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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Guilds do borrow lots of gold and pay it off after, I probably have better connections with the communities they work with then you do. You can also preemptively earn gold to buy your boes. I don't buy tokens and I PROMISE I could buy my Boes week 1 of any mythic raid release. Guilds prefer to back pay their boes because if the gold in centrally controlled they can hand out the BoE's to the people they want as they need to. Some guilds even do contract style agreements with players to run sales where player cuts go to the guild instead of the player once the tier is cleared. I think you underestimate how much gold people can make once farm starts.

    Attacking the "weakest" parts of some one's argument is a good strat btw but dont think it went unnoticed that you went from "No, not a single definition I have found dictates that it MUST be power not obtainable through other means." to "but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend...even that is often not enough"

    If you keep granting points you are gonna run out real fast.
    Those are two entirely different arguments, what on earth are you talking about? Seriously, what are you talkign about? those two statements are not related at all, and dont contradict each other in any way whatsoever.

    I will ignore your baseless assumption about how involved you are with high end raiding compared to me, you believe whatever you want to believe there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    It's just so minor that a lot of people in this thread raging it about it might as well be crying because blizz lightly brushing against your shoulder acting like they were violently sexually assaulted.
    Im not entirely sure thats the example you want to go with right at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You seem to be working off a definition of P2W where the items for sale on the shop are ONLY available on the shop - this is an example of P2W, but not the definition. Even with the example you linked, it says the items in question, considered an extreme example of P2W, could still be earned in game by playing the game......
    I don't agree with this, but let's just use your definition for my question. If this is pay to win, what do you want done about it? Remove the WoW Token? I know a lot of players that don't boost or use it for anything, but pay their subscription cost. Should they be punished because of this?

    Do you ban boosting? If this is the case how do you manage this? Do attempt to ban players that boost? What if my guild's tank quits and we need to gear up another player to take over? Does that boost get marked as we drag their character though M+ and raids?

    What should be done? Should anything be done? Is it hurting your play experience?
    Curoar, Arms Warrior of 15 years.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbydude65 View Post
    I don't agree with this, but let's just use your definition for my question. If this is pay to win, what do you want done about it? Remove the WoW Token? I know a lot of players that don't boost or use it for anything, but pay their subscription cost. Should they be punished because of this?

    Do you ban boosting? If this is the case how do you manage this? Do attempt to ban players that boost? What if my guild's tank quits and we need to gear up another player to take over? Does that boost get marked as we drag their character though M+ and raids?

    What should be done? Should anything be done? Is it hurting your play experience?
    Again, I never even said it was a bad thing, or needed fixing. I even went so far as saying that i consider some P2W features to be GOOD, for individuals, and for the game overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
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  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Those are two entirely different arguments, what on earth are you talking about? Seriously, what are you talkign about? those two statements are not related at all, and dont contradict each other in any way whatsoever.

    I will ignore your baseless assumption about how involved you are with high end raiding compared to me, you believe whatever you want to believe there.
    Yes you made entirely different arguments while dodging the entire point of the post inbetween. If you aren't responding to my points you aren't discussing in good faith. Continue to focus on the offtopic points made though it makes you look good I promise.

    Well I have to assume you agree with the previous discussed definition of P2W since you dodged it. If this is not the case please backtrack and lets talk about it. If you want me to address your points going forward you will have to go back and talk about why you disagree with googles definition of Pay to win and my interpretation of it.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Guilds do borrow lots of gold and pay it off after, I probably have better connections with the communities they work with then you do. You can also preemptively earn gold to buy your boes. I don't buy tokens and I PROMISE I could buy my Boes week 1 of any mythic raid release. Guilds prefer to back pay their boes because if the gold in centrally controlled they can hand out the BoE's to the people they want as they need to. Some guilds even do contract style agreements with players to run sales where player cuts go to the guild instead of the player once the tier is cleared. I think you underestimate how much gold people can make once farm starts.

    Attacking the "weakest" parts of some one's argument is a good strat btw but dont think it went unnoticed that you went from "No, not a single definition I have found dictates that it MUST be power not obtainable through other means." to "but your understanding of just how much gold the top end players spend...even that is often not enough"

    If you keep granting points you are gonna run out real fast.
    I highly doubt any of what you said... it sounds like you are rehashing the speech method have when they admitted to buying gold.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes you made entirely different arguments while dodging the entire point of the post inbetween. If you aren't responding to my points you aren't discussing in good faith. Continue to focus on the offtopic points made though it makes you look good I promise.

