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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Explain how the advantage relates to other players in a concrete way. How is it gaining an advantage skipping levels/story content vs me who can do it without spending extra money and get the exact same end result just fine.

    Spare me the fallacies, explain instead in no uncertain terms what I'm asking of you to explain. "He got an advantage!" is vague as fuck.
    One person gets there instantly, the other must spend time to catch up - thats the advantage. Or do you believe someone starting 1m from the finish line has no advantage over someone starting 99m behind them?

    Defenders then shift the goalposts and start talking about endgame and gear and player skill - all entirely irrelevant when discussing what the person purchased.
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  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have never said FF14 does not have any P2W features. When you say you can buy gil, do you actually mean the skip includes some currency, just like wow? From memory the amount of gil is extremely low in the scheme of things - roughly the same you would get for powering through JUST the MSQ for a day or two. Maybe its changed, but im sure it was around 300k.
    Sure you didn’t flat out say it you just heavily implied it.

    The token is also extremely low in the scheme of things but just like the token of some one wants to buy gold they can and will buy multiples.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure you didn’t flat out say it you just heavily implied it.

    The token is also extremely low in the scheme of things but just like the token of some one wants to buy gold they can and will buy multiples.
    I dont believe i ever implied it, heavily or otherwise - quote it for me so i can see where i "heavily implied" that FF14 doesnt have any P2W features.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    just like the token of some one wants to buy gold they can and will buy multiples.
    Sorry but i have no idea what you are trying to say here.
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  4. #544
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I dont believe i ever implied it, heavily or otherwise - quote it for me so i can see where i "heavily implied" that FF14 doesnt have any P2W features.
    This post here?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How many of them give player power or advantages? I played FF14 for 2 years without even opening the cash shop once - i didnt even know about it for the first year. My point stands - FF14 is known for a lot of things - skimpy outfits, catgirls, story, and flashy spells - i have never once heard it refered to as "that P2W game with the cash shop"
    P2W wasn’t even brought up in the post you quoted but you went out of your way to bring it up and point out how Ff wasn’t known for it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    One person gets there instantly, the other must spend time to catch up - thats the advantage. Or do you believe someone starting 1m from the finish line has no advantage over someone starting 99m behind them?

    Defenders then shift the goalposts and start talking about endgame and gear and player skill - all entirely irrelevant when discussing what the person purchased.
    Yeah, sorry. Gonna have to agree to disagree, because that's not an advantage to me. I've seen my fair share of players reach max level before myself, only to lag behind when it comes to character progress beyond the point of dinging.

    Not P2W. I've held this stance for 7 years now, there's no "shifting goalposts" as I know very well what I consider winning/an advantage in games, and hun, paying for a fucking level boost or poser's rights, ain't it. Higher power than those not paying, or locking progress behind paywalls you can only get around by paying extra. Neither of which exists in WoW.

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  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sorry but i have no idea what you are trying to say here.
    The skip might not give a lot of Gil but neither do tokens. If people want a lot of gold or Gil they will buy multiple tokens or multiple skips and move the Gil around.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Yeah, sorry. Gonna have to agree to disagree, because that's not an advantage to me. I've seen my fair share of players reach max level before myself, only to lag behind when it comes to character progress beyond the point of dinging.

