View Poll Results: Is WoW® Token morally the same as gold selling for cash to you?

Voters
214. You may not vote on this poll
  • WoW® Token is morally the same as gold selling

    66 30.84%
  • WoW® Tokens are about the same as gold selling

    34 15.89%
  • WoW® Tokens are morally worse then gold selling

    28 13.08%
  • I really don't care.

    86 40.19%
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  1. #201
    As long as there is a currency that can be exchanged between players for multiple uses, you'll have people interested in buying and selling said currency, just as you have the same kind of interest when it comes to services such as boosts, gear or other items.

    The token is an acceptance of that reality, at least partially. They are the ones who created the currency and the ones that enable the different uses it can have, so it actually makes a lot of sense that they also want to be the ones capitalizing the exchange market for it and as a consequence also want to protect it. So honestly, i don't think there is nothing morally wrong with it unless you are willing to advocate for an MMORPG without trade between players. The real issue is that the 'unofficial' market has more potential to create a worse experience for everyone than the official market has.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The fact that you still aren't paying to attention to my argument is what is ridiculous.



    False. That assertion is entirely contingent on (at least) three assumptions:

    1) That they are putting that gold back into the economy
    2) That they would not otherwise have acquired the gold
    3) That the person providing the gold would not have spent the gold on anything else

    Consider this scenario:

    Jim and Bob have been playing WoW since forever. Jim enjoys making gold and is reasonably good at it and as a result he always a bit to spare which he will spend on luxuries when he has enough. Bob struggles to make gold and doesn't really enjoy it, so he grinds what he needs to pay for repairs and consumables which he buys from the AH.

    Then one day Blizzard introduces the token. Jim decides he would rather save a bit of real money and sacrifice the luxuries he normally spends his excess gold on. Bob decides he makes enough money IRL that he'd rather pay for a token in order to skip the tedium of making gold to pay for his necessities.

    The nett result is:
    1) Less gold being generated between Jim and Bob and entering the economy (because Bob no longer generates)
    2) The same amount gold still gets sunk into repairs etc
    3) Less gold being spent on the AH (because Jim buys less)

    ----> Deflation




    Not true. The very reason these people have all this gold is because they are good at making gold. Some of them may be hoarders, sure, but that doesn't mean all, or even most of those buying tokens are.

    I can use myself as an example: I buy tokens with gold. But I have never been in a position where I don't have something I would want to spend my gold on if there were no tokens. My motivation for being effective at making gold was to buy mounts. First the vendor mounts, then the TCG mounts, then the BMAH mounts. And when I finally acquired the Swift Zulian Tiger for a cool 10M, I already had a long list of other stuff that I wanted to spend my gold on.

    The simple fact is that my spending gold on tokens slowed my spending on other stuff like Xmogs and pets and mounts. It still does today. Hell I even record my spending, so I can tell you that between January 2019 and December 2020 (two years) I spent 19M gold on ingame collectables (including a mix of gold sink items and items bought from other players) and 5.5M on tokens (used to pay for game time and shop collectables). Another thing: During those two years, my gold stockpile decreased by 5M.

    That 5.5M wasn't gold that was sitting outside of the economy. It was gold that would have been spent, by me, on more collectables.


    And do you know why I know that the gold would have been spent rather than sitting gathering dust? Because of inflation. Inflation that predated tokens btw. Inflation literally kills the value of gold stockpiles. When I started collecting TCG mounts I think I spent 70k on the white rhino. That was early in WotLK. Near the end of Cata I finally acquired my spectral tiger for a price of 1M gold. You look at the price of those mounts today, if I had sat on that gold instead of spending it, I would not be in a position today to even come close to buying those items. This is something I realised very early on, so I was always buying my next mount as soon as I could afford it. There is just no good sense in sitting on gold.

    So your narrative of token buyers being these WoW billionaires who simply don't ever spend their gold is nonsensical if we're being honest. It just doesn't make that most of the players who are smart enough and driven enough to make huge amounts of gold would

    1) do so for no reason at all
    2) watch it erode away to inflation

    Most people are driven to make gold because they have objectives and things they want to spend it on. And even if they somehow landed up with more than they could spend, watching it all devalue due to inflation would be a very strong reason to stop bothering. And again, I am not saying that this doesn't ever happen, just I think it happens a lot less than you'd like to believe (and have us believe).



    How do you know that? How do you know that the "sucker" didn't buy that gold in order to acquire a mount from a vendor? How do you know that the "sucker" isn't selling tokens because he literally cba to grind the gold he needs to repair his gear while raid-logging? How do you know that prior to the advent of tokens, the "sucker" didn't go out and grind for the gold he needed?

