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  1. #501
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Interesting that the only way you can avoid the question is to make one player better than the other - why not compare to equally skilled players with similar / identical playtime etc?
    This data wasn't supplied at the time of the question.

    The answer would be the brother with more gold. The other brother, however, could catch up to him in time, either by saving his in-game money and waiting for prices to drop or buying from WoWGoldFarmersOnly.ChinaFarmers.Net or a WoW Token. They've already bought their accounts from WoWGoldFarmersOnly.ChinaFarmers.Net, maybe he could get a discount?

    The real question comes up, what do you do when they're both outdamaged by the Disc Priest? Its assumed since they're equally skilled, meaning that they probably know nothing about their characters since they bought the accounts, and bought the gear and didnt put the effort in to learn them while gearing up.

    And then there's the question of the WHAT TO DO. so you have this super amazing gear. You can stomp daily quests like nothing, but there's no point in doing it cause they don't give anything worthwhile to the boosted. You can't get into a respectable level M+ because your DPS is dogshit and your group wipes on trash because you're carrying two dead weights. Mythic Raiding has the same problem, sure you have CE: Sylvanas but if you get into a Mythic Raid, again your DPS is so dogshit and you die to the most avoidable telegraphed mechanics that you should know how to avoid (having CE) that you get booted before you can even get saved to the lockout. PVP? You're just a flashy target waiting to be stunlocked by a rogue. or a Paladin. Or a Warrior. Or a Druid. Or a Paladin.

    So now you're sitting there with BIS gear, but you can't do anything. Here's your crown, King Nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And to counter the P2W argument: what happens when you have two brothers, equal skilled and all that jazz, but one played the AH better and put more effort into making gold than the other?
    Last edited by SinR; 2021-09-08 at 08:29 PM.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
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  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Yes

    /ten chars
    What power can I buy, step by step this so I can show where you are wrong. I will try and be as good faith to your argument here so feel free to correct.
    1) buy wow token with $$
    2) sell wow token to make gold
    3) use gold to buy ___ (here is the problem)

    I do not need any 246 gear from M+, so M+ sales get me nothing other then vault prog that I can do on my own with my own friends or even pugs. There is no BoE from the raid that is an upgrade for me. So the only remaining source for me is raid and I already participate in a Mythic raid. I can't go to a funnel group. But lets say I skip my raid and go to a funnel grp the number of drops I need are very limited and even if I paid(millions and millions) for a 19 leather funnel grp there is no guarantee that my upgrades drop. I could buy weeks and weeks of funnels and still might not see my drops. I don't gain more chances at the limited upgrades I need.

    What power can I buy with my $$$?
    Last edited by Elbob; 2021-09-08 at 08:47 PM.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    What power can I buy, step by step this so I can show where you are wrong. I will try and be as good faith to your argument here so feel free to correct.
    1) buy wow token with $$
    2) sell wow token to make gold
    3) use gold to buy ___ (here is the problem)

    I do not need and 246 gear from M+, so M+ sales get me nothing other then vault prog that I can do on my own with my own friends or even pugs. There is no BoE from the raid that is an upgrade for me. So the only remaining source for me is raid and I already participate in a Mythic raid. I can't go to a funnel group. But lets say I skip my raid and go to a funnel grp the number of drops I need are very limited and even if I paid(millions and millions) for a 19 leather funnel grp there is no guarantee that my upgrades drop. I could buy weeks and weeks of funnels and still might not see my drops. I don't gain more chances at the limited upgrades I need.

    What power can I buy with my $$$?
    I have 8/10 mythic all +20s done with my highest key a timed 25.

    I can honestly say I can buy power with the token so I find it comical and even farcical that you are trying so utterly desperately to say no.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You are so very, very confused. Why do you keep talking about the best in the world, and the "lowliest" players only? You are intentionally only looking at this from absolute extremes. You just seem so very confused by all this and it really is not confusing at all.

    Two brothers decide to get back into wow - they both do exactly the same thing - they buy an account, and pay to boost their toon. They play together through to max level, same class, same spec. The hit max level with identical gear.