    Well I have to assume you agree with the previous discussed definition of P2W since you dodged it. If this is not the case please backtrack and lets talk about it. If you want me to address your points going forward you will have to go back and talk about why you disagree with googles definition of Pay to win and my interpretation of it.
    I dont disagree with any of the definitions i have seen from google, other than when it links to a foum post. I absolutely disagree with your "interpretation" of P2W.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Again, I never even said it was a bad thing, or needed fixing. I even went so far as saying that i consider some P2W features to be GOOD, for individuals, and for the game overall.
    Than stop getting on a forum to argue with people about semantics. You've done literally nothing to advance this conversation besides argue minor details that you don't even care about. What was the end goal here?

    On topic: Transmog like this being a store or subscription exclusive (or in the Yeti case, Blizzcon exclusive) is nothing new. It hasn't led to aggressively new microtransactions in the store, or high quality mounts or armors being only from the store front. We've had plenty of great Weapons, Armors, and mounts over the last 3 expansions that never came from the store.

    I'd need to see more of that transmog (how it looks from behind, how it fits on different races) before I make a judgement about if I want to spend money/gold on it.
    Curoar, Arms Warrior of 15 years.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I highly doubt any of what you said... it sounds like you are rehashing the speech method have when they admitted to buying gold.
    wut? I'm not excusing buying 3rd party gold at all??? Also I don't even know what method speech you are talking about nor do I care. But hey you know its easy to go after credibility when you don't post any of your own You clearly took the time to look me up and if you problem solving skills are stronk you will easily be able to find out I've worked with sales communities before but hey, maybe I'm expecting too much of a fresh account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I dont disagree with any of the definitions i have seen from google, other than when it links to a foum post. I absolutely disagree with your "interpretation" of P2W.
    My link wasn't to a forum post?
    Ok whats wrong with my interpretation. I feel I addressed how it clearly applies to all non-payers. It doesn't say "some of those...". It just uses the blanket "those who don't..."

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    My link wasn't to a forum post?
    Ok whats wrong with my interpretation. I feel I addressed how it clearly applies to all non-payers. It doesn't say "some of those...". It just uses the blanket "those who don't..."
    Where did i say your link was to a foum post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbydude65 View Post
    Than stop getting on a forum to argue with people about semantics. You've done literally nothing to advance this conversation besides argue minor details that you don't even care about. What was the end goal here?
    I thought we were just having a discussion, on a forum used for.....discussions. I wasnt aware that every post needed to be working towards an 'end goal'. I was of the understanding that the conversation WAS the end goal?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How many of them give player power or advantages? I played FF14 for 2 years without even opening the cash shop once - i didnt even know about it for the first year. My point stands - FF14 is known for a lot of things - skimpy outfits, catgirls, story, and flashy spells - i have never once heard it refered to as "that P2W game with the cash shop"
    The motorcycle gives a speed advantage since you don't need most riding maps if any at all, the whale lets your group spam fates quicker since everyone is together on the same mount, and then there are the retainers aka inventory space.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    It never was part of the game, before the wow token.
    Umm, I defo remember boosting people for the ICC mount in Wrath. We had one dude buy several boosts for several of his characters.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    1) buy wow token with $$
    2) sell wow token to make gold
    3) use gold to buy ___ (here is the problem)
    Yep, you cannot buy power from Blizzard
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  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Explain how the advantage relates to other players in a concrete way. How is it gaining an advantage skipping levels/story content vs me who can do it without spending extra money and get the exact same end result just fine.
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd like to answer this question.

    The advantage is ultimately the endgame which most people like to get to, or will eventually get to even if it's not their immediate goal. In an MMORPG the endgame (and potential completion of it) is always the final pit stop.

    A few examples:

    1.) For players at the beginning of a patch or expansion in WoW, getting a boost to get to the final level overall is an advantage over others without the resources and/or care to do so. Getting a spot into a group to do endgame stuff becomes much easier when the pool of players to choose from is smaller than normal at earlier intervals (i.e. being a DPS and trying to get into a guild/raid/dungeon while other up-and-comers are lagging behind). A player leveling slower than the one gaining the advantage ***might*** be better than the one getting the boost, or might not be, who knows? But that one with the advantage will likely get picked over the one a few levels behind simply because he can already fill the seat.

