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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I just want you to know that you're literally confirmation biasing your own headcanon

    WoW economy is as free as one can be, there's literally no intervention by blizzard. Prices are determined by players, be it natural supply/demand or player manipulation.

    Blizzard doesn't set the price of anything outside vendor items, lol
    Natural supply and demand, especially in the hands of a gaming community, would be extremely volatile and we'd witness dips and hikes in the form you'd have previously thought unimaginable, if Blizzard didn't interfere with it. To claim there's no interference on Blizzard's part, while simultaneously looking at how stable it has been, is irrational.

    If Blizzard allowed me to directly buy a token from you for gold or the other way around, while also taking their due out of our transaction and not being the one that provides the token in the first place, then we could talk about supply and demand in the proper sense of a market. This way Blizzard is providing gold whenever someone wants to turn a token in and is also providing a token whenever someone wants to provide gold for it. You're not giving me a token and I'm not giving you gold; Blizzard is doing both to either of us.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 08:34 PM.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Natural supply and demand, especially in the hands of a gaming community, would be extremely volatile and we'd witness dips and hikes in the form you'd have previously thought unimaginable, if Blizzard didn't interfere with it.

    If Blizzard allowed me to directly buy a token from you for gold or the other way around, then we could talk about supply and demand.
    Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.
    its like they just scream and have no idea what they are talking about

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.
    Well, the hourly dip differential would overall lead to a more substantial dip over time. There's only so much an hourly interval can delay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    its like they just scream and have no idea what they are talking about
    Now that's an exaggeration of the situation, but that's okay. Your post's contribution is duly noted lol

    I've had a lot of fun thanks to the WoW token and it made it possible to make new friends and play the game in ways I previously never imagined would be suitable. I certainly hope it stays the way it is. I simply refuse to blindly believe that the WoW token's value in gold is a completely self-regulating mechanism with no interference from Blizzard that works on "supply and demand", when the historic trends available point to the contrary.

    In fact, the contrary is simply the wisest business decision and looking at Blizzards reported profits, I can only say that they certainly are making profitable decisions.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 08:43 PM.

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Well, the hourly dip differential would overall lead to a more substantial dip over time. There's only so much an hourly interval can delay.
    ...which is exactly what happens. Turns out, when left to its own devices the market mostly stays about the same. Wonder why that is...
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  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ...which is exactly what happens. Turns out, when left to its own devices the market mostly stays about the same. Wonder why that is...
    If Blizzard left the market to its own devices, WoW token-to-gold exchange rates wouldn't be as stable. The WoW token is a Blizzard service, camouflaged as an exchange between two players. We could talk about a market if you and I were directly exchanging the gold and the WoW token, which we're not.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 08:53 PM.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    If Blizzard left the market to its own devices, WoW token-to-gold exchange rates wouldn't be as stable. The WoW token is a Blizzard service, camouflaged as an exchange between two players. We could talk about a market if you and I were directly exchanging the gold and the WoW token, which we're not.
    Until you have proof otherwise this is conjecture. (And bullshit conjecture at that, might I add.)
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  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Until you have proof otherwise this is conjecture. (And bullshit conjecture at that, might I add.)
    There is no proof that would make you or me believe to the contrary. The historic trend of the gold exchange ratio argues that this is the case. Have you ever exchanged a WoW token with a player?

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    There is no proof that would make you or me believe to the contrary. The historic trend of the gold exchange ratio argues that this is the case. Have you ever exchanged a WoW token with a player?
    Ah, there we go. We go back to my post from earlier then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Buddy, the absence of proof is not proof.
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  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Ah, there we go. We go back to my post from earlier then:
    My "proof" are verifiable trends, the only thing we can use to back our positions up. Your proof is "It is a conspiracy" and blind belief that Blizzard is not artificially managing WoW token-to-gold exchange rates.

    You can't talk about supply and demand if you don't know who is demanding, who is supplying and how much is being demanded, then say that the worth of what is demanded and supplied is clearly legit and natural. That is why you take the graph of the historic exchange rates and realize that Blizzard's running a nigh perfect system that is supposed to run on its own, while every variable affecting said system is on a rampage every now and then.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 09:05 PM.

  11. #671
    What is all this talk about gold being harder to make than Legion in here? I am making ~2k a day from adventure table per a character right now (between getting 3-5 350 gold quests and augment runes). Especially since 9.1 dropped and I can go to Korthia once every 2 weeks to farm 2k anima in 30-40 minutes it is pretty easy to keep 5 characters going, and honestly if I needed gold could have more rolling.

    Add in you can send for rep/do daily callings and you get another 400g a day and every 10k rep 3k gold, which can easily be at least once a week for another 400gold daily. No not the afk levels of WoD easy gold, but pretty comparable to Legion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So I don't get to define words, but everyone else does. How ironic.
    I didn't say that, no one does, join my team Arkanon

    team P2W-Means-What-You-Say-It-Means-But-Only-For-You-Not-Everyone

    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  13. #673
    This is like the sub count debate all over again - people with a few random crumbs claiming they know the exact recipe for a cake. Both sides are as guilty of this as the other - no hate from me towards either side, but its clear there is a lot of bias being shown.