    The fact is you have no clue how that token gold is being spent, or whether the spending habits of the "sucker" changed at all. You're just so fixated on this hypothetical idea that if some gold transfers from a player who wasn't ever going to spend it to someone who would that this would cause inflation, that you've completely failed to analyse the problem space. Critically you've also ignored the most obvious form of validation - namely looking to see whether there has been this massive surge in inflation that correlates with the introduction of tokens - which again - is conspicuous by its absence. That alone should be a hint that your theory cannot be accurate.



    At least I have an argument. All you have is a bunch of baseless assertions and simple principles that you think prove something they do not. Not even close.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And that is just the first flaw in his dream...

    Blizzard tried for years to eradicate gold sellers and botters and boosters. But they just kept popping up like mushrooms. Tokens have literally helped to reduce every one of the issues he listed more effectively than any other strategy deployed in the past.
    All of this nonsense makes no difference. The person selling the gold doesn’t want it, so it’s clear they won’t spend it so it would be effectively dead, having no influence of the economy. As soon as someone else buys it, the chances of that gold being used go up massively why else did they buy it? - there is no getting around that. Yeah, if they use it on a Blizzard gold sink it makes no difference but anything else it certainly will. Worse still, there is now far more incentive for people to grind gold since it has a real monetary value further increasing gold in the game – which…. they give to people who then spend it!

    I honestly can’t understand why anyone would defend any of it in any case, regardless of the fact that Blizzard allow it (providing of course they get their cut) it still cheats the game and everyone who plays it properly. What’s next, bots keep popping up like mushrooms. soooo...introducing Blizzard bot, automate your gameplay without the risk of being banned! Honestly fanboys will say black is white to defend this morally bankrupt company.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    All of this nonsense makes no difference. The person selling the gold doesn’t want it, so it’s clear they won’t spend it so it would be effectively dead, having no influence of the economy.
    This is a ridiculous statement based upon a nonsense assumption.

    Gold, like money IRL, is something almost everyone wants. But we also want the things we can buy with it. Just because someone decided to spend their gold on a token doesn't mean they wouldn't end up spending it on something else. It simply means that the person buying the token values the IRL money saved over whatever else it was that they were planning to spend the gold on. I understand this because it is my personal approach. Why it is that you refuse to accept this is a mystery. Why you refuse to listen to logic and reason is also a mystery, but I would suggest if you're going to follow this attitude that there is little point in participating in a forum like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    As soon as someone else buys it, the chances of that gold being used go up massively why else did they buy it? - there is no getting around that.
    You keep on saying this in spite of the fact that I have rebutted it with reasons. Either back your statement with an actual argument or drop it. As I said numerous times now, what you say is almost certainly true in the case of some players, but is most certainly not true in the case of other players. Secondly, if the person buying the gold spends it on a mount (eg the Longboi) then that gold is removed from the economy anyway and doesn't affect inflation.

    These two facts combined mean that it is possible for token transactions to either exert a nett positive inflationary effect or a deflationary effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    Worse still, there is now far more incentive for people to grind gold since it has a real monetary value further increasing gold in the game
    Again, this statement is unsubstantiated and false. While it may apply to some players, you certainly cannot generalise:

    1) Most people who have the amount of gold necessary to afford to buy tokens get their gold from the AH. No grinding there
    2) Because tokens are redeemed for Blizzard balance, not cash, the real incentive to grind for gold is not very strong.
    3) Goldsellers, on the other hand, are highly incentivized to grind gold because they make real money out of it. By competing with goldsellers, the token undercuts their efforts and reduces their activities.
    4) Some players who are buy gold with tokens end up grinding less for gold because they no longer have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    I honestly can’t understand why anyone would defend any of it in any case
    I am not defending anything. I just don't agree with your point of view on the basis that it is massively flawed, irrational and illogical. And I have gone to pains to explain the fundamental problems with it. If anything, it is you who seems to be trying to fabricate an argument to support your personal dislike of the feature, and that is just disingenuous.

    Try starting with an honest assessment of the facts, thinking properly about the issue, and then drawing your conclusions from that rather than starting with a conclusion and working backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    regardless of the fact that Blizzard allow it (providing of course they get their cut) it still cheats the game and everyone who plays it properly.
    You are entitled to this opinion. But I think you need to recognise that it is just an opinion, and you need to stop trying to use this opinion to drive an argument that should be based on facts and reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    What’s next, bots keep popping up like mushrooms. soooo...introducing Blizzard bot, automate your gameplay without the risk of being banned! Honestly fanboys will say black is white to defend this morally bankrupt company.
    If that ever happens I'll be the first to support your crusade against it. But right now all you're doing is a presenting a really poor attempt at a slippery slope fallacy. There is zero basis for believing this would ever be the case, and trying to compare such an idea to tokens is dishonest.
    Last edited by Raelbo; Today at 11:01 AM.

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