    Or, say you're in a group of friends that have to all get to a certain level to do content. The advantage gained is the group doesn't have to wait for the recipient of said boost to get there; he's already ready. That means more time available to do other stuff (whether that be in-game or outside of it, it's time saved).


    2.) In terms of gear, where groups limit entry into dungeons/raids based on reasons such as ilvl/gear, someone getting boosted to Heroic/Mythic Raid-level gear is going to have a much easier time getting into groups and clearing endgame. Sure, one could do it themselves which is much more rewarding to the person that finds enjoyment in doing it in that manner, but overall the advantage is that the boosted used the means to get there faster than the next person who doesn't have or want to do that.


    In a game where time investment = reward, effective use of time is major. If one could somehow get more out of something without investing equal amounts of time it'd take someone else to obtain, they directly get an advantage over the next person who neither has the time or means of investment to do the same. And where it becomes a bit of pay-to-win is just that: time investment. And as the saying goes, time is money.

    If someone who had more money than time to play could buy a full Mythic raid clear and gear, his unique advantage is that he didn't have to do what you did to get to the same goal you're trying to achieve. Is it more fulfilling to do it yourself? Personally yes. However, an advantage is an advantage and without assuming other variables between two players (one that purchased their way vs. one that did the hard work), the guy who paid has the advantage (even if the end result is the same).

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Umm, I defo remember boosting people for the ICC mount in Wrath. We had one dude buy several boosts for several of his characters.
    Sure, theres always been people who have bought boosts. I remember running people in the old classic dungeons, mostly as favours but sometimes I would get a low amount of gold for each run.

    Back then, if you wanted to buy gold, you took a risk of having your account banned. Most people didnt want to take that risk, so they either earned the gold in-game or didnt bother with it. Since not everyone bothered farming gold, boosting wasnt that big of a deal. That meant a healtier pool of players who actually wanted to do raids & dungeons to earn stuff, instead of like now were alot of people just boosts-->get mount--> never join raid/dungeon again.

    I also had friends back in vanilla, bc, wotlk, cata who would spend most of theyre time farming gold. They either sucked at playing the game(in raiding) or didnt bother getting good so at times they just bought a carry. Cause they had obsene amount of gold earned in game. Thats the difference here really - the people that got boosted back in the day atleast earned that gold by playing the game.

    The boosting sales in wow has reached an all time high and theres no denying it. The token certainly helps with this, no one can deny it.

    I bet this is how it goes: Blizzard have token for sale. Blizzard puts in a cool AOTC mount for those that kill last boss. Player(s) see the awesome mount. Figures - why not just pay 20 dollars so I can get that mount? Tada, another cash shop mount without it being a cash shop mount.

    Atleast cash shop mounts are honest in the way we all know they are a cash shop mount. Whos to say most people running around on AOTC mounts didnt just buy them? AOTC means literally nothing.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Sure, theres always been people who have bought boosts. I remember running people in the old classic dungeons, mostly as favours but sometimes I would get a low amount of gold for each run.

    Back then, if you wanted to buy gold, you took a risk of having your account banned. Most people didnt want to take that risk, so they either earned the gold in-game or didnt bother with it. Since not everyone bothered farming gold, boosting wasnt that big of a deal. That meant a healtier pool of players who actually wanted to do raids & dungeons to earn stuff, instead of like now were alot of people just boosts-->get mount--> never join raid/dungeon again.

    I also had friends back in vanilla, bc, wotlk, cata who would spend most of theyre time farming gold. They either sucked at playing the game(in raiding) or didnt bother getting good so at times they just bought a carry. Cause they had obsene amount of gold earned in game. Thats the difference here really - the people that got boosted back in the day atleast earned that gold by playing the game.

    The boosting sales in wow has reached an all time high and theres no denying it. The token certainly helps with this, no one can deny it.

    I bet this is how it goes: Blizzard have token for sale. Blizzard puts in a cool AOTC mount for those that kill last boss. Player(s) see the awesome mount. Figures - why not just pay 20 dollars so I can get that mount? Tada, another cash shop mount without it being a cash shop mount.

