I have a question about the morality of banning gold farmers and wow tolkens.

[MrFawlty]

The fact that you still aren't paying to attention to my argument is what is ridiculous.



False. That assertion is entirely contingent on (at least) three assumptions:

1) That they are putting that gold back into the economy
2) That they would not otherwise have acquired the gold
3) That the person providing the gold would not have spent the gold on anything else

Consider this scenario:

Jim and Bob have been playing WoW since forever. Jim enjoys making gold and is reasonably good at it and as a result he always a bit to spare which he will spend on luxuries when he has enough. Bob struggles to make gold and doesn't really enjoy it, so he grinds what he needs to pay for repairs and consumables which he buys from the AH.

Then one day Blizzard introduces the token. Jim decides he would rather save a bit of real money and sacrifice the luxuries he normally spends his excess gold on. Bob decides he makes enough money IRL that he'd rather pay for a token in order to skip the tedium of making gold to pay for his necessities.

The nett result is:
1) Less gold being generated between Jim and Bob and entering the economy (because Bob no longer generates)
2) The same amount gold still gets sunk into repairs etc
3) Less gold being spent on the AH (because Jim buys less)

----> Deflation




Not true. The very reason these people have all this gold is because they are good at making gold. Some of them may be hoarders, sure, but that doesn't mean all, or even most of those buying tokens are.

I can use myself as an example: I buy tokens with gold. But I have never been in a position where I don't have something I would want to spend my gold on if there were no tokens. My motivation for being effective at making gold was to buy mounts. First the vendor mounts, then the TCG mounts, then the BMAH mounts. And when I finally acquired the Swift Zulian Tiger for a cool 10M, I already had a long list of other stuff that I wanted to spend my gold on.

The simple fact is that my spending gold on tokens slowed my spending on other stuff like Xmogs and pets and mounts. It still does today. Hell I even record my spending, so I can tell you that between January 2019 and December 2020 (two years) I spent 19M gold on ingame collectables (including a mix of gold sink items and items bought from other players) and 5.5M on tokens (used to pay for game time and shop collectables). Another thing: During those two years, my gold stockpile decreased by 5M.

That 5.5M wasn't gold that was sitting outside of the economy. It was gold that would have been spent, by me, on more collectables.


And do you know why I know that the gold would have been spent rather than sitting gathering dust? Because of inflation. Inflation that predated tokens btw. Inflation literally kills the value of gold stockpiles. When I started collecting TCG mounts I think I spent 70k on the white rhino. That was early in WotLK. Near the end of Cata I finally acquired my spectral tiger for a price of 1M gold. You look at the price of those mounts today, if I had sat on that gold instead of spending it, I would not be in a position today to even come close to buying those items. This is something I realised very early on, so I was always buying my next mount as soon as I could afford it. There is just no good sense in sitting on gold.

So your narrative of token buyers being these WoW billionaires who simply don't ever spend their gold is nonsensical if we're being honest. It just doesn't make that most of the players who are smart enough and driven enough to make huge amounts of gold would

1) do so for no reason at all
2) watch it erode away to inflation

Most people are driven to make gold because they have objectives and things they want to spend it on. And even if they somehow landed up with more than they could spend, watching it all devalue due to inflation would be a very strong reason to stop bothering. And again, I am not saying that this doesn't ever happen, just I think it happens a lot less than you'd like to believe (and have us believe).



How do you know that? How do you know that the "sucker" didn't buy that gold in order to acquire a mount from a vendor? How do you know that the "sucker" isn't selling tokens because he literally cba to grind the gold he needs to repair his gear while raid-logging? How do you know that prior to the advent of tokens, the "sucker" didn't go out and grind for the gold he needed?

The fact is you have no clue how that token gold is being spent, or whether the spending habits of the "sucker" changed at all. You're just so fixated on this hypothetical idea that if some gold transfers from a player who wasn't ever going to spend it to someone who would that this would cause inflation, that you've completely failed to analyse the problem space. Critically you've also ignored the most obvious form of validation - namely looking to see whether there has been this massive surge in inflation that correlates with the introduction of tokens - which again - is conspicuous by its absence. That alone should be a hint that your theory cannot be accurate.



At least I have an argument. All you have is a bunch of baseless assertions and simple principles that you think prove something they do not. Not even close.

- - - Updated - - -



And that is just the first flaw in his dream...

Blizzard tried for years to eradicate gold sellers and botters and boosters. But they just kept popping up like mushrooms. Tokens have literally helped to reduce every one of the issues he listed more effectively than any other strategy deployed in the past.

