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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    How does the graph you've posted reinforce that position? It in fact speaks against it.
    If they were manipulating tokens wouldn't it have made sense that there'd be a massive increase in their price after the Brutosaur's removal was announced? Instead it went down. Maybe the intern in charge of fucking with token prices was on vacation, eh?

  2. #602
    Legendary! SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    whoa whoa whoa, we do not criticize player created issues on here. are you mad?? has that copium gone to your brain?
    Apologies... maybe I have been hitting it a little too hard lately...

    Everything wrong with World of Warcraft, including Burning Crusade Classic, is Blizzard's fault because they're attempting to manipulate MAUs for investors. Players are never at fault, ever.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The boosting sales in wow has reached an all time high and theres no denying it.
    gee i wonder why there is more boosting now when you can run the same ride MULTIPLE times, compared to times when you could run it once...
    really a mystery... for people after lobotomy

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If they were manipulating tokens wouldn't it have made sense that there'd be a massive increase in their price after the Brutosaur's removal was announced? Instead it went down. Maybe the intern in charge of fucking with token prices was on vacation, eh?
    If the token-to-gold converstion rate wasn't dictated artificially, the token price would've gone way down. This is your biggest misconception and that is that the token price would have to be much higher if it was to be proof for manipulation. It is actually the opposite.

    They're in truth keeping it artificially high as it already is because the current price is too high for the level of new gold that players are spawning into the virtual WoW economy. Massive amounts of gold have been dumped by players and there are far fewer and much less effective ways to create new gold. If they weren't manipulating it, the token would give much less gold that it does right now, but they're keeping it as artificially high as it is right now because it incentivizes the purchase of tokens as the most effective way for the average player to quickly make gold.

    PS This is why the graph you've posted is proof that WoW token-to-gold exchange rates are dictated artificially.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 04:43 PM.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    "WOW TOKEN SELLER BUYING GEAR IS BAD BUT ITS OK THAT DUDE PLAYED THE AH BUYS HIS GEAR FROM MYTHIC RAIDERS BECAUSE HE PUT THE EFFORT IN!"
    ...yes?

    Being able to play the AH to make enough to pay off a booster isn't something everyone can do, because if they could, they would do it, but that requires knowledge of the game, patience and willingless to take on risks (because you can also lose gold while playing the AH).

    It's pretty simple, if it were actually easy, everyone would do it because the benefits of doing it successfully are quite substantial, but most people don't do it because they lack one of all the above mentioned qualities.
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    You see folks the main issue here is Boosting. That is the player created problem that people are refusing to offer *ANY* form of fix for. Pulling the WoW token is not a fix for the boosting problem, as someone can play AH or grind their ass off can buy gear and boosts and that's somehow PERFECTLY FINE.
    No, it's not.
    The basic principle of someone providing a service within the game for a virtual currency are completely legitimate, that's why it has been allowed since the dawn of the game, but that was allowed under the assumption that being able to buy gold for real money cannot be done with legitimate means.
    The WoW Token broke that, you can now acquire huge sums of gold without investing nothing but real money into the game without violating the ToS.

    Previously, people had to, at the very least, risk their entire account in order to buy gold, that is off the table now, the only risk that remains is being scammed by the boosters, but that is unlikely as boosting sites that scam their customers don't stick around for very long.
    But even there you will not lose your account, but simply your gold.

    Boosting has grown so large because people can now easily acquire huge sums of gold, boosting in itself isn't the problem, it's the scale it has taken on, that growth was caused by the WoW Token.

    If someone wants to farm Millions of gold by just grinding it, go ahead, i respect people that put that much time into and should able to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...yes?

    Being able to play the AH to make enough to pay off a booster isn't something everyone can do, because if they could, they would do it, but that requires knowledge of the game, patience and willingless to take on risks (because you can also lose gold while playing the AH).

    It's pretty simple, if it were actually easy, everyone would do it because the benefits of doing it successfully are quite substantial, but most people don't do it because they lack one of all the above mentioned qualities.