    Atleast cash shop mounts are honest in the way we all know they are a cash shop mount. Whos to say most people running around on AOTC mounts didnt just buy them? AOTC means literally nothing.
    y'all do obscene mental gymnastics to call that p2w.

    Unless blizzard offers player power from their cash shop, it aint p2w.
    Buying currency to trade with other players is not p2w, not in the slightest.
    A boost to max level -10 aint p2w either because still having to level 10 levels aint winning a damn thing.

  16. #576
    The Lightbringer Strawberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post


    The datamined picture in question, the "New" is the one on the bottom left with Sparkle Pony
    Erm, if they keep pumping out paid transmog that looks like that, our money is safe :-)

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    y'all do obscene mental gymnastics to call that p2w.

    Unless blizzard offers player power from their cash shop, it aint p2w.
    Buying currency to trade with other players is not p2w, not in the slightest.
    A boost to max level -10 aint p2w either because still having to level 10 levels aint winning a damn thing.
    But it is. Boosting to 50 is in a way p2w cause you drop the time investment around leveling. If player A levels from 1 & player B buy boost, who reaches level cap quickets? (If we assume they play the same amount).

    Getting titles, gear & mounts via boosting is also p2w. Gear makes your character stronger, getting titles/mounts are supposed to be prestigous and mean something in the game.

    As it is now, nothing really matters. The only thing left is people that run around in mage tower cosmetic gear, cause atleast then you know those people have actually gone and done it themself. Everything else from dungeons & raids means jack shit cause its something alot of people buy to obtain.

    I used to think of people with cool titles/mounts that "Yeah, they are good players. Good on them!". Now I just shrug it all of since theres a fair chance he just bought a boost.

    It invalidates the whole game.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    But it is. Boosting to 50 is in a way p2w cause you drop the time investment around leveling. If player A levels from 1 & player B buy boost, who reaches level cap quickets? (If we assume they play the same amount).

    Getting titles, gear & mounts via boosting is also p2w. Gear makes your character stronger, getting titles/mounts are supposed to be prestigous and mean something in the game.

    As it is now, nothing really matters. The only thing left is people that run around in mage tower cosmetic gear, cause atleast then you know those people have actually gone and done it themself. Everything else from dungeons & raids means jack shit cause its something alot of people buy to obtain.

    I used to think of people with cool titles/mounts that "Yeah, they are good players. Good on them!". Now I just shrug it all of since theres a fair chance he just bought a boost.

    It invalidates the whole game.
    Yeah, the WoW token is essentially P2W with a bunch of other trickle-down side effects that aren't great for the game. I know people who just straight up buy WoW tokens for gold, then buy a CE carry and mythic gear runs after spending hundreds of dollars. While some would say that people buying runs/gear with gold has always been a thing, that's true... but the huge difference is that the only legal way to do it was playing the game and earning gold to buy such things. You could buy gold from websites, but not only is that high risk for the person but also a violation of ToS. The WoW token makes the activity of RMT gold buying legal, as long as you go through Blizz so they get a cut of the profits.

    I've always thought the WoW token system should've been at most one-way, where you dump your in-game gold for game time or B.net balance. That way, you can reduce the gold volume in the game potentially while rewarding your loyal customers with perks. Instead, we're pumping the game full of more gold (as if that wasn't a problem since WoD mission tables) to where it's basically extreme gold inflation over time. You can tell just by the gold costs of a WoW token, as they're easily at least 10 times higher in gold price since the end of WoD.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2021-09-09 at 09:18 AM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Yeah, the WoW token is essentially P2W with a bunch of other trickle-down side effects that aren't great for the game. I know people who just straight up buy WoW tokens for gold, then buy a CE carry and mythic gear runs after spending hundreds of dollars. While some would say that people buying runs/gear with gold has always been a thing, that's true... but the huge difference is that the only legal way to do it was playing the game and earning gold to buy such things. You could buy gold from websites, but not only is that high risk for the person but also a violation of ToS. The WoW token makes the activity of RMT gold buying legal, as long as you go through Blizz so they get a cut of the profits.