All of this nonsense makes no difference. The person selling the gold doesn’t want it, so it’s clear they won’t spend it so it would be effectively dead, having no influence of the economy. As soon as someone else buys it, the chances of that gold being used go up massively why else did they buy it? - there is no getting around that. Yeah, if they use it on a Blizzard gold sink it makes no difference but anything else it certainly will. Worse still, there is now far more incentive for people to grind gold since it has a real monetary value further increasing gold in the game – which…. they give to people who then spend it!

I honestly can’t understand why anyone would defend any of it in any case, regardless of the fact that Blizzard allow it (providing of course they get their cut) it still cheats the game and everyone who plays it properly. What’s next, bots keep popping up like mushrooms. soooo...introducing Blizzard bot, automate your gameplay without the risk of being banned! Honestly fanboys will say black is white to defend this morally bankrupt company.

[Raelbo]

All of this nonsense makes no difference. The person selling the gold doesn’t want it, so it’s clear they won’t spend it so it would be effectively dead, having no influence of the economy.

This is a ridiculous statement based upon a nonsense assumption.

Gold, like money IRL, is something almost everyone wants. But we also want the things we can buy with it. Just because someone decided to spend their gold on a token doesn't mean they wouldn't end up spending it on something else. It simply means that the person buying the token values the IRL money saved over whatever else it was that they were planning to spend the gold on. I understand this because it is my personal approach. Why it is that you refuse to accept this is a mystery. Why you refuse to listen to logic and reason is also a mystery, but I would suggest if you're going to follow this attitude that there is little point in participating in a forum like this.

As soon as someone else buys it, the chances of that gold being used go up massively why else did they buy it? - there is no getting around that.

You keep on saying this in spite of the fact that I have rebutted it with reasons. Either back your statement with an actual argument or drop it. As I said numerous times now, what you say is almost certainly true in the case of some players, but is most certainly not true in the case of other players. Secondly, if the person buying the gold spends it on a mount (eg the Longboi) then that gold is removed from the economy anyway and doesn't affect inflation.

These two facts combined mean that it is possible for token transactions to either exert a nett positive inflationary effect or a deflationary effect.

Worse still, there is now far more incentive for people to grind gold since it has a real monetary value further increasing gold in the game

Again, this statement is unsubstantiated and false. While it may apply to some players, you certainly cannot generalise:

1) Most people who have the amount of gold necessary to afford to buy tokens get their gold from the AH. No grinding there
2) Because tokens are redeemed for Blizzard balance, not cash, the real incentive to grind for gold is not very strong.
3) Goldsellers, on the other hand, are highly incentivized to grind gold because they make real money out of it. By competing with goldsellers, the token undercuts their efforts and reduces their activities.
4) Some players who are buy gold with tokens end up grinding less for gold because they no longer have to.

I honestly can’t understand why anyone would defend any of it in any case

I am not defending anything. I just don't agree with your point of view on the basis that it is massively flawed, irrational and illogical. And I have gone to pains to explain the fundamental problems with it. If anything, it is you who seems to be trying to fabricate an argument to support your personal dislike of the feature, and that is just disingenuous.

Try starting with an honest assessment of the facts, thinking properly about the issue, and then drawing your conclusions from that rather than starting with a conclusion and working backwards.

regardless of the fact that Blizzard allow it (providing of course they get their cut) it still cheats the game and everyone who plays it properly.

You are entitled to this opinion. But I think you need to recognise that it is just an opinion, and you need to stop trying to use this opinion to drive an argument that should be based on facts and reason.

What’s next, bots keep popping up like mushrooms. soooo...introducing Blizzard bot, automate your gameplay without the risk of being banned! Honestly fanboys will say black is white to defend this morally bankrupt company.

If that ever happens I'll be the first to support your crusade against it. But right now all you're doing is a presenting a really poor attempt at a slippery slope fallacy. There is zero basis for believing this would ever be the case, and trying to compare such an idea to tokens is dishonest.

[MrFawlty]

This is a ridiculous statement based upon a nonsense assumption.

Gold, like money IRL, is something almost everyone wants. But we also want the things we can buy with it. Just because someone decided to spend their gold on a token doesn't mean they wouldn't end up spending it on something else. It simply means that the person buying the token values the IRL money saved over whatever else it was that they were planning to spend the gold on. I understand this because it is my personal approach. Why it is that you refuse to accept this is a mystery. Why you refuse to listen to logic and reason is also a mystery, but I would suggest if you're going to follow this attitude that there is little point in participating in a forum like this.



You keep on saying this in spite of the fact that I have rebutted it with reasons. Either back your statement with an actual argument or drop it. As I said numerous times now, what you say is almost certainly true in the case of some players, but is most certainly not true in the case of other players. Secondly, if the person buying the gold spends it on a mount (eg the Longboi) then that gold is removed from the economy anyway and doesn't affect inflation.

These two facts combined mean that it is possible for token transactions to either exert a nett positive inflationary effect or a deflationary effect.



