't help them because that's apparently communism. We have to treat them as badly as we possibly can so they get tough, and that way we can properly defend the worms when we need to.

    I'm telling you, this is somebody who read Dune and took ENTIRELY the wrong message from it. Maybe he was reading Heinlein at the same time and got things all mixed up?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    SNIP
    So, Fugus and I have discussed how to solve the issue, and I pointed out that it boils down to three basic concepts (other than liquidating or dissolving it entirely). They are:
    1) Increase taxes. This is either done by increasing the payroll tax of all Americans, or by increasing the earnings cap of people making more than ~$130k per year.
    2) Increasing the retirement age, so that less people are collecting. Bottom line, people are living longer, so they are collecting longer, and putting more stress on the system.
    3) Lowering benefits starting now, to ease the transition to insolvency, slowing it down, and allowing for people to prepare to cover ore of their own retirements when that time comes.

    Now, I would prefer to not raise taxes, because we've done it more than 20 times already, and we're still in this spot. I see merit in both the second and third ideas, as it allows for time to prepare, and promotes more individual responsibility.

    Now,

    Easy don't raise "taxes", just adjust for inflation. You know like they did 20 times already. That's all those tax increases were, adjustments to pay for the benefits people expected.


    My second choice is "fuck them". They stopped making "adjustments" around 1989 and we have not had an increase since then. 30 years of increases people never had a problem with till republicans figured out they could get more votes by being sorta kinda "anti tax".

    Since they caused their own problems, cut the benefits for people collecting while there is a shortfall till an adjustment is made and let them suffer or die right!!!!
    BTW my "second choice" is /s

    Medicare has the same problems, even worse because the shortfall is already here and its costing taxpayers 40% of the entire cost of Medicare each year in debt and interest.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Okay, at this point it has to be satire from Machismo, because nobody could REALLY think like this, could they?

    Or at least nobody could think like this and be so damn PROUD of themselves that they feel they need to share their thoughts on how to treat people with the rest of the world.
    I used to think that of Trump. Every time I thought he couldn't be so vile or stupid...

    There was a "thought" that as there are stuff we eat..ingest there are things that can be poisonous to the body. It's obvious there are ideas that are just as poisonous...but to the mind and soul.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Be prepared.

    It's not advice that should be this difficult to accept. At some point, people have to be responsible for themselves, to some degree. My whole position is for avoiding that iceberg, and all the rest to follow... and teach others to pay attention to the fucking icebergs.

    So, fund it. Fund it more and more, and watch as people revolt against the government taking more and more of their incomes. As it stands, the contribution is 12.4%, for both employee and employer combined. By my rough napkin math (Covering $2.5t over the that time period, we'd need to increase that rate to 14%, just to deal with the issue over the next 13.5 years. After that, it'd have to go up, again. The problem becomes even worse over the 15 years after that, because of Generation X retiring.

    Now, that may not seem like a lot, but it's an extra $700 per adult in the United States, per year. That's not nothing.
    Sorry its going to sting. If they just adjusted it a fraction of a fraction of a % every few years like they did the first 30 years it wouldn't be that bad now.

    Of course it could stay 6.2% for the employee and increase the employer % to 7.8%.

    Its not like they are not going to get the money back. Revolt over what?

    Of course that increase can be even smaller if you increase the tax based on income so that the people who can afford it the most take on the burden of the poor.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  9. #109
    @Zan15

    What I mentioned to Machismo as solutions were to potentially

    1: Raise or remove the exemption cap. Never mentioned increasing the rate at all. He was against it. Because “it increases the burden” neglecting the fact that the increases were for those making $130k+ and was a marginal increase by comparison and…

    2. Tax all income as income regardless of source so the top can’t use dividends and capital gains as income to dodge it. He was against this too because it was an increased burden on the rich while neglecting that this was a burden they were intended to share when it was created and they just learned how to dodge it and this would address that.

    Which got to his non-solution solution which boiled down to an elaborate way of saying “Fuck Em”.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  10. #110
    The only logical outcome to implement Machismo's ideas and appease those that share in his opinions: The Purge.

    That'd solve issues with society having to take care of its people...
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-02 at 09:25 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They have years and years to plan for this shit, so let them take care of themselves, or not... their choice.
    Spoken like someone who has never been on SS/SSD. We and yes I say we because I'm on SSD don't get to plan for shit. We are barely given enough (doesn't even equal min wage) and usually have to live with others.

    So please do tell me how do I PLAN for losing my SSD and that includes all my meds as well. If I try to get a job I lose SSD/Meds (been here done this) and that job doesn't cover the loss because once again wages are shit.

    There is no system in place to help someone in my spot try to do better. If you try to get a job you can do you lose everything else, if you just live on SSD you barely make anything and are usually forced to live with others.