    I have said it a couple of times, but I remember before the token was announced that Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value. I have also said I might be totally misremembering this, I remember it because there was a lot of drama, so either I made that up, they changed their mind, or we all just forgot about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    My "proof" are verifiable trends, the only thing we can use to back our positions up. Your proof is "It is a conspiracy" and blind belief that Blizzard is not artificially managing WoW token-to-gold exchange rates.

    You can't talk about supply and demand if you don't know who is demanding, who is supplying and how much is being demanded, then say that the worth of what is demanded and supplied is clearly legit and natural. That is why you take the graph of the historic exchange rates and realize that Blizzard's running a nigh perfect system that is supposed to run on its own, while every variable affecting said system is on a rampage every now and then.
    Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either. As players, we don't know anything about the token other than what Blizzard has told us. And what they have told us is that it's simple supply and demand; until proven otherwise, I see no reason to disbelieve this. You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community. (Blizzard is a business, businesses want money; therefore, Blizzard makes decisions that result in more money even if they're harmful to the playerbase.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is like the sub count debate all over again - people with a few random crumbs claiming they know the exact recipe for a cake. Both sides are as guilty of this as the other - no hate from me towards either side, but its clear there is a lot of bias being shown.

    I have said it a couple of times, but I remember before the token was announced that Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value. I have also said I might be totally misremembering this, I remember it because there was a lot of drama, so either I made that up, they changed their mind, or we all just forgot about it.
    I don't see the point of bringing something up if you can neither source it nor provide any evidence of it being more than a hallucination on your part.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    I didn't say that, no one does, join my team Arkanon

    team P2W-Means-What-You-Say-It-Means-But-Only-For-You-Not-Everyone

    Sadly, P2W only ever seems to be a factor in games someone DOESNT play - Very few people say "yeah man, i LOVE 'ork slayer 4', and its totally P2W!" they all say "nah, its not P2W" or at the very least "nah its not bad, other games are WAY worse!".

    This is why I personally think its better to talk about P2W FEATURES rather than P2W GAMES. I think its perfectly ok for a game to have some P2W features, but its based on a few things - payment model of the game, value for money of the feature (somewhat subjective), if the items are available in game or only store, and how 'powerful' the feature is.

    The example I have used is the boost in classic tbc - and yes, i know some people hated it, but overall i think it was good for the game. It gave those wanting to play TBC but had no interest in Classic a chance to play. Very few other games REQUIRE you to play what are essentially previous titles in the series - imagine if you wanted to play Madden 22 and to do that, you had to complete a career playthrough of Madden 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 before accessing anything from 22. Wanna play D4? No problem at all! just complete D1, 2, and 3 and you can start D4!

    Thats antoher discussion entirely, but I also think its by FAR the biggest turnoff for potential new players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I don't see the point of bringing something up if you can neither source it nor provide any evidence of it being more than a hallucination on your part.
    Do you count as a source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Do you count as a source?
    That's not the same as flat out changing the price like you implied in your post. That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either.
    Neither of us can tell exactly how much gold is injected, that is absolutely correct. However, both of us can tell the at which point in the game's history relatively more gold was spawned into its virtual pool than, say, right now. You can then relate these periods with the historic value of the WoW token in terms of the gold you get for it. This is where the discrepancy and everything that is unnatural in regards to it shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses
    You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community.
    Whichever lens you may believe that I am looking at this, I would only like to add that none of what I wrote in this thread means to present Blizzard in the light that you seem to think I did; on multiple occasions I actually stated the opposite, that it benefits many players. It certainly harms the game in specific ways and that can't be denied either, but it has its benefits and I would like to believe that my review of the entire system in that regard - in regard to its impact on the game - has been balanced.

    Blizzard having control over the token-to-gold exchange rates and the spawning of gold/WoW tokens on player demand is something that I absolutely stand by though. The stability of the value is unnatural and the trends that we can observe in relation to it speak against a spontaneous system. At this point, it is safe to say that we agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-09-09 at 10:25 PM.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either. As players, we don't know anything about the token other than what Blizzard has told us. And what they have told us is that it's simple supply and demand; until proven otherwise, I see no reason to disbelieve this. You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community. (Blizzard is a business, businesses want money; therefore, Blizzard makes decisions that result in more money even if they're harmful to the playerbase.)
    Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That's not the same as flat out changing the price like you implied in your post. That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.
    So I said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value.
    You replied that I made it up, but also said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.
    And then you followed up with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.
    Your stance is very confusing – you actually agree with everything im saying, but present it as though you disagree and im wrong?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.
    This is something i have tried to explain a few times, but you have done a better job than me. When i argue that certain features are P2W, for example, people jump to defend the game and company as though im attacking them, even when i openly say i consider some P2W features to be really positive for the health of the game overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.
    It's harmful insofar as it'd be evidence that they lied to us about the intended purpose of the token. The token was positioned as a tool to help players use virtual currency to exchange for real life goods and services. That's fine, on principle I have no problem with that. The free market will sort itself out. But if the purpose of the token is everything I just mentioned but also to line Blizzard's pockets by using it an unscrupulous manner outside the parameters of what they told us it was intended then yes, I absolutely would have an issue with it. You can say this is a "me issue" and claim that the relationship is mutually beneficial for Blizzard and players but the simple fact remains that Blizzard said {x} and, personally, I'm going to believe {x} regardless of how plausible alternative theories may be.
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