Again, this statement is unsubstantiated and false. While it may apply to some players, you certainly cannot generalise:

1) Most people who have the amount of gold necessary to afford to buy tokens get their gold from the AH. No grinding there
2) Because tokens are redeemed for Blizzard balance, not cash, the real incentive to grind for gold is not very strong.
3) Goldsellers, on the other hand, are highly incentivized to grind gold because they make real money out of it. By competing with goldsellers, the token undercuts their efforts and reduces their activities.
4) Some players who are buy gold with tokens end up grinding less for gold because they no longer have to.



I am not defending anything. I just don't agree with your point of view on the basis that it is massively flawed, irrational and illogical. And I have gone to pains to explain the fundamental problems with it. If anything, it is you who seems to be trying to fabricate an argument to support your personal dislike of the feature, and that is just disingenuous.

Try starting with an honest assessment of the facts, thinking properly about the issue, and then drawing your conclusions from that rather than starting with a conclusion and working backwards.



You are entitled to this opinion. But I think you need to recognise that it is just an opinion, and you need to stop trying to use this opinion to drive an argument that should be based on facts and reason.



If that ever happens I'll be the first to support your crusade against it. But right now all you're doing is a presenting a really poor attempt at a slippery slope fallacy. There is zero basis for believing this would ever be the case, and trying to compare such an idea to tokens is dishonest.

I honestly don’t think you understand how inflation works. You increase spending, you increase inflation - its that simple. Even Blizzard themselves said that selling gold has a large impact on the game economy - admitterly when they didnt do it themselves. To suggest that someone buying the token might have bought something else is an appallingly weak argument, by definition the gold is surplus to them. To suggest that in game gold is doesn’t have a monetary value when it actually saves the player the sub fee is even weaker and clutching at straws.

There are plenty of articles on line explain inflation in Wow and the effects of the game token, you might want to have a look at them. Are they all "massively flawed, irrational and illogical"? they are probably written by people more intelligent than you or I.

[Raelbo]

I honestly don’t think you understand how inflation works. You increase spending, you increase inflation - its that simple.

Knowing an economic principle and understanding inflation are two completely different things, so that is something you need to work on, no offense.

The reality is that inflation is affected by a number of things, the most important of which is money supply versus total real value in the economy. In the real world, increased consumer spending drives a demand for increased money supply, which in turn drives inflation. But it can also be offset by an increase in the size of the economy.

In simple terms, inflation happens when the amount of money available grows faster than the amount of things available to spend that money on. In WoW it is about the amount of goods and services players are able to trade vs the amount of gold in the economy. The amount of spending is actually irrelevant if those two things remain in balance. Yes, spending does increase inflation. But supplying goods/services to the market decreases inflation. And if you want to assess the nett effect of tokens on inflation, you need to consider its effect on both sides of that equation - which is why your argument is fatally flawed.

Even Blizzard themselves said that selling gold has a large impact on the game economy - admitterly when they didnt do it themselves.

As you admit, they were referring to illicit goldseller activity. Those guys have a massive negative effect on the WoW economy, not just inflation, but the economy as a whole, and the way in which regular players get to participate in the economy.

Tokens do not have the same effect at all, because unlike goldseller activity, tokens don't in and of themselves generate new gold.

To suggest that someone buying the token might have bought something else is an appallingly weak argument, by definition the gold is surplus to them.

I explained why you're wrong, so you just tell me I am actually wrong without any warrant or backing? Brilliant dude. Just brilliant.

I mean, seriously, you're the one asserting, without backing or warrants, this idea that everyone who buys tokens was just sitting on piles of gold that they would never have spent. I gave you an example of how I (a gold seller/token buyer) disprove this supposed 'rule' you imagine to be true. I even explained why it makes little or no sense for WoW scrooges to sit on gold indefinitely (because inflation kills those savings). But you're clearly not really interested in listening, only in lecturing - on a subject you're clearly quite inept at. lol

To suggest that in game gold is doesn’t have a monetary value when it actually saves the player the sub fee is even weaker and clutching at straws.

I made no such suggestion. What I did say is that the token doesn't allow you to obtain cash. I even bolded it to emphasize the fact that having monetary value is not the same as getting cold, hard cash in hand. To put it in simple terms, WoW tokens cannot put me in a better financial position than simply not buying stuff (including WoW game time) from the Blizzard shop.

So you're being dishonest...again. If you can't argue against what I am actually saying, and have to invent words to attribute to me, that just demonstrates how useless your argument is.

There are plenty of articles on line explain inflation in Wow and the effects of the game token, you might want to have a look at them. Are they all "massively flawed, irrational and illogical"? they are probably written by people more intelligent than you or I.