    No, it's not.
    The basic principle of someone providing a service within the game for a virtual currency are completely legitimate, that's why it has been allowed since the dawn of the game, but that was allowed under the assumption that being able to buy gold for real money cannot be done with legitimate means.
    The WoW Token broke that, you can now acquire huge sums of gold without investing nothing but real money into the game without violating the ToS.

    Previously, people had to, at the very least, risk their entire account in order to buy gold, that is off the table now, the only risk that remains is being scammed by the boosters, but that is unlikely as boosting sites that scam their customers don't stick around for very long.
    But even there you will not lose your account, but simply your gold.

    Boosting has grown so large because people can now easily acquire huge sums of gold, boosting in itself isn't the problem, it's the scale it has taken on, that growth was caused by the WoW Token.

    If someone wants to farm Millions of gold by just grinding it, go ahead, i respect people that put that much time into and should able to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
    you're forgetting the 2 expansions of free gold that gave people *several* goldcaps huh?

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    you're forgetting the 2 expansions of free gold that gave people *several* goldcaps huh?
    Prices of a service are naturally affected by inflation and "free gold" causes inflation.
    In other words, the prices of the boosts will just adjust themselves to a point where less people can afford them.

    The only things severly affected by this are goldsink items, as those have a fixed price and become much easier to grab.
    The Tundra Mammoth or Expedition Yak were relatively prestigeous in their respective expansions, nowadays both are a total joke.

    Like really, that's just basic economics.

    Disregarding the army of alts that had to be managed on a daily basis also adds up over time, that's also hours of gameplay that have to be done in order to acquire that sum of gold.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What you said is completely correct, but the situation in the game is actually different. At no point in time, for the past 3-4 expansions, has it been as time consuming as it is now for the majority of the players to make much less gold than they could in the past, while the token price has seen a fivefold increase in token-to-gold exchange rates over the same period.

    Given that the biggest goldsink to date was active over the same period of time and that the BMAH serves as a goldsink on its own, the token price should've decreased to the end-of-Wod/start-of-Legion levels. In other words, I firmly believe that the current WoW token price is kept artificially high because the token-to-gold converstion rate was much lower at a time when players could make gold much easier.
    eeeh... not necesarily, price of token is based on supply and demand, which does not depend completely on amount of gold or dificulty of gold farming, actualy more people getting gold easier might increase price of token, if the supply (amount of people willing to sell token) is getting lower faster than demand (amount of people wanting to buy token)

  9. #609
    WoW cash shop is pretty tame compared to many other games on the market these days. I think a lot of WoW players and haters are just stuck in the past. It's not the 80's or 90's anymore and this is where gaming is now, love it or hate it.
    At least with WoW I can just use my gold that the game has been raining down on me since WoD. I have like 220 Blizz Bucks right now and it barely dented my hoard of treasures even a dragon would be jealous of.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Prices of a service are naturally affected by inflation and "free gold" causes inflation.
    In other words, the prices of the boosts will just adjust themselves to a point where less people can afford them.

    The only things severly affected by this are goldsink items, as those have a fixed price and become much easier to grab.
    The Tundra Mammoth or Expedition Yak were relatively prestigeous in their respective expansions, nowadays both are a total joke.

    Like really, that's just basic economics.

    Disregarding the army of alts that had to be managed on a daily basis also adds up over time, that's also hours of gameplay that have to be done in order to acquire that sum of gold.
    Boost prices have been the same for years
    also, again, token buyers aren't the people buying boosts en masse. Tokens, if anything, make gold easier to move from server to server, but they play a far lesser role in the economy than you give it credit for.

    And, fwiw, boost prices have been trending downwards for M+ for months.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    They're in truth keeping it artificially high as it already is because the current price is too high for the level of new gold that players are spawning into the virtual WoW economy.
    i disagree, bcs its not in blizzards interest to keep the token price high, it would lead to less people willing to buy token, so less money to them...
    honestly, if they wanted to manipulate the price in any direction instead of keeping it at supply/demand equilibrium it would most likely only decrease the token sales...

    people have wild conspiracy theories how blizz is manipulating the token price, to increase their revenue, but its almost certain keeping it at its "natural" value is the highest revenue for them...

