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  1. #521
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    This actually appeals to me. I'd rather chuck $20 to Blizzard and get a cool look than farm raids for months and still not get what I want.

    Where can I find more information (models) on this?
    it was a datamined Shop Banner that this whole new wave of Outrage, which in turn led to the usual rabble complaining about WoW token and P2W, which is distracting from the issue at hand: a pretty Tmog in the WoW Shop
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
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  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How many of them give player power or advantages? I played FF14 for 2 years without even opening the cash shop once - i didnt even know about it for the first year. My point stands - FF14 is known for a lot of things - skimpy outfits, catgirls, story, and flashy spells - i have never once heard it refered to as "that P2W game with the cash shop"
    I mean, there's the $25 boost too. You do kind of get an advantage with that, but that's mostly because of the way FFXIV works. Also, for a guy that loves to point out when people are arguing a point that wasn't ever made, you should re-read the guy you quoted originally. He never said that FFXIV is P2W either.
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  3. #523
    Make good set so players start to PLAY and ENJOY the game? Blizz: NO!
    Make good set so players pay and forget about playing? Blizz: Yes!

    Way to go. Blizz is all about knowing how to milk your cow till it die.

    We, the players, are just looking at it... while it goes down. We can't stop the greed of shareholders. It's a lost cause.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I remember early on they said they can and do manipulate the token price when they think it is required, and my understanding is they absolutely reserve the right to change it to whatever they want any time they want. That doesn’t stop it being a supply and demand feature though, as if Blizzard messed with the numbers too much the demand would drop off, one way or the other. Like I said though, this was early on in the tokens life, maybe even before it was launched, so things might have changed, im really not 100% sure.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you dont consider the ability to skip multiple expansions of content (time), or purchase gold to be examples of P2W features?
    No, I do not.

    Who does it make me a "winner" against, exactly? I've saved time and gotten some convenience, that's it.

    And yes, I too remember that they COULD go in and change, but if it was something they just blatantly do to promote sales, we'd see far more fluctuation in the price than we actually do and we'd hardly ever see the token give enough gold that you could save money on it.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I mean, there's the $25 boost too. You do kind of get an advantage with that, but that's mostly because of the way FFXIV works. Also, for a guy that loves to point out when people are arguing a point that wasn't ever made, you should re-read the guy you quoted originally. He never said that FFXIV is P2W either.
    I asked a question, it wasnt a statement. Personally, because of how FF14 and the mandatory MSQ work, i consider the advantage much greater in FF14 compared to wow, which can be blasted through extremely quickly even on a fresh account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    No, I do not.

    Who does it make me a "winner" against, exactly? I've saved time and gotten some convenience, that's it.
    For the 400th time, in no reality does the term p2w indicate you must WIN - it is about gaining an ADVANTAGE. And you explained the advantage perfectly in the next sentence - saves time. It drives me up the wall when people intentionally make this "mistake" - which is strange, because im not in a car, and im not working my way up the wall. Almost like terms and phrases, especially colloquial ones, do not equal the literal definition of their words.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-09-08 at 10:00 PM.
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    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
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  6. #526
    Banned Strawberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    it was a datamined Shop Banner that this whole new wave of Outrage, which in turn led to the usual rabble complaining about WoW token and P2W, which is distracting from the issue at hand: a pretty Tmog in the WoW Shop
    I see.
    Thanks for the answer. I'll await some official stuff then and see what the datamined part is all about.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I asked a question, it wasnt a statement.

    - - - Updated - - -



    For the 400th time, in no reality does the term p2w indicate you must WIN - it is about gaining an ADVANTAGE. And you explained the advantage perfectly in the next sentence - saves time. It drives me up the wall when people intentionally make this "mistake" - which is strange, because im not in a car, and im not working my way up the wall. Almost like terms and phrases do not equal the literaly definition of their words.
    Ok, so saves time. Who is the advantage against then? Will it guarantee me spots in organized content? Will I surely get all the desirable items?

    P2W giving an "advantage" to me is if I as a player vs other players can pay to have an advantage over them as we play against one-another. A person buying their Gladiator set won't magically outclass skilled players obtaining it by their own skill. Same with those buying boosts to raids.

    As a player that actually wants to play the game, I'm not exactly seeing how "saving time" leveling a character gives someone an advantage over other players.

  8. #528
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Doesn't FFXIV have Story Skip option in the FFXIV Store?

    Granted it doesn't give you levels but it lets you skip the boring old stuff that you've done a few times before.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I asked a question, it wasnt a statement. Personally, because of how FF14 and the mandatory MSQ work, i consider the advantage much greater in FF14 compared to wow, which can be blasted through extremely quickly even on a fresh account.
    Tomatoes/tomatoes. Just because you haven't heard something doesn't mean other people cannot perceive it that way. Personally, I wrote off FFXIV when I found out the only multipassenger mount in the game was a literal fucking whale that cost $40. (We get it, Squeenix.)