Firstly, if you're going to claim that there is evidence online, then bloody well cite it. Because yeah there is a lot of stuff online that talks about the effect of WoW tokens on inflation. All I had to do was google "wow token inflation", and this was the first hit I got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGayXFQ5HW4

Sums it up pretty nicely if you ask me, well reasoned, logical, rational. Except it supports what I have been saying (He also makes a comment about how it is common myth that tokens cause inflation)

And while I have little doubt that if you're looking for an opinion piece online to support your argument, you'll have little trouble finding it, your assertion that the author is smarter than you or I is likely to be dubious. I mean you're welcome to speak for yourself, but you don't know me. I mean I have no qualms on deferring my opinion to an actual qualified expert on the subjects of both economics and WoW (the handful of them who exist) but honestly, the average person writing an internet piece on this, at best, a journalist and a gamer (or more likely just a hack with a modicum of writing ability), not a rocket scientist. Lol.

[MrFawlty]

Knowing an economic principle and understanding inflation are two completely different things, so that is something you need to work on, no offense.

The reality is that inflation is affected by a number of things, the most important of which is money supply versus total real value in the economy. In the real world, increased consumer spending drives a demand for increased money supply, which in turn drives inflation. But it can also be offset by an increase in the size of the economy.

In simple terms, inflation happens when the amount of money available grows faster than the amount of things available to spend that money on. In WoW it is about the amount of goods and services players are able to trade vs the amount of gold in the economy. The amount of spending is actually irrelevant if those two things remain in balance. Yes, spending does increase inflation. But supplying goods/services to the market decreases inflation. And if you want to assess the nett effect of tokens on inflation, you need to consider its effect on both sides of that equation - which is why your argument is fatally flawed.



As you admit, they were referring to illicit goldseller activity. Those guys have a massive negative effect on the WoW economy, not just inflation, but the economy as a whole, and the way in which regular players get to participate in the economy.

Tokens do not have the same effect at all, because unlike goldseller activity, tokens don't in and of themselves generate new gold.



I explained why you're wrong, so you just tell me I am actually wrong without any warrant or backing? Brilliant dude. Just brilliant.

I mean, seriously, you're the one asserting, without backing or warrants, this idea that everyone who buys tokens was just sitting on piles of gold that they would never have spent. I gave you an example of how I (a gold seller/token buyer) disprove this supposed 'rule' you imagine to be true. I even explained why it makes little or no sense for WoW scrooges to sit on gold indefinitely (because inflation kills those savings). But you're clearly not really interested in listening, only in lecturing - on a subject you're clearly quite inept at. lol



I made no such suggestion. What I did say is that the token doesn't allow you to obtain cash. I even bolded it to emphasize the fact that having monetary value is not the same as getting cold, hard cash in hand. To put it in simple terms, WoW tokens cannot put me in a better financial position than simply not buying stuff (including WoW game time) from the Blizzard shop.

So you're being dishonest...again. If you can't argue against what I am actually saying, and have to invent words to attribute to me, that just demonstrates how useless your argument is.





Firstly, if you're going to claim that there is evidence online, then bloody well cite it. Because yeah there is a lot of stuff online that talks about the effect of WoW tokens on inflation. All I had to do was google "wow token inflation", and this was the first hit I got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGayXFQ5HW4

Sums it up pretty nicely if you ask me, well reasoned, logical, rational. Except it supports what I have been saying (He also makes a comment about how it is common myth that tokens cause inflation)

And while I have little doubt that if you're looking for an opinion piece online to support your argument, you'll have little trouble finding it, your assertion that the author is smarter than you or I is likely to be dubious. I mean you're welcome to speak for yourself, but you don't know me. I mean I have no qualms on deferring my opinion to an actual qualified expert on the subjects of both economics and WoW (the handful of them who exist) but honestly, the average person writing an internet piece on this, at best, a journalist and a gamer (or more likely just a hack with a modicum of writing ability), not a rocket scientist. Lol.

LOL All of this nonsense changes nothing. There are plenty of sources that discuss it even Blizzard themselves admit to adverse effects on server economy...you think that has gone down since they had promoted it?. Finding a fellow fanboy making similar dubious arguments to you doesn’t cut it, I’m sorry.

Gold has a monetary value increasing the value of grinding it. How paying someone’s sub fee isn’t classed effectively as cash in your world boggles my mind.
Selling gold gives it to people that spend. Yes people did sit there with gold they couldn’t spend what else could they do with it?
Two factors you can’t deny and both of which cause inflation. All your coulds maybes and might dos don’t change that.

You have to remember, the people who buy gold can’t be bothered to obtain it. They were never going to affect the economy. Now, thanks to the token they can and do. And this is happening increasingly.

[Kantoro]

All your options suck. Did not vote.