    One has more money than the other, and buys a few tokens and sells them. He buys every BOE and max level Lego he can get his hands on. Maxes everything out - power levels his professions over a few hours.

    Who has an advantage, and how did they gain that advantage?

    Two guilds are pushing for the highest world rank they can get during the new raid. One raid team caps out their tokens and gold caps their toons from tokens, one does not. Who has the advantage?

    I can't understand why people cannot accept something so simple as wow having P2W components and features - most of us are not even saying it's a bad thing or a problem, but it absolutely is a fact. You can use real world money to gain an advantage over other players, and that, by definition, is pay to win.

    The sad truth is, nearly all games have p2w features these days if it has any sort of multiplayer. Even some single player games allow you to pay extra to unlock what almost amount to cheats - extra health, unlimited ammo, cars, armor, etc.
    0 confusion because p2w is a binary. Either the game has purchasable power for everyone or not. As discussed I don't have purchasable power. As to your brothers since I'll actually address points instead of just calling you confused. The gold is being used to catch up to current content, quickly leveling professions and legendaries(which are gated by soul ashe/cinders more than gold) only help them return to participating with the rest of the community on the current patch. Accelerating yourself to the current content is not p2w.

    WF raiders have the commitment to the game and the time investment to have the gold to afford BoE's if they want it. WF guilds spend all that gold and have deals with their raiders on how they plan to make gold and grant boe's as quickly and efficiently as possible. My guild which is not WF and I don't know of anyone buying tokens can afford all the boes they want on new patch launch. The proper question is "Can a guild buying tokens guarantee an advantage over a guild that doesn't". No, they can't because anyone that wants to partake in that race has the ability to make the needed gold ahead of time.

    You gain no advantage(power or acquisition system) other players don't have access to by paying gold. The advantage for p2w must be universal. If you can tell me what I would need to buy for a guarentee'd power increase on my main step by step I will purchase it and the equivalent for you or any player you want.

  5. #505
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I have 8/10 mythic all +20s done with my highest key a timed 25.

    I can honestly say I can buy power with the token so I find it comical and even farcical that you are trying so utterly desperately to say no.
    And how does Joe Schmoe know your .io or M+ Score or whatever is legit?

    You get your invite and one of two things happens:

    1) you wreck the place
    2) the place wrecks you

    Gear can only do so much when you're too bad at the game to understand the concept of interrupts.

    Good on you for (presumably) getting where you are without having to buy it. You get your invite to the M+ and you blow it the fuck up.

    Joe Boosted, who played the auction house and grinded (ground?) his ass off for gold buys his timed 20 keys and gets an invite to the M+ dungeon. He goes in and gets blown the fuck up and causes his group to wipe.

    John McDeepPockets went and bought a (few?) WoW token(s?), buys the gear and gets his timed 20 keys, goes in, and gets absolutely DEMOLISHED by the most stupid shit. He gets kicked and the group dissolves two pulls in.

    Whos the real winner here?
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I have 8/10 mythic all +20s done with my highest key a timed 25.

    I can honestly say I can buy power with the token so I find it comical and even farcical that you are trying so utterly desperately to say no.
    Tell me what power I can buy then. Stop dodging the question

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Oh, is it already time for us to get into another 12-page debate over the semantics of the term Pay2Win? Did we learn nothing from the last 30 times this happened?
    cant speak for others, i learned that reality doesnt matter, bcs rather than change their opinion to fit reality some people will try to twist reality to fit their opinion, and when it doesnt work (duh) they pretend it does and that they and only they are right, and everybody who disagree is moron/shill or whatnot

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Tell me what power I can buy then. Stop dodging the question
    Mythic sylvanas gear.

    This is childish beyond belief and I honestly don't believe you are genuinely this dense.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Mythic sylvanas gear.