    Not P2W. I've held this stance for 7 years now, there's no "shifting goalposts" as I know very well what I consider winning/an advantage in games, and hun, paying for a fucking level boost or poser's rights, ain't it. Higher power than those not paying, or locking progress behind paywalls you can only get around by paying extra. Neither of which exists in WoW.
    Called it - i knew exactly what you would say, because its your only way to reduce the P2W nature of skipping straight to the most recent content.
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  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, not a single definition I have found dictates that it MUST be power not obtainable through other means. And yes, a feature being P2W or not is binary, but everything else is NOT binary
    – how much of an advantage you gain is not binary
    – how prevalent these features are is not binary
    – the standard business model of the game is not binary
    – the time required to obtain those items through gameplay is not binary
    These things dictate if the game as a whole is considered P2W, or if it just has some features which would be considered P2W. The problem with trying to force this to be a binary issue is it then says a game which offers a full set of gear 3 times more powerful than the most powerful gear in the game, which can only be purchase for $2000usd is exactly the same as a game that offers a 5%xp boost for $1.99usd, and nothing else.
    To attempt to oversimplify this issue to a binary one is an attempt to then say “see, ALL games are P2W! WoW isn’t any different!”
    Not one definition huh?
    "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money. ... Most games these days, especially multiplayer titles, have microtransactions, loot boxes, battles passes, and similar monetization systems"
    legit googled "Define pay to win". Now we can break down this definition a bit.

    The underlined portion is talking about monetization systems but don't necessarily equate to P2W systems. All of those things CAN be P2W but are not by definition as per the first part including "real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money". Hopefully we can agree here that loot boxes with nothing but cosmetics or a cash shop with only cosmetic are not P2W.

    Now feel free to correct me but our disagreement is around the words "advantage over those who don't spend any money" in the first half the definition.
    -A full BiS player in wow can have spent $0 on wow tokens and being BiS means they have no power gains available to purchase. A player choosing to pay money can't gain an advantage on that player, he can't be stronger then him.
    -You have to compare to the BiS player because the definition says "over those who don't spend any money." and he did not.
    -You pulled this argument into the "race" aspect before about competitive WF guilds but those players have easily have the couple million gold required to purchase those BoE's ready ahead of time without spending $$$ on tokens.

    If the definition didn't intend to include all players who didn't spend money the "who don't spend any money" is redundant, because it would then be about money granting power in general. It does include it though, so to qualify this definition we assume it covers all non spenders.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    This post here?



    P2W wasn’t even brought up in the post you quoted but you went out of your way to bring it up and point out how Ff wasn’t known for it.
    its a QUESTION - everything else is just in your head - i even explained that i have hardly even looked at the FF14 shop - in no way whatsoever did i imply that it is not P2W.
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  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Called it - i knew exactly what you would say, because its your only way to reduce the P2W nature of skipping straight to the most recent content.
    Good on you.

    It might put someone at an unfair advantage vs you that they ding before you, not true for this player though. Also, the way of WoW's boost. Ain't no buying your way to max level until the expansion is old, and then you're still not possibly getting any advantages over other players that those players cannot achieve on their own and without paying extra.

    Sorry.

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    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-08 at 10:46 PM.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you dont consider the ability to skip multiple expansions of content (time), or purchase gold to be examples of P2W features?

    I for damn sure purchased the story skip for the base game to catch up to my buddies because I had more fun spamming dungeons and that tower thing than that god forsaken dog shit main story quest. I literally never would have touched the game with my friends and had the fun I did in the expansions without it. And I definitely remember them having level boots too.


    So the best you can say here is they're both equally bad in the P2W. And I agree with the other guy. It's a small advantage maybe but not really much of one. In today's world I don't have time to ditch school only to have a bounty hunter kill me at the trainer and cost me 8 hours of grinding to regrind that same 8 hours that evening. And other than the FF14 instance where I absolutely loathed the quests I'll happily grind out and not give two licks of a shit if anyone wants to pay for a boost. Hell the Shadowlands expect boost helped my buddy find his new favorite class. He was struggling as a SP since cata but decided to try a mage with his boost. Having a lot more fun and all his current "power" he earned by playing M plus.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2021-09-08 at 10:47 PM.
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  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Not one definition huh?
    "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money. ... Most games these days, especially multiplayer titles, have microtransactions, loot boxes, battles passes, and similar monetization systems"
    legit googled "Define pay to win". Now we can break down this definition a bit.

    The underlined portion is talking about monetization systems but don't necessarily equate to P2W systems. All of those things CAN be P2W but are not by definition as per the first part including "real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money". Hopefully we can agree here that loot boxes with nothing but cosmetics or a cash shop with only cosmetic are not P2W.