[Raelbo]

LOL All of this nonsense changes nothing. There are plenty of sources that discuss it even Blizzard themselves admit to adverse effects on server economy...you think that has gone down since they had promoted it?. Finding a fellow fanboy making similar dubious arguments to you doesn’t cut it, I’m sorry.

Already countered. You're just repeating yourself and demonstrating once again that you lack the ability to put together a proper argument. This strongly suggests that there are serious and fundamental problems with the position you're trying to argue.

And resorting to ad hominem, calling me and the source I quoted "fanboys" while conveniently continuing to dodge the arguments only weakens your position further.

Gold has a monetary value increasing the value of grinding it. How paying someone’s sub fee isn’t classed effectively as cash in your world boggles my mind.

Again, I already explained it. Either you lack the ability or the willingness to read and try to understand what I wrote. Either way, you shouldn't be responding if you haven't.

Selling gold gives it to people that spend. Yes people did sit there with gold they couldn’t spend what else could they do with it?

Let's see...just off the top of my head: Mounts, Pets, Transmogs, BoEs, funding a guild, helping a friend, buying a boost. There is literally no limit to how much gold you can spend on stuff in this game. The reason people choose to rather spend that gold on tokens is simply that those people would value saving a few $$ to having an overpriced piece of transmog gear, or maybe would rather play for free for six months than buy a ring with Infinite Stars 3. Take the token out of the equation and that's what they would spend their gold on.



Just face it dude, you're completely out of your depth in this discussion. Go figure out how to construct an argument, how to debate, and how to counter what someone is saying before wasting everyone's time with this drivel. Thanks.

[MrFawlty]

Already countered. You're just repeating yourself and demonstrating once again that you lack the ability to put together a proper argument. This strongly suggests that there are serious and fundamental problems with the position you're trying to argue.

And resorting to ad hominem, calling me and the source I quoted "fanboys" while conveniently continuing to dodge the arguments only weakens your position further.



Again, I already explained it. Either you lack the ability or the willingness to read and try to understand what I wrote. Either way, you shouldn't be responding if you haven't.



Let's see...just off the top of my head: Mounts, Pets, Transmogs, BoEs, funding a guild, helping a friend, buying a boost. There is literally no limit to how much gold you can spend on stuff in this game. The reason people choose to rather spend that gold on tokens is simply that those people would value saving a few $$ to having an overpriced piece of transmog gear, or maybe would rather play for free for six months than buy a ring with Infinite Stars 3. Take the token out of the equation and that's what they would spend their gold on.



Just face it dude, you're completely out of your depth in this discussion. Go figure out how to construct an argument, how to debate, and how to counter what someone is saying before wasting everyone's time with this drivel. Thanks.

LOL all your arguments don’t make any sense! How can literally saving you money on a sub fee not put you in a better financial position?
As for ooo let me quote all the things you can buy with gold, it’s an utter irrelevance - if the gold is suplus to their requirements they don’t want any of this stuff.
Finally, if anything the only persons time Im wasting is your time. TBH with you I barely read the reams of made up excuses you come up because as I pointed out above they are nonsensical. I just pop on occasionally and remind you of the 2 facts that for some strange reason you think you can counter.

[Raelbo]

LOL all your arguments don’t make any sense! How can literally saving you money on a sub fee not put you in a better financial position?

Lol. How can you not get it? (and yet still pretend to be qualified to be having this discussion!)

If I have $0 in my bank account, there is no way that tokens can increase that balance. All that tokens can give me is stuff from Blizzard - whether that be game time, pets, mounts, transmogs, other stuff for other games etc. I can reduce the amount of money leaving my bank account to get all this stuff, but I can save just as much money by simply not buying any of that meaningless shit.

When a goldseller receives cash from another player however, their bank balance will go up. A goldseller can actually use the money on stuff in the real world.

If you can't understand how the latter is a much stronger financial incentive, then I don't know what to tell you at this point.

As for ooo let me quote all the things you can buy with gold, it’s an utter irrelevance - if the gold is suplus to their requirements they don’t want any of this stuff.

That is completely asinine considering you're the one who asked the question.

Not to mention that you're conflating wants and needs. Very few people on the planet have enough money that they can buy everything they want. What we spend our money on is based on our personal set of priorities and values and almost all of us have a lot of stuff we'd like to spend money on, but can't because we simply do not have enough. The same is true with spending gold in WoW. I can speak for myself that, as a player who buys tokens with my gold, I would not have a shortage of things that I would be spending my gold on if not for tokens. Which is enough to disprove your argument there. I can also tell you that our raid leader also mentioned once that the amount of gold available to the guild (for buying consumables for raids and for repairs) had become a bit more constrained since tokens came out. Yet another example disproving your claim.


Again, how you cannot get this concept boggles my mind and just speaks to your competence on this topic.