    This is childish beyond belief and I honestly don't believe you are genuinely this dense.
    I've addressed mythic raid gear, there is 1 drop that helps me from her and there is no way to guarantee the loot. And I already participate in a mythic raid. I can not go to a 2nd one.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Personally I think this is why the token system really isn't that bad. Sure Blizz are skimming odd the top but it makes it a largely player-driven economy where some of us can grind up the gold needed to get shop items without needing to pay any extra cash, and others can "profit" by having their subs, expansions and even other Blizz games paid for.
    .
    And bots, and devaluing achievements and P2W gear. Yes, it is amazing! Player driven economy... right. More like Bot driven economy.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Honestly who wants this?


    These transmogs are way more visually striking and most likely will offer more particle effects and other enhancements than in game items. Honestly everyone needs to protest this crap before it gets out of control. These are new appearences that can be used for unique events like Mage Tower 2.0 or other game feats of strength.....


    How are people ok with this?
    Considering just how popular FFXIV is right now, which is known for its cash shop, I'd say this stuff is just way too popular for Blizzard to not do it. I don't like it, but truth be told, no one is gonna quit WoW just because of that, while thousands will buy it.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    This data wasn't supplied at the time of the question.

    The answer would be the brother with more gold. The other brother, however, could catch up to him in time, either by saving his in-game money and waiting for prices to drop or buying from WoWGoldFarmersOnly.ChinaFarmers.Net or a WoW Token. They've already bought their accounts from WoWGoldFarmersOnly.ChinaFarmers.Net, maybe he could get a discount?

    The real question comes up, what do you do when they're both outdamaged by the Disc Priest? Its assumed since they're equally skilled, meaning that they probably know nothing about their characters since they bought the accounts, and bought the gear and didnt put the effort in to learn them while gearing up.

    And then there's the question of the WHAT TO DO. so you have this super amazing gear. You can stomp daily quests like nothing, but there's no point in doing it cause they don't give anything worthwhile to the boosted. You can't get into a respectable level M+ because your DPS is dogshit and your group wipes on trash because you're carrying two dead weights. Mythic Raiding has the same problem, sure you have CE: Sylvanas but if you get into a Mythic Raid, again your DPS is so dogshit and you die to the most avoidable telegraphed mechanics that you should know how to avoid (having CE) that you get booted before you can even get saved to the lockout. PVP? You're just a flashy target waiting to be stunlocked by a rogue. or a Paladin. Or a Warrior. Or a Druid. Or a Paladin.

    So now you're sitting there with BIS gear, but you can't do anything. Here's your crown, King Nothing.
    Who said they bought their accounts illegaly? When i said bought their accouts, i should have been clearer - purchased the game + sub from Blizzard to begin their journey.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Considering just how popular FFXIV is right now, which is known for its cash shop, I'd say this stuff is just way too popular for Blizzard to not do it. I don't like it, but truth be told, no one is gonna quit WoW just because of that, while thousands will buy it.
    In what world is FF14 "known for its cash shop"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
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  13. #513
    Stood in the Fire sylenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Honestly who wants this?


    These transmogs are way more visually striking and most likely will offer more particle effects and other enhancements than in game items. Honestly everyone needs to protest this crap before it gets out of control. These are new appearences that can be used for unique events like Mage Tower 2.0 or other game feats of strength.....


    How are people ok with this?
    it is like the retarded horse back in the day: if you know, you know.

    you see someone with these specific sets and you know they bought it. and as always there will be prettier versions in higher difficulty areas and people get the thing they want: options. also, the game gets revenue which is also good.
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  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    0 confusion because p2w is a binary. Either the game has purchasable power for everyone or not. As discussed I don't have purchasable power. As to your brothers since I'll actually address points instead of just calling you confused. The gold is being used to catch up to current content, quickly leveling professions and legendaries(which are gated by soul ashe/cinders more than gold) only help them return to participating with the rest of the community on the current patch. Accelerating yourself to the current content is not p2w.

    WF raiders have the commitment to the game and the time investment to have the gold to afford BoE's if they want it. WF guilds spend all that gold and have deals with their raiders on how they plan to make gold and grant boe's as quickly and efficiently as possible. My guild which is not WF and I don't know of anyone buying tokens can afford all the boes they want on new patch launch. The proper question is "Can a guild buying tokens guarantee an advantage over a guild that doesn't". No, they can't because anyone that wants to partake in that race has the ability to make the needed gold ahead of time.