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    If the token-to-gold converstion rate wasn't dictated artificially, the token price would've gone way down. This is your biggest misconception and that is that the token price would have to be much higher if it was to be proof for manipulation. It is actually the opposite.

    They're in truth keeping it artificially high as it already is because the current price is too high for the level of new gold that players are spawning into the virtual WoW economy. Massive amounts of gold have been dumped by players and there are far fewer and much less effective ways to create new gold. If they weren't manipulating it, the token would give much less gold that it does right now, but they're keeping it as artificially high as it is right now because it incentivizes the purchase of tokens as the most effective way for the average player to quickly make gold.

    PS This is why the graph you've posted is proof that WoW token-to-gold exchange rates are dictated artificially.
    So instead of simple supply and demand dictating the price, it's actually Blizzard fucking with everything behind the scenes because they want to make gold artificially more difficult to obtain so they can reap the benefits of tokens... and anybody else who argues otherwise is doing so because "that's what they'd want you to think."

    Yeah. This isn't a conspiracy theory in any way shape or form. Like I said in my first reply to you -- you see the strings that control the universe. We're playing Checkers while you play 5D Chess.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-09-09 at 05:10 PM.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So instead of simple supply and demand dictating the price, it's actually Blizzard fucking with everything behind the scenes because they want to make gold artificially more difficult to obtain so they can reap the benefits of tokens... and anybody else who argues otherwise is doing so because "that's what they'd want you to think."
    This is exactly how it is. Your graph is evidence for this, not the opposite. The token-to-gold conversion rate should, by all accountable means, be slumping towards end-of-WoD/start-of-Legion levels. They're profiting a lot from this, it is a sound business plan and I'm not giving it any negative connotation. They've pulled off a sound business plan here.

    In fact, the WoW token-to-gold conversion rates should be at risk of being lower than they were at the end of WoD as we move towards the end of Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses
    Yeah. This isn't a conspiracy theory in any way shape or form. Like I said in my first reply to you -- you see the string that control the universe. We're playing Checkers while you play 5D Chess.
    It isn't a conspiracy theory because all the trends are available for you to piece together. It is a normal business decision and they've executed it superbly. It is beyond me why you think that this is a complex "5D chessplay".
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 05:10 PM.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Boost prices have been the same for years
    aha...so they remain the same but you also point out that the prices for a given boosting price are dropping?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    And, fwiw, boost prices have been trending downwards for M+ for months.
    Which, you know, could be caused by
    (1) Less buyers (because less players means less buyers)
    (2) People use different services (PvP boosts; Raids)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Tokens, if anything, make gold easier to move from server to server, but they play a far lesser role in the economy than you give it credit for.
    Considering they are the easiest way for a large group of people to acquire gold, i think that's wishful thinking on your part.

    Frankly, passive gold income hasn't been that amazing since WoD and it's also not very likely that a lot of people are drawing upon gold reserves from an expansion that ended 5 years ago.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i disagree, bcs its not in blizzards interest to keep the token price high, it would lead to less people willing to buy token, so less money to them...
    honestly, if they wanted to manipulate the price in any direction instead of keeping it at supply/demand equilibrium it would most likely only decrease the token sales...

    people have wild conspiracy theories how blizz is manipulating the token price, to increase their revenue, but its almost certain keeping it at its "natural" value is the highest revenue for them...
    The current level of gold that you get for buying a WoW token is already too high to begin with. We don't have to talk about them making it higher becausae it is already too high. The current price is already too high for the amount of gold players can make in the game.

    They've removed all ways for players to make gold as easily as they did in WoD and Legion, they've introduced massive gold sinks in the meantime and now the WoW token is the most effective way for players to make gold in relation to time invested. This is the crux of the matter.

    If the WoW token-to-gold rate was "natural", then it would've been in freefall since the start of BfA, which is when they've eliminated all forms of easy gold making and introduced the single biggest goldsink in WoW's history.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 05:15 PM.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Honestly who wants this?


    These transmogs are way more visually striking and most likely will offer more particle effects and other enhancements than in game items. Honestly everyone needs to protest this crap before it gets out of control. These are new appearences that can be used for unique events like Mage Tower 2.0 or other game feats of strength.....