    Now feel free to correct me but our disagreement is around the words "advantage over those who don't spend any money" in the first half the definition.
    -A full BiS player in wow can have spent $0 on wow tokens and being BiS means they have no power gains available to purchase. A player choosing to pay money can't gain an advantage on that player, he can't be stronger then him.
    -You have to compare to the BiS player because the definition says "over those who don't spend any money." and he did not.
    -You pulled this argument into the "race" aspect before about competitive WF guilds but those players have easily have the couple million gold required to purchase those BoE's ready ahead of time without spending $$$ on tokens.

    If the definition didn't intend to include all players who didn't spend money the "who don't spend any money" is redundant, because it would then be about money granting power in general. It does include it though, so to qualify this definition we assume it covers all non spenders.
    Sorry, but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend is way off - guilds have been known to "borrow" tens of millions of gold to purchase boes. They do tend to have substantial gold reserves from selling carries etc, but even that is often not enough, as people have learned they will pay pretty much anything for those items.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Good on you.

    It might put someone at an unfair advantage vs you that they ding before you, not true for this player though. Also, the way of WoW's boost. Ain't no buying your way to max level until the expansion is old, and then you're still not possibly getting any advantages over other players that those players cannot achieve on their own and without paying extra.

    Sorry.
    You are confusing what they purchased with something they didnt - they didnt pay for gear at endgame, they didnt pay to instantly clear the raids - they paid to skip the leveling content, and in that context, in the context of the item purchased, it absolutely does give them an advantage. Thats like argueing that starting 1m from the finish line in a 100m sprint is not an advantage because it wont allow them to win the weightlifting competition.

    You seem to be working off a definition of P2W where the items for sale on the shop are ONLY available on the shop - this is an example of P2W, but not the definition. Even with the example you linked, it says the items in question, considered an extreme example of P2W, could still be earned in game by playing the game......
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-09-08 at 10:50 PM.
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  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sorry, but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend is way off - guilds have been known to "borrow" tens of millions of gold to purchase boes. They do tend to have substantial gold reserves from selling carries etc, but even that is often not enough, as people have learned they will pay pretty much anything for those items.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are confusing what they purchased with something they didnt - they didnt pay for gear at endgame, they didnt pay to instantly clear the raids - they paid to skip the leveling content, and in that context, in the context of the item purchased, it absolutely does give them an advantage. Thats like argueing that starting 1m from the finish line in a 100m sprint is not an advantage because it wont allow them to win the weightlifting competition.
    Ok, so they have the "advantage" of paying to skip to max level 3 patches post-release for 60 euro whereas I can level 20+ characters to 60 in that time without spending a dime of extra money and be far ahead in all kinds of character progression and power.

    Yep, advantage. I'm so jealous. Oh, and there's also getting a free boost to max level with purchase of a new expansion.

    P2W at its most egregious, no doubt!...

    By any and all definitions and examples I've read about "significant advantages vs players that don't pay extra", it doesn't qualify. Doesn't matter how much you think that you've figured it all out on your own. That is all I've got to say on the matter.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2021-09-08 at 10:53 PM.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    I for damn sure purchased the story skip for the base game to catch up to my buddies because I had more fun spamming dungeons and that tower thing than that god forsaken dog shit main story quest. I literally never would have touched the game with my friends and had the fun I did in the expansions without it. And I definitely remember them having level boots too.


    So the best you can say here is they're both equally bad in the P2W. And I agree with the other guy. It's a small advantage maybe but not really much of one. In today's world I don't have time to ditch school only to have a bounty hunter kill me at the trainer and cost me 8 hours of grinding to regrind that same 8 hours that evening. And other than the FF14 instance where I absolutely loathed the quests I'll happily grind out and not give two licks of a shit if anyone wants to pay for a boost. Hell the Shadowlands expect boost helped my buddy find his new favorite class. He was struggling as a SP since cata but decided to try a mage with his boost. Having a lot more fun and all his current "power" he earned by playing M plus.
    So you agree it is P2W, just not a particularly "bad" example of P2W?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Ok, so they have the "advantage" of paying to skip to max level 3 patches post-release for 60 euro whereas I can level 20+ characters to 60 in that time without spending a dime of extra money and be far ahead in all kinds of character progression and power.