    I make $795 a month, after bills I don't have shit left over. But by all means feel free to tell me how I can plan ahead and save money that also includes covering my over $1000 a month in meds.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
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  12. #112
    Food prices are at record highs...and will continue to rise. Another reason why no one accepts even $15hr now as a minimum wage.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, if Smith were brought forward to today to see what capitalism has wrought, he'd probably self-identify as a democratic socialist.
    Self identified modern "capitalists" are about as followers of Adam Smith as most Christians are followers of Christ.

    Big fans of the books, never actually read a page of it tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I think of it a lot like states like Florida and Texas, who didn't take the pandemic seriously, and are getting crushed as a result. Hell, I'm talking about everyone who didn't take it seriously, despite the ample warnings. Now, take those warnings, and push them out a total of 30-40 years, that's how much time people had to prepare for this particular "pandemic." At some point, their actions stop being my responsibility. If a person cannot be bothered, then why should I bother?

    This is no different than a lifelong smoker dying of lung cancer. Sure, it sucks, but is it really my burden, much less my fault? I say it is not.

    If some anti-vaxxer in Florida gets sick, and his hospital bills stack up in his lap, that should not be my burden to bear.
    Thing is, at least with this, someone else will always be stuck with the result unless we tell these people to just go out in the street and die. Hospitals CANNOT turn away people(they are forced to help someone until they are stabilized and can be released) so in turn, when they cannot pay, it directly increases the price for everyone else. The same can be said for theft at a grocery story(or any retailer). It causes a direct effect of increased prices because someone else either is unwilling or unable to pay for something and, in the case with healthcare, is forced to use it because they have no other options.

    Insurance rates will go up because of all of this.

    The US had this discussion year ago when Social Security came up. It decided it was better to provide for its elderly citizens then either let them work until death or leave them to die because they are infirm and their family is unable to care for them due to being too poor to do anything about it.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Spoken like someone who has never been on SS/SSD. We and yes I say we because I'm on SSD don't get to plan for shit. We are barely given enough (doesn't even equal min wage) and usually have to live with others.

    So please do tell me how do I PLAN for losing my SSD and that includes all my meds as well. If I try to get a job I lose SSD/Meds (been here done this) and that job doesn't cover the loss because once again wages are shit.

    There is no system in place to help someone in my spot try to do better. If you try to get a job you can do you lose everything else, if you just live on SSD you barely make anything and are usually forced to live with others.

    I make $795 a month, after bills I don't have shit left over. But by all means feel free to tell me how I can plan ahead and save money that also includes covering my over $1000 a month in meds.
    I mentioned that to him personally and asked how someone making less than $900 a month was going to handle making less. He couldn't give an answer beyond it not being his problem.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    @Zan15

    What I mentioned to Machismo as solutions were to potentially

    1: Raise or remove the exemption cap. Never mentioned increasing the rate at all. He was against it. Because “it increases the burden” neglecting the fact that the increases were for those making $130k+ and was a marginal increase by comparison and…

    2. Tax all income as income regardless of source so the top can’t use dividends and capital gains as income to dodge it. He was against this too because it was an increased burden on the rich while neglecting that this was a burden they were intended to share when it was created and they just learned how to dodge it and this would address that.

    Which got to his non-solution solution which boiled down to an elaborate way of saying “Fuck Em”.
    I've been saying for a number of years now that they need to remove the cap PLUS include all forms of income(except 401k and other things that are specifically designed for retirement) to be subject to payroll taxes. It would make SS "solvent" for a long time to come.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I mentioned that to him personally and asked how someone making less than $900 a month was going to handle making less. He couldn't give an answer beyond it not being his problem.
    Easy peasy! That person needs to be born to rich parents next time! Sickness and the Capitalist Hellscape "healthcare system"? PAH! Don't get sick! P L A N for it!!


    Seriously though, it boggles the mind how some people can be so utterly starved of empathy to suggest that those at the bottom of society just "git gud".

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    I've been saying for a number of years now that they need to remove the cap PLUS include all forms of income(except 401k and other things that are specifically designed for retirement) to be subject to payroll taxes. It would make SS "solvent" for a long time to come.
    Agreed.

    He asked what I considered "Tax all income as income". I told him that taxing dividends paid for stocks and when stocks are sold as income and when they are inherited in someones death, they are treated as income and subject to the exemption cap.

    He wasn't a fan of that either. In his view, the rich who do that shouldn't be taxed at all I guess.

    Of course, in his view, it is attacking the rich if you put minimum wage at a living wage and taking away THEIR freedoms.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I mentioned that to him personally and asked how someone making less than $900 a month was going to handle making less. He couldn't give an answer beyond it not being his problem.
    Yep living on this system sucks and what sucks more is people who judge us and have no fucking clue how it is.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
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  20. #120
    For those interested in seeing libertarian regurgitation;

    anarchist and libertarian thread

    and this closed thread

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