    You gain no advantage(power or acquisition system) other players don't have access to by paying gold. The advantage for p2w must be universal. If you can tell me what I would need to buy for a guarentee'd power increase on my main step by step I will purchase it and the equivalent for you or any player you want.
    No, not a single definition I have found dictates that it MUST be power not obtainable through other means. And yes, a feature being P2W or not is binary, but everything else is NOT binary
    – how much of an advantage you gain is not binary
    – how prevalent these features are is not binary
    – the standard business model of the game is not binary
    – the time required to obtain those items through gameplay is not binary
    These things dictate if the game as a whole is considered P2W, or if it just has some features which would be considered P2W. The problem with trying to force this to be a binary issue is it then says a game which offers a full set of gear 3 times more powerful than the most powerful gear in the game, which can only be purchase for $2000usd is exactly the same as a game that offers a 5%xp boost for $1.99usd, and nothing else.
    To attempt to oversimplify this issue to a binary one is an attempt to then say “see, ALL games are P2W! WoW isn’t any different!”
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
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  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    In what world is FF14 "known for its cash shop"?
    Kinda hard to ignore the 600 items on it my dude. Oh, and you can purchase an actual fucking whale. Something something irony?
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  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You're giving yourself more credit than you deserve.

    If WoW's virtual inflation was the reason why Blizzard bothered with making these changes, they wouldn't have raised the gold acquired through tokens fivefold since the end of WoD, but that somehow eluded your majestic perception.
    ... Did I read this right, you think that BLIZZARD decides how much gold you get from the tokens at any given time?

    Supply and demand, it is called. Reason why they didn't magically up the token's value to 500k or 1 million gold with the Brutosaur's announced extinction and such.

    Players buying/selling decides what the token costs. Anything else is BS conspiracy takes.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-08 at 09:52 PM.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Kinda hard to ignore the 600 items on it my dude. Oh, and you can purchase an actual fucking whale. Something something irony?
    How many of them give player power or advantages? I played FF14 for 2 years without even opening the cash shop once - i didnt even know about it for the first year. My point stands - FF14 is known for a lot of things - skimpy outfits, catgirls, story, and flashy spells - i have never once heard it refered to as "that P2W game with the cash shop"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  18. #518
    Banned Strawberry's Avatar
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    This actually appeals to me. I'd rather chuck $20 to Blizzard and get a cool look than farm raids for months and still not get what I want.

    Where can I find more information (models) on this?

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How many of them give player power or advantages? I played FF14 for 2 years without even opening the cash shop once - i didnt even know about it for the first year. My point stands - FF14 is known for a lot of things - skimpy outfits, catgirls, story, and flashy spells - i have never once heard it refered to as "that P2W game with the cash shop"
    Well, WoW's store doesn't offer P2W options neither, yet people, many of whom literally lavish praise over FFXIV, can't stop bitching about its existence.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    ... Did I read this right, you think that BLIZZARD decides how much gold you get from the tokens at any given time?

    Supply and demand, it is called. Reason why they didn't magically up the token's value to 500k gold with the Brutosaur's announced extinction and such.

    Players buying/selling decides what the token costs. Anything else is BS conspiracy takes.
    I remember early on they said they can and do manipulate the token price when they think it is required, and my understanding is they absolutely reserve the right to change it to whatever they want any time they want. That doesn’t stop it being a supply and demand feature though, as if Blizzard messed with the numbers too much the demand would drop off, one way or the other. Like I said though, this was early on in the tokens life, maybe even before it was launched, so things might have changed, im really not 100% sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Well, WoW's store doesn't offer P2W options neither, yet people, many of whom literally lavish praise over FFXIV, can't stop bitching about its existence.
    So you dont consider the ability to skip multiple expansions of content (time), or purchase gold to be examples of P2W features?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

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