    Yep, advantage. I'm so jealous. Oh, and there's also getting a free boost to max level with purchase of a new expansion.

    P2W at its most egregious, no doubt!
    You can levle 20+ characters to max level instantly? From level 1?
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  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you agree it is P2W, just not a particularly "bad" example of P2W?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can levle 20+ characters to max level instantly? From level 1?
    "In that time", now who's "willfully getting it wrong"?

    By the time Joe McAdvantage can actually buy a max level boost, which doesn't unlock until THE END OF AN EXPANSION, I've gotten 20+ characters to max level without paying a dime extra.

    There, clarified and all. There are no P2W elements in WoW, not unless one REALLY wants to misrepresent facts to believe so.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    "In that time", now who's "willfully getting it wrong"?

    By the time Joe McAdvantage can actually buy a max level boost, which doesn't unlock until THE END OF AN EXPANSION, I've gotten 20+ characters to max level without paying a dime extra.

    There, clarified and all. There are no P2W elements in WoW, not unless one REALLY wants to misrepresent facts to believe so.
    In what time? This doesnt make ANY sense at all - why did you give yourself such a huge time advantage here? Why are you suggesting that if you both started at levle 1, you would have 20+ max levle toons before someone who boosted would manage to level one? Im not willfully getting anything wrong, your example makes absolutely no sense at all.
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  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    I for damn sure purchased the story skip for the base game to catch up to my buddies because I had more fun spamming dungeons and that tower thing than that god forsaken dog shit main story quest. I literally never would have touched the game with my friends and had the fun I did in the expansions without it. And I definitely remember them having level boots too.


    So the best you can say here is they're both equally bad in the P2W. And I agree with the other guy. It's a small advantage maybe but not really much of one. In today's world I don't have time to ditch school only to have a bounty hunter kill me at the trainer and cost me 8 hours of grinding to regrind that same 8 hours that evening. And other than the FF14 instance where I absolutely loathed the quests I'll happily grind out and not give two licks of a shit if anyone wants to pay for a boost. Hell the Shadowlands expect boost helped my buddy find his new favorite class. He was struggling as a SP since cata but decided to try a mage with his boost. Having a lot more fun and all his current "power" he earned by playing M plus.
    Yeah, the fair would be to say that both are equally benign, it's just players without a clue wanting to call one or the other P2W as long as they're not happy with the game.

    WoW's store is cosmetic/character services. The max level boost isn't available at the start of an expansion. The token can be used by players for gold to pay other players for services, but it won't really result in more power over someone getting there on their own.

    Overall, it's just X people arguing semantics because they cannot properly comprehend that what they're set on disliking and getting outraged over, isn't actually egregious, not even by the vaguest definition of the term "P2W"...

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Yeah, the fair would be to say that both are equally benign, it's just players without a clue wanting to call one or the other P2W as long as they're not happy with the game.

    WoW's store is cosmetic/character services. The max level boost isn't available at the start of an expansion. The token can be used by players for gold to pay other players for services, but it won't really result in more power over someone getting there on their own.

    Overall, it's just X people arguing semantics because they cannot properly comprehend that what they're set on disliking and getting outraged over, isn't actually egregious, not even by the vaguest definition of the term "P2W"...
    Im not sure where this idea comes from that there is some Game vs Game arguement being presented here - I have stated that I consider any paid service that gives you an advantage over others is P2W - I am the one saying it is a scale, from really egregious examples (mostly found in mobile games) to very minor examples (the $1.99 5% xp boost i mentioned earlier), but they are still examples of P2W features.