Finally, if anything the only persons time Im wasting is your time. TBH with you I barely read the reams of made up excuses you come up because as I pointed out above they are nonsensical.

Yeah, well if you're not going to bother even reading my argument, I don't see why you're trying to argue. Because you clearly don't have a cooking clue what you're arguing against. lol

I just pop on occasionally and remind you of the 2 facts that for some strange reason you think you can counter.

My argument is that the "facts" you mention don't prove what you think they do. If you actually had a clue, you would know that an argument starts with a claim, backed up by grounds (facts and evidence), linked to the claim with warrants.

Check this out to learn please.

Your argument is literally worthless because you have zero warrants. You have made a claim, and then you quote a fact, without ever bothering to consider whether that fact actually proves anything. And no, it doesn't. And if you bothered to read my argument (which objectively meets all the criteria laid out above), you would even see that I acknowledge your facts, but am able to rebut your claim because the facts alone is insufficient to support the claim.

Yes, it is a fact that if gold is transferred from a player who had no intention of ever spending that gold, to a player who would spend that gold, this would have a positive effect on inflation in the game.

But to figure out the nett effect of the token on inflation, you have to consider all the factors at play. And then you have to weigh these effects up. All you did was make a ridiculous assumption that all gold being transferred via tokens was from players who never spend it (demonstrably false), while completely ignoring every other effect going on with tokens. And you think have a compelling argument? Maybe to the simple minded, but not to anyone with any ability to think critically.

Sorry dude, but trying to be condescending when you're this bad at putting together a cogent argument is just plain insulting. At this stage, pretty much the only thing you've demonstrated is that you have a personal issue with Blizzard which has clouded your ability to look at the token objectively. You're free to dislike it as much as you like, but that does not mean there actually anything wrong with it, or that it is bad for the game (much though you wish it was). And if you want to be taken seriously in your criticism of it, you're going to need to do a hell of a lot better than this.

[MrFawlty]

Lol. How can you not get it? (and yet still pretend to be qualified to be having this discussion!)

If I have $0 in my bank account, there is no way that tokens can increase that balance. All that tokens can give me is stuff from Blizzard - whether that be game time, pets, mounts, transmogs, other stuff for other games etc. I can reduce the amount of money leaving my bank account to get all this stuff, but I can save just as much money by simply not buying any of that meaningless shit.

When a goldseller receives cash from another player however, their bank balance will go up. A goldseller can actually use the money on stuff in the real world.

If you can't understand how the latter is a much stronger financial incentive, then I don't know what to tell you at this point.



That is completely asinine considering you're the one who asked the question.

Not to mention that you're conflating wants and needs. Very few people on the planet have enough money that they can buy everything they want. What we spend our money on is based on our personal set of priorities and values and almost all of us have a lot of stuff we'd like to spend money on, but can't because we simply do not have enough. The same is true with spending gold in WoW. I can speak for myself that, as a player who buys tokens with my gold, I would not have a shortage of things that I would be spending my gold on if not for tokens. Which is enough to disprove your argument there. I can also tell you that our raid leader also mentioned once that the amount of gold available to the guild (for buying consumables for raids and for repairs) had become a bit more constrained since tokens came out. Yet another example disproving your claim.


Again, how you cannot get this concept boggles my mind and just speaks to your competence on this topic.



Yeah, well if you're not going to bother even reading my argument, I don't see why you're trying to argue. Because you clearly don't have a cooking clue what you're arguing against. lol



My argument is that the "facts" you mention don't prove what you think they do. If you actually had a clue, you would know that an argument starts with a claim, backed up by grounds (facts and evidence), linked to the claim with warrants.

Check this out to learn please.

Your argument is literally worthless because you have zero warrants. You have made a claim, and then you quote a fact, without ever bothering to consider whether that fact actually proves anything. And no, it doesn't. And if you bothered to read my argument (which objectively meets all the criteria laid out above), you would even see that I acknowledge your facts, but am able to rebut your claim because the facts alone is insufficient to support the claim.

Yes, it is a fact that if gold is transferred from a player who had no intention of ever spending that gold, to a player who would spend that gold, this would have a positive effect on inflation in the game.

But to figure out the nett effect of the token on inflation, you have to consider all the factors at play. And then you have to weigh these effects up. All you did was make a ridiculous assumption that all gold being transferred via tokens was from players who never spend it (demonstrably false), while completely ignoring every other effect going on with tokens. And you think have a compelling argument? Maybe to the simple minded, but not to anyone with any ability to think critically.

Sorry dude, but trying to be condescending when you're this bad at putting together a cogent argument is just plain insulting. At this stage, pretty much the only thing you've demonstrated is that you have a personal issue with Blizzard which has clouded your ability to look at the token objectively. You're free to dislike it as much as you like, but that does not mean there actually anything wrong with it, or that it is bad for the game (much though you wish it was). And if you want to be taken seriously in your criticism of it, you're going to need to do a hell of a lot better than this.