    I've always thought the WoW token system should've been at most one-way, where you dump your in-game gold for game time or B.net balance. That way, you can reduce the gold volume in the game potentially while rewarding your loyal customers with perks. Instead, we're pumping the game full of more gold (as if that wasn't a problem since WoD mission tables) to where it's basically extreme gold inflation over time. You can tell just by the gold costs of a WoW token, as they're easily at least 10 times higher in gold price since the end of WoD.
    if you actually think the people that buy ce carries (25 million rn btw) are the people buying tokens, I have a bridge to sell you.
    the people who have millions of gold *do not buy tokens*

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    But it is. Boosting to 50 is in a way p2w cause you drop the time investment around leveling. If player A levels from 1 & player B buy boost, who reaches level cap quickets? (If we assume they play the same amount).

    Getting titles, gear & mounts via boosting is also p2w. Gear makes your character stronger, getting titles/mounts are supposed to be prestigous and mean something in the game.

    As it is now, nothing really matters. The only thing left is people that run around in mage tower cosmetic gear, cause atleast then you know those people have actually gone and done it themself. Everything else from dungeons & raids means jack shit cause its something alot of people buy to obtain.

    I used to think of people with cool titles/mounts that "Yeah, they are good players. Good on them!". Now I just shrug it all of since theres a fair chance he just bought a boost.

    It invalidates the whole game.
    yeah no, a shortcut that blizzard gave you free to catch up with friends is paying to win? in what world? you don't get any bonuses that people that didn't pay get, you *still have to level*

    yes its a convenience shortcut, but so are BoE and RaF and those aren't p2w either.

    P2W would be buying magic find for increased drop rate % or straight up buying gear FROM BLIZZARD which is not possible in any form or fashion.
    cosmetics are just that, cosmetics. not winning.

    There isn't, nor will there ever be any player power for sale from the bnet shop. ffs.

    like, how the fuck is trading/buying a service in a game with an economy paying to win? lmfao, you kids here are downright delusional.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway this thread will always be full to the brim with
    1) salty poor people
    2) people with less than a basic understanding of the english language
    3) people with addiction problems
    4) jilted lovers
    Last edited by Kehego; 2021-09-09 at 10:57 AM.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    if you actually think the people that buy ce carries (25 million rn btw) are the people buying tokens, I have a bridge to sell you.
    the people who have millions of gold *do not buy tokens*

    - - - Updated - - -



    yeah no, a shortcut that blizzard gave you free to catch up with friends is paying to win? in what world? you don't get any bonuses that people that didn't pay get, you *still have to level*

    yes its a convenience shortcut, but so are BoE and RaF and those aren't p2w either.

    P2W would be buying magic find for increased drop rate % or straight up buying gear FROM BLIZZARD which is not possible in any form or fashion.
    cosmetics are just that, cosmetics. not winning.

    There isn't, nor will there ever be any player power for sale from the bnet shop. ffs.

    like, how the fuck is trading/buying a service in a game with an economy paying to win? lmfao, you kids here are downright delusional.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway this thread will always be full to the brim with
    1) salty poor people
    2) people with less than a basic understanding of the english language
    3) people with addiction problems
    4) jilted lovers
    I dont understand why you wont understand the concept of *Buy token-->Sell token-->get gold-->use gold on carries/boost--> get gear, rank, mount, title.* No, its not stuff you buy on the Blizz store directly, but its not far off. Its perfectly done by Blizzard cause they clearly have enough people defending it who see no issue with it.

    Your example of the 25 mill price is like the highest priced thing to buy atm, and that will get cheaper over time. Most stuff is rather "cheap" though.
    Blizzard will never need to put stuff like this on the store cause they already do with the token, in a not-so obvious way.

    If Blizzard just outright put gear, titles & mounts on the store you would probably be upset. But not when they do it with the token. The token is there to be used for this, not to buy a few flasks or enchants. The sole reason to use tokens on are high prices mounts(high price because of the token) and so people can buy boosts. They will never say it, but thats how it work.

    Dunno if your last four points was directed at me but I would have you know im not "poor" either ingame or RL. I have the gold I need for ingame purposes, not to waste on cheap carries. Im also decent enough in english to understand you are a true Blizzard chill that will defend them for this sleasy business that ruins the game. The real people with addiction problems are probably the ones spending the most money on the token - are you one of them?
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2021-09-09 at 12:09 PM.

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