    The other argument im making is that for a GAME (not a feature) to be considered a P2W game, it needs to be on the pointy end of that scale - i believe a game can have some P2W features without the game itself being considered P2W. That discussion involves things like payment model. For example, it is commonly accepted that a F2P game aboslutely will contain certain P2W features - not all, but the vast majority will. Its when the business model includes not just a box price, but also a subscription, and then they start adding a lot of P2W features that people really start raising their eyebrows and thinking "well this is a bit shit".

    I also firmly believe that some P2W features can be really good for a game - the TBC skip in classic is a prime example. I consider that P2W without a doubt in my mind, but when discussing the issue with some who claimed it wasnt, they seemed to automatically asume i considered this feature bad - this is not correct. I think it was a great way to get more people into the game, which is a good thing.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-09-08 at 11:19 PM.
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  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you agree it is P2W, just not a particularly "bad" example of P2W?

    I personally don't feel it's P2W. Or certainly not a significant form of it to bother anyone. But I can at least see why those may feel it is. What I don't get is the strong opposition to it. Especially in a game this old where let's not pretend that the "current" expansion is anything but the only one that matters for 99% of player activities.

    It's just so minor that a lot of people in this thread raging it about it might as well be crying because blizz lightly brushing against your shoulder acting like they were violently sexually assaulted. It's just so minor even if I felt it was P2W it's nothing to piss yourself with rage over because it at best saves you something that can be done in a couple hours at this time in the game in my opinion. I just honestly give so little of a shit about it I don't even care whether you consider it P2W or not.

    As I mentioned I'd never waste my money on a WoW skip. I have more fun leveling my alts. But a game like FF14 where my buddies started 40 lvls ahead of me and doing the MSQ for the base game while assuring me the expansions got better? I'm glad I did it because if I did I wouldn't have wasted any time with that game past 30.


    Now WoW time for gold is trickier. Because I've done that 90% of the time I played even before the tokens came out. Only difference was I gave my buddies gold and they gave me game time. They were older and had jobs/kids so they couldn't grind all day like I was as a no life teen or college student. I even bought a few video games from a buddy who gifted them to me off steam and paid for a lot of my friends game time too because I was good at making gold and they weren't and we were all broke as a joke. I've been selling shit since ZA bear mounts back in the day, mim's head, and GDKP runs where we frequently took 5-8 people who were shitters with money to bid on gear. I'm just not bothered by it. Basically all they did was take something that already existed and corner out the scammers who stole people's accounts and info both after selling to them and so they could steal your stuff to sell. I wasn't bothered much by it before and the addition of the token cut out a shitty activity I actually did hate.

    What I find most funny is I see people raging about WoW's evil p2w cash shop but slupring FF14's balls like they don't have essentially the exact, arguing worse/more expensive, thing.


    But I will concede that gold can at least buy gear a definite power increase. But this advantage is usually fleeting and given the dozens of other ways gearing has gotten easier/improved recently as a dirty casual I just don't care.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
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  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sorry, but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend is way off - guilds have been known to "borrow" tens of millions of gold to purchase boes. They do tend to have substantial gold reserves from selling carries etc, but even that is often not enough, as people have learned they will pay pretty much anything for those items.
    Guilds do borrow lots of gold and pay it off after, I probably have better connections with the communities they work with then you do. You can also preemptively earn gold to buy your boes. I don't buy tokens and I PROMISE I could buy my Boes week 1 of any mythic raid release. Guilds prefer to back pay their boes because if the gold in centrally controlled they can hand out the BoE's to the people they want as they need to. Some guilds even do contract style agreements with players to run sales where player cuts go to the guild instead of the player once the tier is cleared. I think you underestimate how much gold people can make once farm starts.

    Attacking the "weakest" parts of some one's argument is a good strat btw but dont think it went unnoticed that you went from "No, not a single definition I have found dictates that it MUST be power not obtainable through other means." to "but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend...even that is often not enough"

    If you keep granting points you are gonna run out real fast.

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