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For the 400th time, in no reality does the term p2w indicate you must WIN - it is about gaining an ADVANTAGE. And you explained the advantage perfectly in the next sentence - saves time. It drives me up the wall when people intentionally make this "mistake" - which is strange, because im not in a car, and im not working my way up the wall. Almost like terms and phrases, especially colloquial ones, do not equal the literal definition of their words.
    I'd just put your view of the term in your signature at this point. I've seen you belabor this semantic viewpoint close to a dozen times now.
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  10. #530
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    I see.
    Thanks for the answer. I'll await some official stuff then and see what the datamined part is all about.


    The datamined picture in question, the "New" is the one on the bottom left with Sparkle Pony
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'd just put your view of the term in your signature at this point. I've seen you belabor this semantic viewpoint close to a dozen times now.
    Its not my view of the term, its the definition of the term - both commonly accepted, and what you will find if you google "pay to win".
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  12. #532
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you dont consider the ability to skip multiple expansions of content (time), or purchase gold to be examples of P2W features?
    FFxiv sells both a skip and Gil in the same pack if you’re gonna say wow is P2W or selling power for those things then so is Ff.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Its not my view of the term, its the definition of the term - both commonly accepted, and what you will find if you google "pay to win".
    Nice try but I've seen this episode before.
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  14. #534
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Doesn't FFXIV have Story Skip option in the FFXIV Store?

    Granted it doesn't give you levels but it lets you skip the boring old stuff that you've done a few times before.
    It does and the skip also gives you a whack of Gil so it’s like having the token rolled in with it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Tomatoes/tomatoes. Just because you haven't heard something doesn't mean other people cannot perceive it that way. Personally, I wrote off FFXIV when I found out the only multipassenger mount in the game was a literal fucking whale that cost $40. (We get it, Squeenix.)



    I'd just put your view of the term in your signature at this point. I've seen you belabor this semantic viewpoint close to a dozen times now.
    At this point to me it seems that nobody can actually stipulate in no uncertain terms what it means to "win/have an advantage" on other players in MMORPGs like WoW and FFXIV.

    And in my book, it's because there are none. No matter how one slices it, a person buying gold and buying boosts will never be able to buy actual power over OTHER players.

    They can buy cosmetics, they can buy empty poser's bragging rights, they can buy their way into collections. That's it. They can't buy power in that they'd outperform non-buyers and thus secure a place in high end content spots, or wins against actual skilled people in PVP and thus securing future Seasonal wins.

    Buyers, posers, get stuck in a loop of buying their way to shinies and hoping that noone takes too close a look at their actual achievements/progress data. Yeah, so much "winning/advantage" over any and all non-buyers...

    And the hyperbole club stipulating that the store's mounts/appearances have "literally led to fewer and drab low-effort mounts and appearances in-game"... Well, they're just blind.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-08 at 10:17 PM.

  16. #536
    But...think of the shareholders!

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It does and the skip also gives you a whack of Gil so it’s like having the token rolled in with it.
    Nah man, it's items not Gil itself. As we've learned, tokens are gold that can buy items which makes it P2W but items that can be sold for Gil are not P2W. Simple logic.
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  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    FFxiv sells both a skip and Gil in the same pack if you’re gonna say wow is P2W or selling power for those things then so is Ff.
    I have never said FF14 does not have any P2W features. When you say you can buy gil, do you actually mean the skip includes some currency, just like wow? From memory the amount of gil is extremely low in the scheme of things - roughly the same you would get for powering through JUST the MSQ for a day or two. Maybe its changed, but im sure it was around 300k.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    At this point to me it seems that nobody can actually stipulate in no uncertain terms what it means to "win/have an advantage" on other players in MMORPGs like WoW and FFXIV.
    Wrong - only the defenders of Blizzard have trouble with the definition, because all commonly used definitions mean some of wows features absolutely are P2W, so they try and twist and screw the definition to suit their narrative. What part of "gaining an advantage" is confusing for you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Nice try but I've seen this episode before.
    So you are not willing to google "pay to win" and read a couple of the top results? If not, why not? Are you saying your defintion is different to the commonly accepted definionts? If so, why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have never said FF14 does not have any P2W features. When you say you can buy gil, do you actually mean the skip includes some currency, just like wow?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wrong - only the defenders of Blizzard have trouble with the definition, because all commonly used definitions mean some of wows features absolutely are P2W, so they try and twist and screw the definition to suit their narrative. What part of "gaining an advantage" is confusing for you?
    Explain how the advantage relates to other players in a concrete way. How is it gaining an advantage skipping levels/story content vs me who can do it without spending extra money and get the exact same end result just fine.

    Spare me the fallacies, explain instead in no uncertain terms what I'm asking of you to explain. "He got an advantage!" is vague as fuck.

    Edit: The more I read, the clearer it becomes that the "advantage" side is just something thrown in to mitigate the power of the word "win", but the end result remains the same. There is no objective form of winning/getting an advantage over other players where it matters in WoW.

    FFXIV I wouldn't know, but skipping story content and cosmetics doesn't sound very egregious.

    https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-pa...n-video-games/
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-08 at 10:31 PM.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you are not willing to google "pay to win" and read a couple of the top results? If not, why not? Are you saying your defintion is different to the commonly accepted definionts? If so, why?
    I told you, I've seen this episode. Jeez.
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