If you get something for free that you were going to buy you are in a better financial position than you would have been. Unfortunately for you and your silly argument anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together has figured this out. In fact, if you had $0 in your account, grinding then selling gold would be your only hope of continuing to play whilst avoiding going overdrawn.

The value of in game items to a player is subjective. Just because you have no shortage of items you want to by (and pay real money for LOL), the seller of the gold does not.

So, in reality, people sell gold because they value the free sub fee more than the in-game items they want, or they don’t want any in game items at all and the gold is surplus and they may as well get some value out of it. It really is that simple.

Finally, remember you are paying to play a game that you find aspects of so boring that you pay more to avoid them. They really are taking the piss out of you.

[MrFrag]

I couldn't really read all the wall of text in this thread but title of the thread is missleading you to somewhere in limbo. Real problems are:
-Boost advertisements in the trade channel,LFG
-Content delays.
Wow Token>Blizzard is happy>Buyer is Happy>Seller is Happy
Gold Selling is aganist the game rules and I'm pretty sure that they are banning lots of players. I hope new content comes faster, so we can actually argue on something that has a meaning :P

[Raelbo]

If you get something for free that you were going to buy you are in a better financial position than you would have been.

I understand what you mean, and you are of course correct. But you're dodging/evading what I am talking about, so you're stating a fact that has no relevance to the argument.

There is no comparison between the financial incentive of having actual $$ transferred into your bank account vs being able to save money on a frivolous recreational activity. It's that simple.

Unfortunately for you and your silly argument anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together has figured this out. In fact, if you had $0 in your account, grinding then selling gold would be your only hope of continuing to play whilst avoiding going overdrawn.

Apart from the snide ad-hominem, what are you trying to prove here? My argument was that the financial incentive to grind for gold to buy tokens is a lot less than the financial incentive to grind gold to sell for actual $$. All you're demonstrating is that the financial incentive for grinding gold to buy tokens is non-zero - a point I never refuted. So why make it?

The value of in game items to a player is subjective. Just because you have no shortage of items you want to by (and pay real money for LOL), the seller of the gold does not.

Again, you really need to work on that reading comprehension mate. I sell gold for tokens. Gold that I would otherwise spend on lots of other stuff.

So, in reality, people sell gold because they value the free sub fee more than the in-game items they want, or they don’t want any in game items at all and the gold is surplus and they may as well get some value out of it. It really is that simple.

Um, yeah, this is exactly what I have been trying to get through to you. You know, I really think you have a reading problem, it's like you half read what someone wrote, see that they disagree with you, and then, because you CANNOT be wrong, you start to argue, without ever bothering to figure out if the person you're arguing against actually has a point.

Finally, remember you are paying to play a game that you find aspects of so boring that you pay more to avoid them. They really are taking the piss out of you.

Yeah, I don't know where you get this idea that I buy gold with tokens, given that I have made it pretty clear I do the obvious. lol

But even if I were, your statement here is still asinine. There is zero requirement in this game to enjoy every aspect of it. I don't care to judge those who spend their money buying gold. It's their money, their business. Ridiculing them for it says a lot more about you and your insecurities which is, I suspect the source of your miserable bitterness towards the token. Let it go dude, you're just harming yourself with this hate.

[MrFawlty]

I understand what you mean, and you are of course correct. But you're dodging/evading what I am talking about, so you're stating a fact that has no relevance to the argument.

There is no comparison between the financial incentive of having actual $$ transferred into your bank account vs being able to save money on a frivolous recreational activity. It's that simple.



Apart from the snide ad-hominem, what are you trying to prove here? My argument was that the financial incentive to grind for gold to buy tokens is a lot less than the financial incentive to grind gold to sell for actual $$. All you're demonstrating is that the financial incentive for grinding gold to buy tokens is non-zero - a point I never refuted. So why make it?



Again, you really need to work on that reading comprehension mate. I sell gold for tokens. Gold that I would otherwise spend on lots of other stuff.



Um, yeah, this is exactly what I have been trying to get through to you. You know, I really think you have a reading problem, it's like you half read what someone wrote, see that they disagree with you, and then, because you CANNOT be wrong, you start to argue, without ever bothering to figure out if the person you're arguing against actually has a point.



Yeah, I don't know where you get this idea that I buy gold with tokens, given that I have made it pretty clear I do the obvious. lol

But even if I were, your statement here is still asinine. There is zero requirement in this game to enjoy every aspect of it. I don't care to judge those who spend their money buying gold. It's their money, their business. Ridiculing them for it says a lot more about you and your insecurities which is, I suspect the source of your miserable bitterness towards the token. Let it go dude, you're just harming yourself with this hate.