    How are people ok with this?
    Just don't buy them. Problem solved. Stop complaining. No one is forcing you to even use the shop. If you can't control yourself from buying stuff that is your problem.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    Just don't buy them. Problem solved. Stop complaining. No one is forcing you to even use the shop. If you can't control yourself from buying stuff that is your problem.
    Truely empanthy and tolerance are the last virtues of a dying society even a virtual one it seems.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    The current level of gold that you get for buying a WoW token is already too high to begin with. We don't have to talk about them making it higher becausae it is already too high. The current price is already too high for the amount of gold players can make in the game.

    They've removed all ways for players to make gold as easily as they did in WoD and Legion, they've introduced massive gold sinks in the meantime and now the WoW token is the most effective way for players to make gold in relation to time invested. This is the crux of the matter.
    that STILL doesnt address the problem - if the price is too high less people will want to buy it, so they will sell less tokens..
    bcs all those massive sinks are non-necesary, so if the token price is higher they just wont buy it, or they will buy gold from someone else, that is still possible without any issues, so less tokens sold and less profit for blizz...

    and people at blizz might be stupid when it comes to design, but they ar not stupid when it comes to money, so they will do whats best for their income - let it naturaly move to equilibrium

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    If the WoW token-to-gold rate was "natural", then it would've been in freefall since the start of BfA, which is when they've eliminated all forms of easy gold making and introduced the single biggest goldsink in WoW's history.
    eh.. just no
    your conspiracy theory (and sorry, but yes it is conspiracy theory as you have nothing behind it, not even economics) is faulty, bcs amount of people willing to buy token will only DECREASE if you keep the price high, which will in turn decrease amount of people buying it from blizz which will decrease their revenue...
    blizz keeping the price artificialy high would be shoting themself into the foot, thats why it makes no sense...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-09-09 at 05:20 PM.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    aha...so they remain the same but you also point out that the prices for a given boosting price are dropping?

    Which, you know, could be caused by
    (1) Less buyers (because less players means less buyers)
    (2) People use different services (PvP boosts; Raids)

    Considering they are the easiest way for a large group of people to acquire gold, i think that's wishful thinking on your part.

    Frankly, passive gold income hasn't been that amazing since WoD and it's also not very likely that a lot of people are drawing upon gold reserves from an expansion that ended 5 years ago.
    I mean I still have millions from WoD, almost everyone in my guild/circle still has their wod gold, too.
    Do you actually play?

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    that STILL doesnt address the problem - if the price is too high less people will want to buy it, so they will sell less tokens..
    I am saying that the amount of gold that you get for a token is kept artificially high; I'm not saying that they are increasing the amount of real money you pay for a token.

    Why would less people buy the WoW token if the amount of gold given was artificially high, which it currently is? One could argue that the equal number of buyers would buy less WoW tokens, but there wouldn't be less buyers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh.. just no
    your conspiracy theory (and sorry, but yes it is conspiracy theory as you have nothing behind it, not even economics) is faulty, bcs amount of people willing to buy token will only DECREASE if you keep the price high, which will in turn decrease amount of people buying it from blizz which will decrease their revenue...
    blizz keeping the price artificialy high would be shoting themself into the foot, thats why it makes no sense...
    Why would the number of players buying the WoW token to get gold in the game decrease, when the current artificially high level of gold that you get for a token is the most effective way to make gold? That is only if you believe that every WoW token that you buy for gold is bought by someone else and not spawned by Blizzard in return for you dumping your gold.

    The most basic aspects of any economy speak in favour of the fact that the WoW token is giving too much gold and that it isn't a "naturally determined" value.

    I'll draw it for you:

    1. Blizzard's WoW token was 35k gold at the end of WoD/start of Legion, when players were making much more gold in the game than they're now;
    2. Blizzard's WoW token is nearing 200k gold in the middle of Shadowlands, when players are making much less gold than they were when it was 35k gold;
    3. Players who see buying WoW tokens as the most effective way for making gold in the shortest amount of time buy a token because Blizzard has removed previously available ingame forms of earning gold;
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 05:28 PM.

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