Sorry I misunderstood you, I don’t have time or patience to do more than skim through your dissertations that in the end don’t change the obvious situation. Maybe get to the point a bit quicker?

The financial incentive is still there regardless of what you say. This inevitably causes an increase in gold production.

That gold is obviously surplus to you so you sell it to pay a subscription (a strong enough financial incentive for you - the one you think doesn’t exist) to someone who buys something with it resulting in gold that wouldn’t have been spent or at least spent faster than it would have been.

Both these factors increase inflation.

[Raelbo]

Sorry I misunderstood you, I don’t have time or patience to do more than skim through your dissertations that in the end don’t change the obvious situation. Maybe get to the point a bit quicker?

Well since you don't see the inherent obviousness of my assertions, I kinda have to spell it out for you. Maybe try to think a bit more for yourself so others don't have to?

The financial incentive is still there regardless of what you say. This inevitably causes an increase in gold production.

Yes, sure. But it is a much smaller financial incentive than what third party goldsellers have and the consequent increase in gold production is significantly less. Furthermore, now that some people can just buy gold, their incentive to grind for it is reduced.

TL;DR: The amount of extra gold being generated as a result of tokens is IMO pretty small compared to the total amount of gold being generated anyway, and certainly significantly less than what happens with third party goldsellers.

That gold is obviously surplus to you so you sell it to pay a subscription

Surplus in the sense that I don't need it for anything critical to play the game (like repairs, consumables) sure. Surplus in the sense that I wouldn't have found something else to spend it on? Not at all. You have this idea that people who make a lot of gold just like to sit on it and never spend it on anything - but that is an assumption you're making that you either need to back up with some source, or stop making it.

(a strong enough financial incentive for you - the one you think doesn’t exist)

Lol. Again, I never said that the financial incentive was non-existent. You have this bad habit of misrepresenting what I say in your efforts to win the argument. It achieves the opposite.

to someone who buys something with it resulting in gold that wouldn’t have been spent or at least spent faster than it would have been

You continue ignore the issue of what that gold is being spent on. Because if it is spent on a gold sink (eg the brutosaur) then actually that is contributing to deflation.

Both these factors increase inflation.

Again, not something I ever denied. What I have argued are two things:
1) You are grossly exaggerating the likely effect on inflation of these factors
2) You are patently ignoring other factors relating to tokens which counter inflation

Going beyond that, you're so fixated on this fiction you have in your head that tokens are this massive driver of inflation that you've completely failed to consider their overall effect on the WoW economy, which is undoubtedly positive since it helps to ensure that a segment of the playerbase previously excluded in the economy is now more active.

[MrFawlty]

Well since you don't see the inherent obviousness of my assertions, I kinda have to spell it out for you. Maybe try to think a bit more for yourself so others don't have to?



Yes, sure. But it is a much smaller financial incentive than what third party goldsellers have and the consequent increase in gold production is significantly less. Furthermore, now that some people can just buy gold, their incentive to grind for it is reduced.

TL;DR: The amount of extra gold being generated as a result of tokens is IMO pretty small compared to the total amount of gold being generated anyway, and certainly significantly less than what happens with third party goldsellers.



Surplus in the sense that I don't need it for anything critical to play the game (like repairs, consumables) sure. Surplus in the sense that I wouldn't have found something else to spend it on? Not at all. You have this idea that people who make a lot of gold just like to sit on it and never spend it on anything - but that is an assumption you're making that you either need to back up with some source, or stop making it.




Lol. Again, I never said that the financial incentive was non-existent. You have this bad habit of misrepresenting what I say in your efforts to win the argument. It achieves the opposite.



You continue ignore the issue of what that gold is being spent on. Because if it is spent on a gold sink (eg the brutosaur) then actually that is contributing to deflation.



Again, not something I ever denied. What I have argued are two things:
1) You are grossly exaggerating the likely effect on inflation of these factors
2) You are patently ignoring other factors relating to tokens which counter inflation

Going beyond that, you're so fixated on this fiction you have in your head that tokens are this massive driver of inflation that you've completely failed to consider their overall effect on the WoW economy, which is undoubtedly positive since it helps to ensure that a segment of the playerbase previously excluded in the economy is now more active.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree there then. I think Blizzard making something so called "legal" massively increases its use and therefore its effects on the economy not to mention botting since they can now pay for themselves.

[Battlebeard]

lol, morals...

I buy a lot of WoW tokens, A LOT. I feel no shame nor do I feel it affects my moral. I want a lot of stuff in the game that require gold.

It's only 20eu a piece, and for someone in their mid-thirties who have no wife or kids or any other hobbies, who make 20euro an hour, this is nothing really. It makes my game more enjoyable, so I really don't care about morals.